2013 Steering Issues VAG COM Fix?

[thedollardoctor]

As posted in the "Steering Issues Thread" and "VAG COM Security Codes" threads, I wanted to start a new thread on the Steering issues in an attempt to track the success of various VAG COM Adjustments.

I finally got the chance to "deselect" the box indicated by Tomasz in my "VAG COM Security Codes" thread. The box is under 44-electric steering assist module > coding > long coding > byte 0 > bit 4 (uncheck box for "Driver Steering Recommendation"). I did this last week and have since put well over 100 miles of highway driving on the car with NO steering issues AT ALL! Not even the faintest "hint" of crappy slippy steering. Overall, in EVERY MODE the steering is MUCH MUCH more reliable feeling and consistent! I'm starting to believe that this may in fact be a solid band-aid fix for "the slip" issue many of us have ben experiencing. Before I made this adjustment my steering had been HORRIBLE lately! In fact the worst it had ever been! And since this adjustment my steering has been utterly flawless in every way!

I HIGHLY recommend any of you who have VAG COM make this adjustment and put some miles on your car, then report back. I sincerely hope the rest of you have as good an experience as I have with this adjustment! Now I won't be 100% on board with this being the "end all fix" until I have put many many more miles on my car with it, but so far, I am VERY HAPPY with how the steering is behaving on my car with it!

This "fix" is for "the slip" issue where there is a noticable "slip" across 12 O'Clock in the steering wheel (mostly occurs at highway speeds, others have described this issue as a notch or point of resistance or detent at 12 O'Clock). To my knowledge this DOES NOT fix the "MMI wheel nothciness at all steering angles and speeds" issue (that was fixed for me with the new steering rack).

Please report back any findings any of you have in this thread while making this adjustment.

CREDIT TO TOMASZ FOR BEING THE FIRST PERSON TO GIVE THIS A TRY! I AM JUST REPORTING MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCES WITH THIS.

Edit: (to add wikipedia definition of Driver Steering Recommendation found by Weminuche)

An explanation of the "Driver Steering Recommendation" from Wikipedia:

Driver Steering Recommendation (DSR) is a feature of the Electronic Stabilisation Program (ESP) system on several recent Volkswagen Group car models, including the SEAT León Mk2 (Typ 1P), Volkswagen Golf Plus, and Volkswagen Scirocco. The system is supplied by Continental Automotive Systems.
Sensors detect when the car is starting to skid and the steering's electronic control unit (ECU) provides a prompt to the driver to correct the problem by making the steering wheel move slightly. Since most drivers find the idea of a car steering itself troubling, VW Group stresses that the robotic nudge is merely a suggestion, which the driver is free to override.

Sounds like it could be the cause of the problem...

[lapisia]

What does the driver steering recommendation suppose to do when activated?

[thedollardoctor]

What does the driver steering recommendation suppose to do when activated?

I have no idea! I personally thought the best potential VAG COM fix would be to "reset learned behaviors" because this particular steering issue seems to happen so randomly it seemed like a flaw in the "learning or adaptive steering" systems, but Tomasz gave this a shot first and said he felt it helped, so I gave it a shot and I have to say my sterring has been flawless since!

By the name of it, it seems as though it "could be" something to do with the car attempting to "boost" or "help" with steering assistance, which would make sense as this seems to be the problem with the "slip" issue, where it feels like the car overboosts unnecessarily causing the wheel to let go and grab again.

[1MORLAP]

I can also confirm that this does not fix the MMI wheel notchiness at all steering angles and speeds issue. But it does seem to eliminate the slip and the random hunting issues.

@doc, thank you for creating a new thread for this and the credit.

Tomasz

[drob23]

To provide a control, I'll run VAGCOM tonight and check what my setting is. For the record I have a 2013 and have *not* experienced any unnatural steering.

[thedollardoctor]

I can also confirm that this does not fix the MMI wheel notchiness at all steering angles and speeds issue. But it does seem to eliminate the slip and the random hunting issues.

@doc, thank you for creating a new thread for this and the credit.

Tomasz

My pleasure man! Thank YOU for being brave enough to be the first to give it a go! You may very well have saved a TON of people on here from months of frustration awaiting a software fix from Audi on "the slip" issue! You certainly helped me!

I just wish you were able to get your rack replaced so you could finally experience the good, solid quality steering I am FINALLY experiencing in my car right now!

To provide a control, I'll run VAGCOM tonight and check what my setting is. For the record I have a 2013 and have *not* experienced any unnatural steering.

Right on man, good idea!

[achilleas101]

this is going to be interesting. If this does indeed provide a fix for people experiencing the slip issue, it makes you wonder - what steering behaviors of the people having problems cause the system to "learn" and then "assist" in such a way as to create this problem, where others are not. In other words, is there some kind of driving style that causes the system to think it needs to do X (and then proceeds to do X so poorly as to create problems), while others it does not determine it needs to do X, and thus those folks are not having problems? hmmmmm

[coolwater]

Sounds like this is great news.
I have wierd steering slippage also.
It's like I could be driving, take my eye off the road for a split second and the car goes off tangent...

More feedback from others pls...

-cW

[boss2k]

Dont you think doing these kind of setting changes are harmful to the car , i mean Audi has set it up for a purpose. If there is indeed a further issue and Audi is able to identify the changes what could be warranty implications ? Is it safe to do this change too ?

[Heresy]

Nice work fellas.

[1MORLAP]

Dont you think doing these kind of setting changes are harmful to the car , i mean Audi has set it up for a purpose. If there is indeed a further issue and Audi is able to identify the changes what could be warranty implications ? Is it safe to do this change too ?

I don't. Really. There are things one could change and really mess things up. This one I feel good about.

[drob23]

Just checked my car, and Bit 4 IS checked. Interesting, seems that this feature being active does not imply the "slip" steering failure, at least *so far* during my first 5k/4 mnths of ownership.

[drob23]

Dont you think doing these kind of setting changes are harmful to the car , i mean Audi has set it up for a purpose. If there is indeed a further issue and Audi is able to identify the changes what could be warranty implications ? Is it safe to do this change too ?

Changes to VAGCOM should IMO not create any warranty issues. Many of the subsystems in the car are not unique to either this car nor region. The car ECU's are designed to have this versatility so the same car can be sold in different corners of the world. This contrasts to "flashing firmware", which changes factory proprietary code. Many auto parts stores/mechanics use tools similar to VAGCOM. By making changes in VAGCOM, you're doing something similar to tweaking the settings of a television.

[achilleas101]

and lets remember- in a mechanical setup, whether thats throttle or steering, there is no learned behavior that then alters how the mechanics of the part operate. it just operates. but for better fuel efficiency manufacturers have developed drive by wire so that they can try to better control how fuel is sent when you press the throttle based on your behavior. resetting those or never allowing the car to learn those doesn't impact the safety or operational capability of the car.

similarly, steering shouldn't be any different. i think this is an example of "over engineering", trying to make a better wheel type of thing. they hope they can help the least common denominator, ,perhaps try to correct some bad driver behavior based on what the system picks up, and in the end they messed something up. at worst, i think disabling a learning feature means your steering will be as it was on day 1 of when you bought your car.

[Weminuche]

An explanation of the "Driver Steering Recommendation" from Wikipedia:

Driver Steering Recommendation (DSR) is a feature of the Electronic Stabilisation Program (ESP) system on several recent Volkswagen Group car models, including the SEAT León Mk2 (Typ 1P), Volkswagen Golf Plus, and Volkswagen Scirocco. The system is supplied by Continental Automotive Systems.
Sensors detect when the car is starting to skid and the steering's electronic control unit (ECU) provides a prompt to the driver to correct the problem by making the steering wheel move slightly. Since most drivers find the idea of a car steering itself troubling, VW Group stresses that the robotic nudge is merely a suggestion, which the driver is free to override.

Sounds like it could be the cause of the problem...

[lapisia]

An explanation of the "Driver Steering Recommendation" from Wikipedia:

Driver Steering Recommendation (DSR) is a feature of the Electronic Stabilisation Program (ESP) system on several recent Volkswagen Group car models, including the SEAT León Mk2 (Typ 1P), Volkswagen Golf Plus, and Volkswagen Scirocco. The system is supplied by Continental Automotive Systems.
Sensors detect when the car is starting to skid and the steering's electronic control unit (ECU) provides a prompt to the driver to correct the problem by making the steering wheel move slightly. Since most drivers find the idea of a car steering itself troubling, VW Group stresses that the robotic nudge is merely a suggestion, which the driver is free to override.

Sounds like it could be the cause of the problem...

That's a terrible feature. Why would anyone who needs that kind of assist be driving a S4 in the first place anyway? Achilieas may be right, this is seriously a case of overengineering.

[thedollardoctor]

Dont you think doing these kind of setting changes are harmful to the car , i mean Audi has set it up for a purpose. If there is indeed a further issue and Audi is able to identify the changes what could be warranty implications ? Is it safe to do this change too ?

I spoke directly to the head tech at my dealership about doing this (I was concerned about the same things you mentioned) and he assured me that the particular settings I was considering adjusting could not do any harm to the car, nor could they effect warranty issues.

Basically, SOME settings in VAG COM "can" create problems if messed with, but many of them are "comfort and convenience" settings. Example being the fact that the US S4 does not come with the option checked to put windows and sunroof open with the key fob, however, in VAG COM it is possible to check this feature. Same as oil temp and lap timer functions.

Point being, not all VAG COM adjustments are harmful or necessary.

[afig367]

Changes to VAGCOM should IMO not create any warranty issues. Many of the subsystems in the car are not unique to either this car nor region. The car ECU's are designed to have this versatility so the same car can be sold in different corners of the world. This contrasts to "flashing firmware", which changes factory proprietary code. Many auto parts stores/mechanics use tools similar to VAGCOM. By making changes in VAGCOM, you're doing something similar to tweaking the settings of a television.

+1. The VAGCOM allows you to adjust personal settings within the defined limitations/specs of the car. For example, you can uncheck this box (in the same way that you would uncheck the "Send Read Receipt" setting on an email) as a user setting. It will not allow you to do things like raise the redline which, as drob23 points out, is a change to the ECU's underlying code base.

I could make the argument that because the box is able to be unchecked in the first place.... that it's totally legit to do.

[coolwater]

Nice wiki find!
I have to take a look at this setting.
Steering wheel does feel as if its trying to nudge you a certain way at times.
And it's annoying that I have to compensate for that constantly.

-cW

[thedollardoctor]

An explanation of the "Driver Steering Recommendation" from Wikipedia:

Driver Steering Recommendation (DSR) is a feature of the Electronic Stabilisation Program (ESP) system on several recent Volkswagen Group car models, including the SEAT León Mk2 (Typ 1P), Volkswagen Golf Plus, and Volkswagen Scirocco. The system is supplied by Continental Automotive Systems.
Sensors detect when the car is starting to skid and the steering's electronic control unit (ECU) provides a prompt to the driver to correct the problem by making the steering wheel move slightly. Since most drivers find the idea of a car steering itself troubling, VW Group stresses that the robotic nudge is merely a suggestion, which the driver is free to override.

Sounds like it could be the cause of the problem...

Wow!! Great find man! I can TOTALLY see how this setting could cause the exact issue we are describing as "the slip" because it really does feel like the car is trying to react to what it thinks is a road condition. (Which is why it feels like tram lining to a degree). I've also noticed its worse in the wind, which would also make sense.

[drob23]

Wow!! Great find man! I can TOTALLY see how this setting could cause the exact issue we are describing as "the slip" because it really does feel like the car is trying to react to what it thinks is a road condition. (Which is why it feels like tram lining to a degree). I've also noticed its worse in the wind, which would also make sense.

I posed this somewhere else, but here's a similar system marketed by Ford

http://media.ford.com/images/10031/EPAS.pdf

It mentions the wind situation along with crowned roads. On the bright side we can start blaming Conti for the sh*t implementation. This is getting *way* ahead, with most recalls that they narrow down to a specific range of build dates and/or factory. Is there a way to extract this info from the VIN?

Edit - quick marketing blurb in this video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsL5NgQdkqg

Double Edit - Article about NHTSA response to EPS failures with other OEM's http://www.safetyresearch.net/2012/1...me-into-focus/

[visualguy]

Just checked my car, and Bit 4 IS checked. Interesting, seems that this feature being active does not imply the "slip" steering failure, at least *so far* during my first 5k/4 mnths of ownership.

Thanks for checking on your car. It is weird that only some cars exhibit the problems. It's also weird that sometimes the problems show up right away, and sometimes it takes thousands of miles. Not particularly consistent with a software root cause.

The notch is pretty much verified to be a hardware problem. The slip is claimed to be a software problem, although it seems to be more consistent with a sensor going bad at some point (or being bad to begin with), thus confusing the software and making the "Driver Steering Recommendation" do the wrong thing. We won't know for sure until the fix is released.

By the way, my S5 steering is still ok - no notch or slip, thankfully.

[SixShifter]

I spoke directly to the head tech at my dealership about doing this (I was concerned about the same things you mentioned) and he assured me that the particular settings I was considering adjusting could not do any harm to the car, nor could they effect warranty issues.

Not to discount what is being passed here, but I would be more impressed if somebody, somehow, could/would bring this to the attention of "anybody" of importance at AoA (Regional tech, home office, etc.) and get their read on this. Might save countless hours/weeks/months/(years) of research by Audi, who is currently claiming their awareness of the issue(s) and their research into a fix for same, and could expedite a fix which could be performed at any time by any competent dealer without this continued wait.

[drob23]

Not to discount what is being passed here, but I would be more impressed if somebody, somehow, could/would bring this to the attention of "anybody" of importance at AoA (Regional tech, home office, etc.) and get their read on this. Might save countless hours/weeks/months/(years) of research by Audi, who is currently claiming their awareness of the issue(s) and their research into a fix for same, and could expedite a fix which could be performed at any time by any competent dealer without this continued wait.

I'm sure that Audi knows what the problem is, and doubt that someone checking a box in VAGCOM somehow goes over there head. There are probably 5-10 incredibly capable engineers who worked on/implemented this system on the car. They paid a lot of money to Continental for this feature, so Audi's fix will try to keep this working, and if nothing else can be done, they'll scrap it (but this would result in probably 4 guys losing their jobs).

Unfortunately, exposing all failure modes from something as complex as a production car is really difficult, this is mostly due to variance in the quality of the manufacturing process, where cars/parts are made all over the world.

My educated guess - This feature from Conti was not well designed to handle sensor errors (whether they be drift, bias, dead-zone etc) and there was a bad batch of sensors (seem to go bad quickly).

[thedollardoctor]

Update: Another problem free highway drive to work!

Also, called my service manager at my dealership today to report this VAG COM adjustment and how much it has helped my steering. He took down all the info on how to make the adjustment, told me he'd pass that on to the head tech who I have been working with on these issues and have him also forward this info on to Audi Tech as well. He was very excited to hear that this has helped as they have had multiple cars come in (across model lines of 13' Audis) with this issue!

[Bronx Cheer]

Very very interesting. I have had my car for two days now, and this seems like a very plausible explanation for the steering wierdness. It feels like for about 3 seconds the car decides to drive itself (suddenly goes off from straight on its own with absolutely no tactile feedback in the steering wheel as you would get with tramlining). You see it going wonky and do an overcorrect, and in the end you end up swerving all over like you are one of those people trying to text and drive.

I'll have to ask my dealer about this or find somebody in the DC area with a cable to hook me up if symptoms persist.

Good job Dr., keep the reports coming.

[thedollardoctor]

Very very interesting. I have had my car for two days now, and this seems like a very plausible explanation for the steering wierdness. It feels like for about 3 seconds the car decides to drive itself (suddenly goes off from straight on its own with absolutely no tactile feedback in the steering wheel as you would get with tramlining). You see it going wonky and do an overcorrect, and in the end you end up swerving all over like you are one of those people trying to text and drive.

I'll have to ask my dealer about this or find somebody in the DC area with a cable to hook me up if symptoms persist.

Good job Dr., keep the reports coming.

Yep, you have described the exact issue we are discussing in this thread! I'll be interested to hear if this adjustment helps you as much as it has helped me and Tomasz. I believe it will!

[Bronx Cheer]

I think I am quite capable of handling a traction slippage situation without a "steering suggestion" from the car, so I would be pretty willing to disable this feature if it got rid of the occasional Carrie moments.

[Canvasoso]

Just read this. Great work $Doc. I'll do t on mine and report back. I don't have a too pronounced "slip" condition, but it is noticeable sometimes.

[thedollardoctor]

LOL! Agreed 100%!

It's amazing, but so far, with this feature turned off, I have been completely capable of driving my own car in a straight line at all speeds. Shocking!

[Bronx Cheer]

Scares the crap out of you when it occurs. I am especially used to having excellent feedback in my steering wheel (just swapped out of an e90 M3), and the feeling of loss of control is WAY unnerving.

I drove the car locally and on the highway before purchase with no symptoms. On the long 40 mile drive home after completing the purchase I about crapped myself. IF this fix works, I think I'll love this car. If it doesn't, I'll be cursing myself for straying away from BMWs (have been driving BMWs exclusively for over 10 years).

[thedollardoctor]

Scares the crap out of you when it occurs. I am especially used to having excellent feedback in my steering wheel (just swapped out of an e90 M3), and the feeling of loss of control is WAY unnerving.

I drove the car locally and on the highway before purchase with no symptoms. On the long 40 mile drive home after completing the purchase I about crapped myself. IF this fix works, I think I'll love this car. If it doesn't, I'll be cursing myself for straying away from BMWs (have been driving BMWs exclusively for over 10 years).

I came from a long line of Infinitis with excellent steerig feedback and confidence. Did everything i could think to do to make the steering in my S4 more like that (sways, end links, AK) and still had issues. This adjustment has made the steering MUCH more reliable and confident. I'm still not IN LOVE with the electric steering overall, but at least I feel like I'm in control of my car now.

[drob23]

I came from a long line of Infinitis with excellent steerig feedback and confidence. Did everything i could think to do to make the steering in my S4 more like that (sways, end links, AK) and still had issues. This adjustment has made the steering MUCH more reliable and confident. I'm still not IN LOVE with the electric steering overall, but at least I feel like I'm in control of my car now.

Haha, as irony would have it, looks like Nissan is gonna start putting drive by wire into the new Q50 Infinity. Think about how the "slip" would feel if there isn't even an engaged mechanical linkage:

http://www.gizmag.com/infiniti-q50/25790/

[BzzzBom]

I am at Eurocode getting their Stage One intake installed and had them make the Vag Com adjustment. The steering was horrible during the long freeway drive to Eurocode. I'll report back later regarding the new intake and the steering.

[thedollardoctor]

I am at Eurocode getting their Stage One intake installed and had them make the Vag Com adjustment. The steering was horrible during the long freeway drive to Eurocode. I'll report back later regarding the new intake and the steering.

Great! Glad to hear that you were able to get this adjustment made! I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this Bzzz

[BzzzBom]

Drove home and slip was gone! The steering has never been this good.

[brocken]

Thanks for posting the tip. I've noticed the same problem - mostly on the freeway.
Now I just need to find someone local with a VAG-COM.

[thedollardoctor]

Drove home and slip was gone! The steering has never been this good.

HELL YES!! Happy to hear that Bzzz!! I know you've put as much or more effort into these steering issues as I have so I couldn't be happier that this has had as positive an effect on your steering as mine!

Pretty great to drive the car without constant steering anxiety isn't it?

[boss2k]

Will the dealer make this VAG setting change

[thedollardoctor]

Will the dealer make this VAG setting change

There is some debate about whether they will or not due to their compliance requirements etx. I'd say it's probably dependent on your actual dealer. I know mine would do this for me, but my dealer is very mod friendly and easy to work with.