Replacing your cam chain adjuster

[old guy]

My engine had developed a nasty rattle so at 190k+ miles I figured it was time to replace the cam adjuster. I took off work early today so I could come home and get it done because I have some driving to do tomorrow. The good news is the job went a bit easier than expected. The total job only took about 4 hours. The bad part is that it didn't fix the nasty rattle. If you are planning on changing your cam adjuster here is a little info to make the job go quickly.

First review this DIY from Passatworld. Clicky click It is pretty comprehensive but it has a few unnecessary steps. In the DIY it mentions loosening the exhaust cam bearing caps. There is no need to do that. The exhaust cam can remain in place as is. Also take a look at this video. Clicky click The whole thing is really good but if you don't want to watch a desludge process just jump to the 30 minute mark for removing the cam adjuster.

Obligatory clean engine pic. Not bad for 195K.

[IMG][/IMG]

Time for a few more tips. I purchased a cam adjuster that came with a compression tool. Clicky click You can use a zip tie to hold the new adjuster in the compressed state and remove the compression tool so you can use it to compress the old tensioner for removal.

[IMG][/IMG]

Another tip. Before you start to remove the old tensioner and intake cam use something to wedge the cam chain against the exhaust cam chain sprocket. This will hold the chain securely and prevent it from jumping out of place. As you can see I wedged a piece of vacuum hose between the chain and head so the chain remained in place.

One more. If you loosen the three bolts holding the combi valve in place you can move the combi valve back a little and it gives you more room to maneuver. Don't take the bolts all the way out. just back them off about ¼" so you can rotate the cam adjuster past it easier. Not absolutely required but makes the job easier.

[IMG][/IMG]

And one last tip. Be extremely careful removing the cam bearing cap bolts. You will need a T30 torx driver. The bolts are installed from the factory with some very aggressive form of Locktite and they can be very difficult to break loose. I struggled with the first few and one began to round out the Torx head. I stopped what I was doing and called the local VW dealer to see if I could get a few replacement bolts. No luck. He even checked all the area VW/Audi dealers in a 50 mile radius and nobody had them in stock. So I did what I should have done to begin with and got out my impact wrench. It made a world of difference. Push down hard and use a low impact and the bolts will come right out. If you don't have an impact wrench I would recommend having a few replacement bolts before you start the job.

Unfortunately as I mentioned earlier it didn't fix my nasty rattle. But either way, as you can see the cam adjuster was due for replacement so the work wasn't in vain. Now I just have to figure out where the rattle is coming from

[IMG][/IMG]

[customa4]

Nice write up OG! It's always nice to have pointers from you on write ups.

So what do you think the rattle's coming from?

[old guy]

So what do you think the rattle's coming from?

Still scratching my head. I pulled the timing belt cover off and everything looks OK. The belt is tight and runs smoothly. I used a wrench to take pressure off the serpentine belt while the engine was running and it didn't make any difference. The noise seems to be coming from the center of the motor, maybe a little more from the drivers side. i checked the alternator overrun pulley and it felt fine.

Has anyone ever had a rattle from the oil pump chain drive?

I'm currently at 55k miles on the timing belt/ water pump/ etc so I'm ordering a kit tonight and will change it out some time next week when it comes in. Hope that fixes it.

[diagnosticator]

Since the adjuster doesn't vary the chain tension, it's possible/likely the chain is stretched, and should be replaced. 190K is a really good run for the chain, it doesn't have a zero wear rate. Remove the valve cover and start the engine run it briefly and see if the chain is whipping. Did the rattling noise develop suddenly or gradually get noisy enough to notice? Even a new chain is kinda noisy as well.

[old guy]

Since the adjuster doesn't vary the chain tension, it's possible the chain is stretched, and should be replaced. 190K is a really good run for the chain, it doesn't have a zero wear rate. You could start the engine and run it briefly, and observe the chain with the cover removed to see if it is whipping.

Yeah, I probably should have replaced the chain at the same time. But I would think that if it was coming from a worn chain that changing the chain adjuster would have at least mitigated the rattle a little. As it is it had no affect whatsoever.

[diagnosticator]

Yeah, I probably should have replaced the chain at the same time. But I would think that if it was coming from a worn chain that changing the chain adjuster would have at least mitigated the rattle a little. As it is it had no affect whatsoever.

Yeah, I agree the new adjuster would be expected to reduce the noise, unless the rattle was not caused by the adjuster, and instead was from a loose chain. Did the rattle gradually get noisy enough to notice, or develop suddenly?

[old guy]

Yeah, I agree the new adjuster would be expected to reduce the noise, unless the rattle was not caused by the adjuster, and instead was from a loose chain. Did the rattle gradually get noisy enough to notice, or develop suddenly?

Sorry for the delay. Was ordering a TB kit. It wasn't all at once but it seemed to get worse over a period of a few months. A lot more noticeable in the past few weeks.

Edit: When I removed the cam adjuster clamp the chain felt very tight. Certainly didn't feel like there was any slop. but I know you really can't tell just by feel so that could still be the issue. I'm going to unplug the adjuster solenoid so when I start it in the morning the adjuster won't activate and I will see it it makes any difference in the rattle.

[Toolaa]

I'm going to unplug the adjuster solenoid so when I start it in the morning the adjuster won't activate and I will see it it makes any difference in the rattle.

A while back I was doing the PCV cleanup and decided to replace the VC gasket. When i popped off the VC I saw two scrapes just above the chain.


When i replaced the Adjuster a few weeks later Sprayed the marks with some black spray paint. About two weeks after replacing the adjuster I popped off the cover again and my paint mark was still in tact so I knew that the adjuster was working just fine.

[old guy]

The first thing I did when I removed the cover was to look for any chain slap marks. There were none.

[diagnosticator]

Sorry for the delay. Was ordering a TB kit. It wasn't all at once but it seemed to get worse over a period of a few months. A lot more noticeable in the past few weeks.

Edit: When I removed the cam adjuster clamp the chain felt very tight. Certainly didn't feel like there was any slop. but I know you really can't tell just by feel so that could still be the issue. I'm going to unplug the adjuster solenoid so when I start it in the morning the adjuster won't activate and I will see it it makes any difference in the rattle.

Wear on the sprockets could contribute to the loose chain as well. Hopefully, disconnecting the adjuster solenoid will provide a clue, but I am skeptical. I can't think of any other cause for the rattle since the adjuster is new. The situation with drive chains in general, is once a critical amount of wear develops in the chain and sprockets, the wear rate accelerates sharply.

[walky_talky20]

Fletcher, do you think it might be lifter noise? The sound is little different, and I'm sure you can tell the difference, just thought I'd mention it. I had a pretty loud tick in mine at hot idle. I suspected an exhaust lifter, but also considered it being my aftermarket CCT. I replaced all 8 exhaust lifters while I was in there that one time and it took care of all the noise.

[old guy]

Thanks for the feedback Keith! I don't think it's a lifter. The sound is more like a belt or chain slap. It's not a ticking sound and it isn't rhythmic at all. It's more like rattle................rattle.......rattle, rattle, rattle .......................... rattle .................................. rattle, rattle .................................................. ................... rattle, rattle, rattle rattle ............. Heading out for a bike ride so I'm going to see if unplugging the adjuster makes any difference other than giving me a code for cam not advanced.

[BlazinB5]

Thanks for the guide. Saved in a text document for the future, just in case

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[old guy]

Well I may have found the source of the rattle. On the way back home from my bike ride the turbo started to screech around 3,500 rpm. Pulled the TIP off and I can feel a moderate amount of in/out as well as up/down shaft play on the turbo. I already ordered a TB kit last night. Ordering a turbo replacement today.

Heading out now to Harbor Freight to pick up a cheap oil pressure test kit Clicky click to make sure I don't have an oil pressure problem that caused the turbo to go out. I have never had an oil pressure light come on but it doesn't hurt to check. If the pressure is good I will be stripping everything down tomorrow and getting a rental until all my parts come in. Sigh.....The joys of owning high mileage cars.....

[Toolaa]

When I read your original post it seemed that the problem was happening at idle. I didn't realize the rattle was under load. I had the same thing last year. Sounded like a heat shield or an exhaust rattle and it usually only happened when accelerating up hill . When I took the turbo apart the turbine blades were rubbing against the oil shield.



Are you going to replace it with a stock turbo?

If yours is not totally destroyed I still have the G-Pop rebuild kit that I planned to use to rebuild mine. Heck I'll give it to you if you want to rebuild the old one. If not let me know maybe I'll buy it and rebuild it.

Keep us posted.

[diagnosticator]

I am not wanting to be argumentative here, but I have never heard a turbo rattle. I have dealt with many failed turbos on small to very large diesels and natural gas engines. I don't know of any way a turbo could rattle like you described. Also, because of the very high speeds turbos operate at, when a turbo fails, the bushings go from OK to destroyed quickly, and the turbo transitions from running OK to total destruction in a very short time. I don't mean to say the turbo is not worn out, and should be replaced based on the bushing play you observed. However, turbo shaft bushings have a lot of clearance normally. When operating, the bushings supporting the turbo shaft, float on a film of lube oil. The film of oil supports the bushings in the housing. There is lube oil clearance on the OD of the bushings, as well as oil film clearance between the shaft and the ID of the bushings. The thick hydrodynamic film is created by the rotation of the shaft in the bushings in the ID and supplied oil pressure fills the clearance on the OD of the bushings. The oil film filling the clearance on the bushing OD, dampens the radial oscillations that would otherwise result in instability of the rotating assembly with failure of the turbo shaft occurring quickly. Consequently, with the turbo stopped, there is normally a lot of radial motion in the bushings and shaft fit. There is also a lot of end play due to the way the shaft thrust bearing supports the thrust load of the shaft also having a wedge of lube oil between the thrust flange on the shaft and the beveled surfaces on the thrust bearing face. Bushing, shaft and thrust bearing wear occurs during engine start up and shut down. During normal operation there is no contact between the shaft and bushings or the thrust bearing faces.

[old guy]

I agree with you. That's why I'm checking the oil pressure tomorrow to make sure I don't have a low pressure issue causing the cam adjuster to rattle. The high pitch screech I heard today I'm pretty sure is coming from the turbo so that added with the shaft play is enough to warrant replacing the turbo. But I'm still very worried about the rattle. After I check the oil pressure I can decide if I want to pull off the oil pan and check the pick-up tube and oil pump. Either way I'm pulling the TB / tensioner / tensioner pulley out tomorrow to see what they look like. I'm kinda hoping I find something like a bad bearing in the pulley.

[old guy]

When I read your original post it seemed that the problem was happening at idle. I didn't realize the rattle was under load. I had the same thing last year. Sounded like a heat shield or an exhaust rattle and it usually only happened when accelerating up hill . When I took the turbo apart the turbine blades were rubbing against the oil shield.

Are you going to replace it with a stock turbo?

If yours is not totally destroyed I still have the G-Pop rebuild kit that I planned to use to rebuild mine. Heck I'll give it to you if you want to rebuild the old one. If not let me know maybe I'll buy it and rebuild it.

Keep us posted.

The rattle was faint but there at idle. As I accelerated it increased along with the engine speed. I already ordered a replacement kit and it should be in Wednesday. The turbo I am pulling out is a Borg Warner that I put in about 90k miles ago. If you are interested in using it for a rebuild just let me know and it's yours. I really don't want to take the time to rebuild anything. By the time my replacement gets here I plan to have everything in place to do a quick install and hit the road.

[Toolaa]

I am not wanting to be argumentative here, but I have never heard a turbo rattle.

I will differ to your experience here and the very informative description.

However there was a rattle before I determined the turbo failed. (It did progress very quickly less than 1000mi.) It really did sound like some sort loose heat shield tapping against the exhaust, but I never found any other problem. Eventually I pulled the TIP and realized that the axial play was about 1/4". Is it possible that during the exhaust pressure buildup before boost the blades were rubbing against the oil shield and made the rattle sound around 2000-2500 rpm. You can see that the blades on my turbine were worn more than a few mm the middle in a curved shape. The rattle sound stopped once turbine speed was high enough to create boost pressure.

I'm curious to see how OG's turbo failed.

[diagnosticator]

I don't doubt your experience with the rattle in the turbo you described. I have never experienced that symptom however. I think that the nature of the rattle noise in your case, was different than the rattle noise usually associated with the cam chain, but it could be a subtle difference. Turbo failures are unique events, each failure is different in the specific damage occurring. The same types of failures usually exhibit unique effects. The damage on the parts can be similar but never the same.

[diagnosticator]

That is a worthwhile check, on the belt drive and oil pressure. the rattle could be a bad belt sprocket pulley bearing as you suppose. I have been commenting with the premise the rattle noise is in the head. Disconnecting the cam timing adjuster solenoid had no effect on the rattle noise? If the chain is loose, the resulting noise from the chain whipping, would vary with the position of the timing adjuster, only because the "slack" in the chain is shifted above or below the cam sprocket centerline, and that would effect the noise from a loose chain. the adjuster position does not effect the cam chain tension much at all, that being mostly a fixed value as the adjuster shifts the cam timing. I believe the turbo noise and the rattle noise are separate issues only being a coincidence.

[DiertyEuroSpec]

That is a worthwhile check, on the belt drive and oil pressure. the rattle could be a bad belt sprocket pulley bearing as you suppose. I have been commenting with the premise the rattle noise is in the head. Disconnecting the cam timing adjuster solenoid had no effect on the rattle noise? If the chain is loose, the resulting noise from the chain whipping, would vary with the position of the timing adjuster, only because the "slack" in the chain is shifted above or below the cam sprocket centerline, and that would effect the noise from a loose chain. the adjuster position does not effect the cam chain tension much at all, that being mostly a fixed value as the adjuster shifts the cam timing. I believe the turbo noise and the rattle noise are separate issues only being a coincidence.

I also highly recommend this. I have a Power steering pump that was making a rattle that sounded almost identical to a CCT rattle. However it basically disappears at higher RPMs and exists mainly at idle...but hey you never know.

Also about those cam bearing caps I thought the torque on them was 8 lbs or nm (forget the units) but this is not much at all. When replacing mine I didn't use any lockite as it was noted in the Bentley. Is loctite a requirement every time they are removed and reinstalled or only added at the factory??

[daihashi]

I don't doubt your experience with the rattle in the turbo you described.

I wish I still had 2 of my older turbos to take pictures of. One was banging against the oil shield, and another began the disintegration process by banging against the housing itself. In both these cases a rattle was a definite symptom. For what its worth, I also thought it was weird to get a rattle from the turbo... I'm much more used to them simply grenading in these situations.

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[MikTip]

Have someone press the clutch pedal during search for rattle...see if pushing in the clutch makes rattle go away.

My single mass flywheel allows allot of gear rattle to be heard..

[vhstejskal]

Have someone press the clutch pedal during search for rattle...see if pushing in the clutch makes rattle go away.

My single mass flywheel allows allot of gear rattle to be heard..

Is this the JHM RS4 clutch kit you speak of?

[MikTip]

Is this the JHM RS4 clutch kit you speak of?

With its 9 pound flywheel...yes.

I also have stiffer engine mounts and front snub...

[vhstejskal]

With its 9 pound flywheel...yes.

I also have stiffer engine mounts and front snub...

Ahh yes all that combined makes sense.

[old guy]

Problem located. Bad water pump. VERY bad water pump. Metal impeller Geba brand with only 55k miles on it. I can't believe it wasn't pouring out coolant. it just had a few dribbles coming out of the seal. Took it out and spun it by hand. Sounded and felt like a rock tumbler. New TB kit on the way along with a new turbo. I probably could have kept the turbo a little longer but it does have a bit of play and 90k+ miles on it. the OEM only lasted 100k miles so it's easier to do now while i have the front off of the car.

With a new TB kit, turbo and cam adjuster I should be good for another 100k miles

Cheers!

[IMG][/IMG]

[MikTip]

Problem located. Bad water pump. VERY bad water pump. Metal impeller Geba brand with only 55k miles on it. I can't believe it wasn't pouring out coolant. it just had a few dribbles coming out of the seal. Took it out and spun it by hand. Sounded and felt like a rock tumbler. New TB kit on the way along with a new turbo. I probably could have kept the turbo a little longer but it does have a bit of play and 90k+ miles on it. the OEM only lasted 100k miles so it's easier to do now while i have the front off of the car.

With a new TB kit, turbo and cam adjuster I should be good for another 100k miles

Cheers!

Good ya found it!

[Toolaa]

With a new TB kit, turbo and cam adjuster I should be good for another 100k miles

Thats good news.

Are you still going to do the oil pressure test now that you know it wasn't related to the problem? I would like to know what readings you are getting at idle and higher RPM after 190KMi. I'm trying to benchmark my own recent readings at 166k.

[old guy]

I still plan on doing it. I picked up the test kit from Harbor Freight. It listed a M10 adapter but there wasn't one in the kit. I will pick up one somewhere locally and run the test after I get it running later this week.

[n7plus1]

what turbo are you going to pick up?

also, which CCT did you get?

[old guy]

what turbo are you going to pick up?

also, which CCT did you get?

I got the cam adjuster from Europaparts. Link is in the first post. I picked up a Borg Warner K03 with an installation kit from Byautoparts for $600. It isn’t listed on their website but if you ask it is available. They also have K04’s and their own label K03 kits for $400 with a 1 year warranty. I asked them about their own label and was told that they have sold 1,074 to date with a 4% warranty return rate. He also told me that they have sold 179 of the Borg Warner K03 turbos with a 2% return rate.

I'm sticking with a K03 because with approaching 200k miles I'm more concerned with longevity of the rest of the car than I am with increasing performance.

[n7plus1]

I got the cam adjuster from Europaparts. Link is in the first post. I picked up a Borg Warner K03 with an installation kit from Byautoparts for $600. It isn’t listed on their website but if you ask it is available. They also have K04’s and their own label K03 kits for $400 with a 1 year warranty. I asked them about their own label and was told that they have sold 1,074 to date with a 4% warranty return rate. He also told me that they have sold 179 of the Borg Warner K03 turbos with a 2% return rate.

I'm sticking with a K03 because with approaching 200k miles I'm more concerned with longevity of the rest of the car than I am with increasing performance.

sounds good Flether, thanks for your input.

[A4_Quattro]

I have this exact same problem. I replaced the CCT, TB, water pump and even the accessory belt tensioner. I'm beginning to think I should have replaced the cam chain as well while I was in there. Its not slapping on the valve cover and when I put my hand on the valve cover I feel no contact but still have a persistent rattle/ticking that drives me insane.

[n7plus1]

nobody suggested a valve adjustment?

[diagnosticator]

nobody suggested a valve adjustment?

The valve lifters are hydraulic, and there is no way to adjust the valves.

[diagnosticator]

It's good when a symptom turns out to be from a simple problem instead of the complex causes we often speculate may be involved.

[old guy]

It's good when a symptom turns out to be from a simple problem instead of the complex causes we often speculate may be involved.

It certainly is!

This has been an incredibly tough week at work. I stripped the car down last weekend, ordered parts and picked up a rental car to tide me over. The new turbo came in Wednesday and the timing belt kit and a few assorted pulleys came in Thursday. I only had a few hours each night to work on it. I left work today at 4:00 and went at it hard. Just finished putting it back together.

WOW What A Difference!! The engine runs so much smoother, no more rattle.....rattle..rattle,rattle......rattle. The cam adjuster is totally silent. The new turbo is so much better It's kinda scary. I was peaking at 22-23 psi and dropping to 15-16 psi. It now peaks at 26-27 and holds at 20 psi to around 5,500 and then drops to around 18 psi. I'v only driven it about 10 miles so maybe the software will adjust down a little from there.

My advice to anyone approaching 200k miles is to go ahead and replace the cam adjuster. At 195k mine was pretty worn and although it wasn't the source of my rattle, having a new one installed made a noticeable difference in overall engine noise. I had forgotten how nice a 1.8T can idle. I seem to have fallen in love with her again. I was seriously looking for a replacement but now I do believe I will keep her a few more years.

Next project is to respray the front bumper. Since I last sprayed it it has two winters of road rash from the gravel they put on the back roads in WV and it looks like it took a round or two of buckshot.

Cheers!

[Knives1010]

Soo much edumaction just happened here, I really appreciate the more advanced members of the forums taking the time to walk us more novice folks through your diagnostics and reasonings, it really helps me know what to look for and prepare for my long future of Audi ownership... In the fall I'm going back to school to get my ase certs and my Associates in Auto Mechanics, so maybe soon I'll be up here with you guys but until then thank you.


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