DIY Front Subframe alignment. Do I have the right idea?

[evo_ski]

Hey guys, just trying to spitball my idea here to see if this sounds like it will work, or if anyone has done it before in their garage on jackstands and has a more clever way to do it. I am thinking having a floor jack on either side of the subframe will allow the frame to slide with less resistance on the bolts and allow me to align all 3 alignment holes on each side before I tighten everything up.

My process idea:

1. Loosen snub mount bracket bolts and transmission mount bolts.
2. Loosen 4 subframe bolts and 4 motor mount bracket bolts with a floor jack on either side of the subframe to help support and keep the frame from hanging by the bolts.
3. Stick steel rods into alignment holes and pry them back and forth to allow the subframe to slide sideways.
4. Once all 3 holes are aligned tighten 4 subframe and 4 motor mount bracket bolts.
5. Tighten snub mount bolts and transmission mount bolts.
6. Rejoice.

[MikTip]

These come in handy...



Need to borrow them?

[old guy]

There is one flaw in your plan. I assume your end goal is to center your camber. Aligning the holes doesn't necessarily center your camber. Do you know your current camber measurements? That will tell you which way you will be shifting the sub-frame. I did a rough calculation of how far I needed to move the sub-frame and used a black fine tip marker to mark around the sub-frame bolts so I could determine how far to move the sub-frame. After moving the sub-frame you will have bolt everything up, take a quick spin around the block and recheck your camber. It took me several moves before I got mine perfectly centered.

[evo_ski]

That would definitely be cool, but I will try to see if I can find something at home depot or similar that will fit. Any chance you might be able to measure the diameter of those so I can poke around home depot to see what they have? If I can't find something that would work I would love to borrow those if I could.

Thanks! Also, is that process somewhat similar to how you did yours?

[evo_ski]

There is one flaw in your plan. I assume your end goal is to center your camber. Aligning the holes doesn't necessarily center your camber. Do you know your current camber measurements? That will tell you which way you will be shifting the sub-frame. I did a rough calculation of how far I needed to move the sub-frame and used a black fine tip marker to mark around the sub-frame bolts so I could determine how far to move the sub-frame. After moving the sub-frame you will have bolt everything up, take a quick spin around the block and recheck your camber. It took me several moves before I got mine perfectly centered.

I have the 034 adjustable upper control arms. I am going with a set of wider wheels and am trying to simply center the subframe so that I can hopefully not have a bunch of wheel poke on one side and none on the other side. I just want to get the subframe centered and then can dial in my camber with the adjustable uppers from there. Physically looking at the car you can tell one wheel is sunken in further than the other, so I want to make that even side to side before I mess with my camber.

Out of curiosity, how were you checking your camber? I would love it if I can get a ballpark idea on my camber before I take it in for a final alignment. I have the Firestone lifetime alignment. I know they don't do the best job, hence my not wanting them to mess with the adjustable uppers or subframe alignment and want to get it pretty dialed before I take it in so I don't have to make any adjustments after they set it up. I will likely use your suggestion of removing two flats of toe to get myself to pretty close to 0 degrees of toe to help with tire wear.

[walky_talky20]

Physically looking at the car...

You know, as opposed to Virtually looking at it - in which case you won't even see the car at all.

[evo_ski]

You know, as opposed to Virtually looking at it - in which case you won't even see the car at all.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!.

[old guy]

Sorry for the delayed response. Got called for dinner. I parked the car on a known level spot (used a 4' level to confirm) and then used a framing square and an Angle Calculator to check the camber. I measured the camber angle on both sides and then determined how far to move the sub-frame to get it centered.

[evo_ski]

Wow! Old Guy, you are without a doubt the man. Not sure why that idea never came to mind. That sounds like that will be absolutely perfect. Who knows, between that and your tape measure DIY toe adjustment settings thread I might not even have to take the car in.

As far as shifting the subframe does my logic seem sound? I can simply hang the subframe just from the bolts with no problems, right? I would think so since those are the only thing that actually holds it onto the car, but wanted to double check. Seems like with a little bit of muscle and help from two floor jacks it should slide right into place with some alignment dowels.

Thank you all for the ideas!

[old guy]

The way I did it was to pull the car up on ramps then marked and loosed all the sub-frame bolts. I then used a floor jack and a block of wood placed underneath the transmission to take some of the load off the sub-frame. I was able to shift the sub-frame with a combination of pry bars and a few taps with a wooden block and a big ass sledge hammer to "fine tune" the movements. Repeated the process several times until I got it where I wanted it.

If you have adjustable controls arms you might want to take a different approach. Your objective is to center your wheels and then adjust for camber. You can use the framing square to measure your camber but more importantly you want to calculate where the center-line of the wheel is in relationship to the body of the car. After you get that centered you can adjust for camber using the adjustable control arms.

[evo_ski]

Perfect. Thank you SO MUCH for all of your ideas everyone. I was thinking I was going to have to shell out some cash to have this done at the dealer or a specialty shop, but with all of these ideas I can definitely do this in my garage.

I am not really looking for it to be EXACT, but if I can get it 95% of the way there that will be awesome. I didn't have issues with odd tire wear as is, but I would prefer to get it corrected before putting brand new wheels and tires on.

[old guy]

You can definitely do it all yourself. It is unfortunate that it is so hard to find alignment shops that are capable of performing anything other than the factory OEM settings. Typically they can do a great job of setting everything to factory specs but seem to have a lot of difficulty understanding anything outside of those parameters. I would gladly pay any alignment shop twice the current rate to let me just do it myself. But that just isn't going to happen.

I know you have read several of my other posts concerning alignment specs and procedures. All I can tell you is that my current set up is the best I have found for tire wear. When I first purchased my car I could chew through a set of tires in 20-25k miles. Now that I set the front specs myself the tire wear is at least double. The set of Conti DWS's that I just replaced had 50K on them and if it wasn't in the middle of the winter I would have run them for at least another 5k miles.

Have fun!

[Charles.waite]

You can definitely do it all yourself. It is unfortunate that it is so hard to find alignment shops that are capable of performing anything other than the factory OEM settings. Typically they can do a great job of setting everything to factory specs but seem to have a lot of difficulty understanding anything outside of those parameters. I would gladly pay any alignment shop twice the current rate to let me just do it myself. But that just isn't going to happen.

I know you have read several of my other posts concerning alignment specs and procedures. All I can tell you is that my current set up is the best I have found for tire wear. When I first purchased my car I could chew through a set of tires in 20-25k miles. Now that I set the front specs myself the tire wear is at least double. The set of Conti DWS's that I just replaced had 50K on them and if it wasn't in the middle of the winter I would have run them for at least another 5k miles.

Have fun!

Mind posting a link to your thread Fletcher, for posterity?

I know I've read them also, but in case anyone stumbles across this thread. i did some quick searching but can't come up with it...

When I got my car aligned last year, it was WAAAAY off from factory specs. The shop I took it to did a stellar job and the car handled completely differently than before. It was awesome. Unfortunately got in an accident last year and I believe it either knocked my tie rods loose or damaged them and the steering is now quite loose and pulls side to side over ruts and bumps. I need to replaces all my lower control arms anyway so I'm going to do that and attempt to DIY the alignment with Evo_Ski and see how we get on. I know my rear settings are bang on, so I think I'll only need to mess with my front toe and possibly re-center the subframe (it probably shifted slightly from the impact).

I would take my car back to the same place, but $160 is a tough pill to swallow sometimes...

[evo_ski]

I sure have, yes. I followed your procedure for the DIY toe settings before I took it to a shop and was able to get my front toe within .01 degrees of spec. I have no idea why it didn't come to me to use a construction square for the camber settings. I had seen a couple places that had clip on or magnetic angle finders that could possibly do it, but I like your way much better. I was able to get MUCH better tire wear just from installing the 034 uppers and getting my camber closer to spec, but didn't adjust my toe past the factory recommended settings. I will definitely follow your lead on your recommended toe settings this time and I should be golden!

[old guy]

Mind posting a link to your thread Fletcher, for posterity?

I know I've read them also, but in case anyone stumbles across this thread. i did some quick searching but can't come up with it...

I have posted numerous threads. A lot of them with additional links so I don't exactly have a particular one to point you toward. I just ran a search on "bump steer" with user name "old guy" and got 14 hits. Grab a beer and a bag of chips and do a little reading. I'm pretty sure that will give you a proper edgumacation on DIY alignments

Cheers!

Edit: CP, if you start here and read the links in the link I think you will find the all the info. Clicky click

[evo_ski]

I will make sure to take pics of my process and create a mini diy of sorts. That way anyone who stumbles on this has a guide to follow.

[Charles.waite]

I have posted numerous threads. A lot of them with additional links so I don't exactly have a particular one to point you toward. I just ran a search on "bump steer" with user name "old guy" and got 14 hits. Grab a beer and a bag of chips and do a little reading. I'm pretty sure that will give you a proper edgumacation on DIY alignments

Cheers!

Edit: CP, if you start here and read the links in the link I think you will find the all the info. Clicky click

I'll check them out. I was thinking the one in particular where you talked about your toe specs and taking temp readings and whatnot.

Edit: Found it!

[old guy]

I'll check them out. I was thinking the one in particular where you talked about your toe specs and taking temp readings and whatnot.

Edit: Found it!

Glad you posted that, CP. I never followed up on what I have found since then. As noted in that thread I was running 40 psi (cold) tire pressures. Since then I have played around a bit with pressures and what I have concluded is that higher tire pressures combined with increased camber will cause higher temperatures and increased wear on the inner edge of the front tires. Reading what I just wrote causes me to think "Duh... what did you expect?"

If you think about it, higher tire pressures will give less sidewall flex and consequently more of the load will be put on the inner edge of the tire. It will give you a bit crisper handling but you will pay the price in inner edge tire wear. After lowering the pressures to 34 psi (cold) the temperatures equalized nicely across the tire and the wear evened out. The best combination is close to zero toe, moderate tire pressures and reduced bump steer.

[evo_ski]

So for those that need to do this, it is INCREDIBLY EASY. I should have done this years ago to even out tire wear. I was slightly incorrect in my initial process at the start of the thread, it is even easier than expected. All you need to loosen are the 4 subframe bolts with a floor jack in the center of the front crossbar of the subframe. Lower those bolts about an 1/8" or so just so you know it is loose. Then loosen the 3 snub mount bolts and release pressure on the floor jack holding the subframe ever so slightly. Use a screwdriver handle, pry bar, etc. to wiggle the subframe and mount brackets enough to make them line up. I used a pickle fork from harbor freight on each side as they were about the perfect size. I had two of them, so I propped one up with a block of wood through all 3 alignment rings on each side, then started to crank down the subrame bolts. Once all the bolts are tight you can remove your locating tools and you are done.

[Charles.waite]

How many pickles were harmed in the aligning of your subframe??


Posted from my iPhone. Any misspellings are Siri's fault.

[old guy]

Nice job! Did you by chance measure your before and after camber? Although with the adjustable control arms it probably wouldn't matter since you can fine tune with the control arms.

[walky_talky20]

I would gladly pay any alignment shop twice the current rate to let me just do it myself. But that just isn't going to happen.

If you're ever in the area, I have the most awesome of hookups here in my little town. Local shop owner has a Laser alignment rack and knows what he is doing. He even drives a B5 A4. Anyway, he did full custom specs for me, touching EVERY adjustment on the car - including sliding the subframe to get it "perfect". Color printout at the end. Total charge? 40 bucks.

Which I told him was ridiculous and he should charge me $100+. But he wouldn't take a dollar more than 40. He considers the alignment "easy" if he doesn't have to get out the blow-torch to make the bolts move. lol

[Rabbit]

How many pickles were harmed in the aligning of your subframe??

Just yours.

[evo_ski]

How many pickles were harmed in the aligning of your subframe??


Posted from my iPhone. Any misspellings are Siri's fault.

Tickled, maybe. Harmed, no.

Old Guy, I didn't measure the before and after camber for a couple reasons. My garage is sloped kinda awkwardly, to where the car will only sit on 3 jackstands and the last one is about 1/4" off of the car when I put it up on all 4. Secondly, I was in a rush to try to get the wheels on and test the fit to see if I needed to adjust it further. However, since I do have adjustable uppers I can simply adjust both sides to the same amount of threads showing on the upper arms and then check my work. I am going to be doing some fine tuning this weekend and hopefully will have time to measure the camber.

Does anyone know if there are similar alignment rings or markings for the rear subframe? Mine seems to be off my maybe 2-3mm one direction. I have camber maxed out in the rear to fit my new wheels without rubbing and one pokes a little more than the other. I am going to be putting a smaller spacer on so that I can put the camber at a more reasonable level.

[SJorge3442]

Hmmm. I may try this later tonight. I need to order my Konis today too.

[evo_ski]

It is suuuuuuuper easy.

#i'monaphone

[SJorge3442]

It is suuuuuuuper easy.

#i'monaphone

seems like it. Support front of subframe. Loosen bolts, jam ball joint seperator into hole. Wiggle around. Bolt back together? Is the engine going to fall on me? Im scared

[evo_ski]

There is no chance of that happening. You could even unscrew the bolts an inch if you wanted with no jack underneath and it wouldn't be an issue. Remember, these 4 bolts are what hold the entire subframe to the car in the first place. The only reason I used a jack on the front of the subframe was so that there wasn't as much pressure on the bolts making it easier to slide the subframe around. I am sure you could do it without a jack on the subframe, but the friction of the bolts on the mounts would make it more difficult to move.

Once the car is up on jack stands this will literally take you 10 minutes from start to finish at the absolute most. Once the four bolts are loosened 1/4" or so it takes about 5 seconds to wiggle each side with your pry tools and then you just torque everything back to spec.

[SJorge3442]

There is no chance of that happening. You could even unscrew the bolts an inch if you wanted with no jack underneath and it wouldn't be an issue. Remember, these 4 bolts are what hold the entire subframe to the car in the first place. The only reason I used a jack on the front of the subframe was so that there wasn't as much pressure on the bolts making it easier to slide the subframe around. I am sure you could do it without a jack on the subframe, but the friction of the bolts on the mounts would make it more difficult to move.

Once the car is up on jack stands this will literally take you 10 minutes from start to finish at the absolute most. One the four bolts are loosened 1/4" or so it takes about 5 seconds to wiggle each side with your pry tools and then you just torque everything back to spec.

good looks. I will be tackling this tonight or tomorrow. My passenger side has a crazy amout of negative camber!!! Im not even stanced! Did you notice a big improvement in ride quality?

[evo_ski]

I didn't, but it could be because I have adjustable control arms so I was compensating for the shift with those. You will definitely experience more even tire wear though.

[old guy]

The rear sub-frame can screw up your alignment. The rear is adjustable for toe and camber so centering it left/right isn't required to get the camber in spec. What you have to be aware of is a rotation of the sub-frame. In other words, make sure that the small amount of movement is always set in the same direction. If the sub-frame isn't aligned completely parallel with the car body you may run out of toe adjustment before you can get the toe into spec.

[evo_ski]

I was able to shift my rear subframe about 5mm side to side to make my rear wheels both sit flush with the fenders. I had the rear camber set exactly the same on both sides and there was about 2mm on one side between the tire and fender, and roughly 7 or 8 on the other side. After shifting it it was even. The rear doesn't have any alignment dowels or guides, which make it difficult so it was a bit of guess and check work.

[evo_ski]

That is correct, however, when I asked the dealer they said they re-use them. So if you were to take your car to the dealer they will re-use your bolts if they align your subframe. Sure, you can replace them, but is it 100% necessary? I don't think so.

The dealer near me re-uses brake carrier bolts, axle bolts, etc. etc.

[linust]

Although you can probably reuse these bolts a few times, they are stretch bolts (torque to yield).
Repeated tightening to spec will result in the bolt shaft getting thinner (as the bolt stretches) and eventual failure.
I don't believe there is a safe tightening spec for reuse of TTY bolts, so you also risk not having the bolt tight enough.
Play it safe and replace after a couple uses.

[caluma4x4]

So for those that need to do this, it is INCREDIBLY EASY. I should have done this years ago to even out tire wear. I was slightly incorrect in my initial process at the start of the thread, it is even easier than expected. All you need to loosen are the 4 subframe bolts with a floor jack in the center of the front crossbar of the subframe. Lower those bolts about an 1/8" or so just so you know it is loose. Then loosen the 3 snub mount bolts and release pressure on the floor jack holding the subframe ever so slightly. Use a screwdriver handle, pry bar, etc. to wiggle the subframe and mount brackets enough to make them line up. I used a pickle fork from harbor freight on each side as they were about the perfect size. I had two of them, so I propped one up with a block of wood through all 3 alignment rings on each side, then started to crank down the subrame bolts. Once all the bolts are tight you can remove your locating tools and you are done.

I had to drop my front subframe when I was sorting out the low oil pressure (yeah 1.8t) when bolting the subframe back in place I used the factory wheel brace, in fact I had two, one for each side, they were a very tight fit indeed, perfect for the job.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-V...UAAOSw43haMn6o

[evo_ski]

Oh nice! That's a good tip. Glad this helped out a little for you.

[caluma4x4]

Oh nice! That's a good tip. Glad this helped out a little for you.

Well not really, I hadn’t seen the post at the time but I just added what I did to help others out.
Necessity is the mother of invention after all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[EuroxS4]

I use a long 13mm impact socket at work.Fits like a glove.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[DPDISXR4Ti]

So for those that need to do this, it is INCREDIBLY EASY. I should have done this years ago to even out tire wear. I was slightly incorrect in my initial process at the start of the thread, it is even easier than expected. All you need to loosen are the 4 subframe bolts with a floor jack in the center of the front crossbar of the subframe. Lower those bolts about an 1/8" or so just so you know it is loose. Then loosen the 3 snub mount bolts and release pressure on the floor jack holding the subframe ever so slightly. Use a screwdriver handle, pry bar, etc. to wiggle the subframe and mount brackets enough to make them line up. I used a pickle fork from harbor freight on each side as they were about the perfect size. I had two of them, so I propped one up with a block of wood through all 3 alignment rings on each side, then started to crank down the subrame bolts. Once all the bolts are tight you can remove your locating tools and you are done.

Just reading this thread for the first time and want to make sure I fully understand it. Those three alignment holes that the pickle fork is through are otherwise un-used? i.e. There's nothing to remove.

On your follow-up write-up above, you left off loosening the motor mounts. Is that correct? Is there no need to loosen those?

I'm thinking that if you've developed a slight pull and are thinking about taking the car in for an alignment, this would be a good first step regardless, yes? It might "fix" the alignment all by itself, but if it doesn't, it's best to start off with the sub-frame perfectly aligned to the body.

And good call on using factory lug wrenches as a centering tools. I knew there was a reason I grabbed an extra one of those at the junkyard! :)

[evo_ski]

Right, there is nothing in those holes, they are only for alignment purposes. Also no need to loosen any motor mounts.