How Advanced is the B8 S4 ECU?

[a4rings]

I was posting in another thread about piggybacks vs Flash Tunes and it got me really thinking. I may be interested in picking up a used s4 in the next year or two and was wondering if the ecu is advanced as the 335i's? any info would really be appreciated

Here is my post from the other thread

Originally Posted by S4twister
Very well said [edit - in general], NWS4Guy, agreed.

Based on my personal experience, piggybacks don't do a good job in terms of managing ECU correctly, plus the whole engine management is limited to the extent those things can "trick" ECU within stock program limits. Based on my prior experience, some piggybacks can manage boost parameters, advance ignition timing, but dump enormous amount of fuel to compensate possible detonation by lowering a/f ratio to be on a relatively "safe" side in terms of engine wear.. which is the only avalable solution in this case, but decremental to engine parts anyway (exhaust valves, spark plugs, you name it).
Rewriting ECU maps is completely different story, which is having full control over engine operation based on true readings of sensors.

So, reflash it is!.. or fully programmable ECU which I have in my other car :)


My Response:
Piggybacks have come A LONG WAY. Personally i would also go with the APR tune over MTM or ABT on this particular platform but i would not discredit piggybacks as much as you guys are. On the 335i the piggies (Jb4 and Procede) can control anything they want through the CANBUS system and are every bit as good as the flash tunes (GIAC etc.) The Piggies have many more features such as double clicking the hazard button on my 335i turns my gas gauge into a boost gauge (every quarter tank = 5psi), double click it again and the oil temp gauge becomes an A/F gauge. You can even connect the usb from the piggy to your laptop and put custom parameters for each Map (1,2,3,valet,Non-aspirated). They even have auto-tuning that adjusts boost/timing etc depending on the quality of gas/temp outside/elevation the car is at. put some race gas in there and watch the boost jump from 13psi to 15-17 within a few runs, its actually pretty amazing stuff. Vishnu tunings procede v5 even has a Map called Non-Aspirated which runs the car with the wastegates open to achieve about 3-5mpg increase (but its slow as shit). All you have to do is push the cruise control stalk up or down to switch Maps.
Some other features are, audible and visual(flashing turn signals) shift alert at whatever RPM you choose, then thers the progressive nitrous and Methanol control etc etc.

So, my point is that if the b8 s4 ECU is remotely as advanced as the one in the 335i then it is possible for piggybacks to do amazing things for you guys.

Heres and example of the boost gauge http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ6RmfRP_z4

Non-Aspirated Mode http://www.youtube.com/user/shivatvi.../8/TswNp3VRBl0

Map 2( the difference is crazy) http://www.youtube.com/user/shivatvi.../7/ekEJEmddHUw

More featureshttp://www.youtube.com/user/shivatvishnu#g/u

[jeffc31337]

The trick is the canbus integration. This is the first generation of piggies that has can bus integration and thus direct access to all the sensors the ECU has. This allows it to be a bit more pro-active in it's tuning, however, at it's core it is still conditioning signals sent to the ECU so there is some overhread/lag to this even be it in the millisecond scale. The flip side is that being a fully external CPU it can add those additional features you mentioned that can't easily be programmed into the stock ECU via flash. This doesn't have anything to do with how "advanced" the ecu is, rather that the new piggies are can-integrated and thus can control all the can related features of the car.

At this point I sitll prefer an ECU flash, however, for those that want the extra features the can integrated piggies are good option.

[helix139]

I was posting in another thread about piggybacks vs Flash Tunes and it got me really thinking. I may be interested in picking up a used s4 in the next year or two and was wondering if the ecu is advanced as the 335i's? any info would really be appreciated

Here is my post from the other thread

Originally Posted by S4twister
Very well said [edit - in general], NWS4Guy, agreed.

Based on my personal experience, piggybacks don't do a good job in terms of managing ECU correctly, plus the whole engine management is limited to the extent those things can "trick" ECU within stock program limits. Based on my prior experience, some piggybacks can manage boost parameters, advance ignition timing, but dump enormous amount of fuel to compensate possible detonation by lowering a/f ratio to be on a relatively "safe" side in terms of engine wear.. which is the only avalable solution in this case, but decremental to engine parts anyway (exhaust valves, spark plugs, you name it).
Rewriting ECU maps is completely different story, which is having full control over engine operation based on true readings of sensors.

So, reflash it is!.. or fully programmable ECU which I have in my other car :)


My Response:
Piggybacks have come A LONG WAY. Personally i would also go with the APR tune over MTM or ABT on this particular platform but i would not discredit piggybacks as much as you guys are. On the 335i the piggies (Jb4 and Procede) can control anything they want through the CANBUS system and are every bit as good as the flash tunes (GIAC etc.) The Piggies have many more features such as double clicking the hazard button on my 335i turns my gas gauge into a boost gauge (every quarter tank = 5psi), double click it again and the oil temp gauge becomes an A/F gauge. You can even connect the usb from the piggy to your laptop and put custom parameters for each Map (1,2,3,valet,Non-aspirated). They even have auto-tuning that adjusts boost/timing etc depending on the quality of gas/temp outside/elevation the car is at. put some race gas in there and watch the boost jump from 13psi to 15-17 within a few runs, its actually pretty amazing stuff. Vishnu tunings procede v5 even has a Map called Non-Aspirated which runs the car with the wastegates open to achieve about 3-5mpg increase (but its slow as shit). All you have to do is push the cruise control stalk up or down to switch Maps.
Some other features are, audible and visual(flashing turn signals) shift alert at whatever RPM you choose, then thers the progressive nitrous and Methanol control etc etc.

So, my point is that if the b8 s4 ECU is remotely as advanced as the one in the 335i then it is possible for piggybacks to do amazing things for you guys.

Heres and example of the boost gauge http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ6RmfRP_z4

Non-Aspirated Mode http://www.youtube.com/user/shivatvi.../8/TswNp3VRBl0

Map 2( the difference is crazy) http://www.youtube.com/user/shivatvi.../7/ekEJEmddHUw

More featureshttp://www.youtube.com/user/shivatvishnu#g/u

The ECU on the B8 S4 is at least as advanced as the one on the 335i, but that isn't the issue. It's the 1024-bit encrypted protections Audi built in, the same thing that won't allow OBD Flashing. Those protections are equally advanced. Quite simply, there are things that no piggyback will be able to modify due to the protections Audi has put in place. A piggyback is only able to alter the signals going between the ECU and the CANBUS. A reflash, on the other hand, is able to redesign how any variable is handled.

Think of it this way. if the ECU is the equation ax+by+cz where a, b, and c are constant parameters and x, y, and z are your input signals. on a BMW, you can change x, y, and z with a piggyback. On the S4, you can change X, but Y and Z are either protected or inaccessible by CANBUS by design. With an ECU rewrite, there is no need to alter X, Y, and Z. You can change the entire equation to ax^2+b^3y+c/z if you want to.

[NWS4Guy]

Not to be taken out of context, I don't discount piggybacks in general, I do for our cars, mainly for many of the points Helix points out. I know that the JB3 is a monster and does things veyr well for the 335i, however, since this ECU we have is locked down, the piggy can ONLY feed the ECU bogus signals from the sensors the piggy attaches to, it cannot change the hard set limitations that Audi has in place on the ECU. Think about this one aspect (of which there are hundreds if not thousands to consider with remapping an ECU).

MTM/ABT piggyback wants the car to make more power, so in this case it decides to fool the ECU into running rich, putting more fuel into the cylinders to make more power. It can still only tell the ECU "Run richer" it cannot control how rich, and it cannot exceed the limit of how rich Audi has coded the ECU to run the car, no matter what signals it sends.

APR tune wants the car to make more power, so in this case it decides to dump in more fuel, and since APR tune IS the ECU, it is getting 100% accurate, real-world numbers on what that extra fuel is doing and making changes based on the accurate feedback it is getting from the sensors. This makes the tune safer, more adaptable, and able to make more power.

[HAWKiS5]

I am not an expert on this issue, but what I understood from an expert source at ABT, is that their ECU is connected via the CANBUS and because of this, has access to key data from all required sensors, and so can act correspondly what is best for any situation. As I understood it can therefore access x, y as well as z signals and set parameters a, b and c as desired. Because it has (potentially) access to all kind of vehicle data, it can for instance offer different performance/characteristics ot the Engine depending on e.g. outside temperature, oil temp, rpm, which key used (so your wife has less power than you :-)), etc, etc, etc.

In this way, as a4rings already stated, a much more versatile tune is possible than with "flashing the ECU" only. This also can explain the higher price of ABT (and MTM). Don't forget ABT is a very professional company, long time active in motor sport, and very close to Audi (in this area, Abt is the only one offering chip tuning with warranty on the same level as the factory warranty).
In theory a better mileage will be the result also, assuming a similar driving style as before the tune.

But ok, will let you know my real life experience about all this in a few weeks when my car will have 435 HP and 520 Nm! :-))

[Info@EuroCode]

ABT and MTM are very close in relationship to Audi...bottom line is that as of today, APR is the only game in town when it comes to ECU recalibration.

A piggyback setup is only a signal converter, all it can do is trick the ECU by changing the voltages that the sensors are providing to it, thus the ECU is always reactive rather than proactive.

How advanced the ECU is or is not has nothing to do with the ability for a piggyback system, it is only as good as the software that has been written for it, just because you can pull a signal from the CANBUS to give to the piggy, you are still in a reactive enviroment.

[helix139]

I am not an expert on this issue, but what I understood from an expert source at ABT, is that their ECU is connected via the CANBUS and because of this, has access to key data from all required sensors, and so can act correspondly what is best for any situation. As I understood it can therefore access x, y as well as z signals and set parameters a, b and c as desired. Because it has (potentially) access to all kind of vehicle data, it can for instance offer different performance/characteristics ot the Engine depending on e.g. outside temperature, oil temp, rpm, which key used (so your wife has less power than you :-)), etc, etc, etc.

In this way, as a4rings already stated, a much more versatile tune is possible than with "flashing the ECU" only. This also can explain the higher price of ABT (and MTM). Don't forget ABT is a very professional company, long time active in motor sport, and very close to Audi (in this area, Abt is the only one offering chip tuning with warranty on the same level as the factory warranty).
In theory a better mileage will be the result also, assuming a similar driving style as before the tune.

But ok, will let you know my real life experience about all this in a few weeks when my car will have 435 HP and 520 Nm! :-))

You honestly think an piggyback can access more data than the ECU? The ABT/MTM, nor any other piggyback, is going to be able to close the boost valve that opens at 5000RPMs. It's just not accessible through the CANBUS and ultimately will limit what any piggyback can do. Additionally, with Voltron's car we found out that Piggybacks are fairly inconsistent on this car as the ECU actually adapts to the piggyback. Couple that with the fact that APR has found the B8 S4 to be fairly aggressively tuned from the factory south of ~5000RPM where the boost bleeds off and the piggy just looks less and less appealing for our cars. So sometimes you may see some gains, but ultimately the ECU reflash will always be superior for the B8 S4. Oh, and you might want to read the thread about Voltron's MTM experience before you count on 435HP. Additionally, APR is currently developing map switching for the B8 S4 with valet mode, security lockout, etc. that is more advanced than anything offered on the piggybacks.

Honestly, it's not even close for this car. The ECU reflash is superior in every way.

[wwhan]

......Additionally, with Voltron's car we found out that Piggybacks are fairly inconsistent on this car as the ECU actually adapts to the piggyback....
Honestly, it's not even close for this car. The ECU reflash is superior in every way.

+1 This; "ECU actually adapts to the piggyback" is the one of the key issues, which also happens with the sprint booster.

The B8 S4 adapts to how one drives it, after a couple of days of very aggressive driving, it turns into a monster.

Go Read the Voltrons_Head MTM experience, 929 posts. He eventually removed the MTM & got the APR ECU tune.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...?highlight=mtm

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...?highlight=mtm

[Voltrons_Head]

Apr Ecu is the tits. MTM not so much.

Tho a guy on audiworld got 360awhp with MTM piggy. Wtf? Maybe he had a different sw version than I.

To mtm's credit they gave me a full refund. Despite not getting he results I wanted, the people at MTM were very nice and professional and did spend a lotod time with me trying different programs trying to get them to perform as advertised.

Hawkis5.- could you dyno your car before and after the install? That would be worthwhile for you so you can make sure that you don't have a problem like I had. Or better yet take your car to a dragstrip before and after.

Good luck. I hope of works out well for you.

[masschaoz]

Apr Ecu is the tits. MTM not so much.

Tho a guy on audiworld got 360awhp with MTM piggy. Wtf? Maybe he had a different sw version than I.

To mtm's credit they gave me a full refund. Despite not getting he results I wanted, the people at MTM were very nice and professional and did spend a lotod time with me trying different programs trying to get them to perform as advertised.

Hawkis5.- could you dyno your car before and after the install? That would be worthwhile for you so you can make sure that you don't have a problem like I had. Or better yet take your car to a dragstrip before and after.

Good luck. I hope of works out well for you.

there indeed has been a software revision for the mtm cantronic. and for my mtm S4 over here in Singapore, it sure is alot faster than before it was tuned. Not sure if its faster than the APR S4 on our end as most of us are on MTM, only 1 i know of is on apr thus far..

[S4twister]

Really good thread. I didn't read about Voltron's MTM expericence before, comfirms my point to some extent.

[primetime]

there indeed has been a software revision for the mtm cantronic. and for my mtm S4 over here in Singapore, it sure is alot faster than before it was tuned. Not sure if its faster than the APR S4 on our end as most of us are on MTM, only 1 i know of is on apr thus far..

Do you have a dragstrip that you and the APR car could visit? Would love to see it... There is a person very close to me that posted a rather impressive MTM tune dyno.... I have invited him to attend a dragstrip visit with me.... haven't heard back..... Hmmmm....

[CBRmatt600]

Do you have a dragstrip that you and the APR car could visit? Would love to see it... There is a person very close to me that posted a rather impressive MTM tune dyno.... I have invited him to attend a dragstrip visit with me.... haven't heard back..... Hmmmm....

Having driven the APR S4, I would be absolutely shocked if an MTM piggy back car even came anywhere close. Trust me, the APR tune is seriously worth the money.

[Voltrons_Head]

there indeed has been a software revision for the mtm cantronic. and for my mtm S4 over here in Singapore, it sure is alot faster than before it was tuned. Not sure if its faster than the APR S4 on our end as most of us are on MTM, only 1 i know of is on apr thus far..

Good to hear. It was needed.

I'm bound to silence but I'm not the only one who had the same results as I. It just wasn't public.

[PsYkHoTiK]

Pure speculation on my part, but correct me if I'm wrong. A piggy back does nothing for the fact that the boost won't get into the engine past 5K RPM due to the bypass valve opening right?

[Voltrons_Head]

Pure speculation on my part, but correct me if I'm wrong. A piggy back does nothing for the fact that the boost won't get into the engine past 5K RPM due to the bypass valve opening right?

That's right and the guy's dyno graph on Audiworld confirmed that as the curve was the same as the stock car.

[primetime]

Having driven the APR S4, I would be absolutely shocked if an MTM piggy back car even came anywhere close. Trust me, the APR tune is seriously worth the money.

Matt, I am running the 100 tune so I am aware of that.... If you think the 93 is impressive the 100 is all that and more at least based on the results I have seen vs others... Just my .02

[BadandyAudi]

Pure speculation on my part, but correct me if I'm wrong. A piggy back does nothing for the fact that the boost won't get into the engine past 5K RPM due to the bypass valve opening right?

I've read this a couple of times and can't help but thinking "Why does the S4 do this stock?" Why would Audi open the bypass valve if such great gains can be had by not doing so? And lastly, how can someone claim that the APR tune doesn't put wear on the engine that wouldn't be there in stock form if this is the case?

Just confused.

[NWS4Guy]

I've read this a couple of times and can't help but thinking "Why does the S4 do this stock?" Why would Audi open the bypass valve if such great gains can be had by not doing so? And lastly, how can someone claim that the APR tune doesn't put wear on the engine that wouldn't be there in stock form if this is the case?

Just confused.

Stock for stock the ~$55-60K 4 door "family car" B8 S4 is only marginally slower than the ~$70-90K 2 door, sports coupe RS5.

Add the $1500 APR 93 octane tune and a ~$2000 cat back exhaust system, and the RS5 will lose.

Why did Audi "detune" the S4? The same reason they have the exact same engine in the A6 as is in the S4, and the A6 makes far less HP stock than the S4 - they don't want to internally cannibalize their own cars with infighting and competition. Changing the power on the engine is a great way to say "we did it for the planet and the carbon footprint, and to save fuel while staying sporty and powerful" but really meaning "No one would buy the RS5 if it was common knowlege that you could get the 4 door version for 20K less and smoke it's ass."

[PsYkHoTiK]

Yup, just proper market segmentation. Same engine/design that can be applied across multiple offerings (and gain economics of scale)? All the better for them. Engine and chassis are among the two most expensive to develop. That's why they're usually spread out across a manufacturer's offerings (platforms). Everyone does it. There are a lot of other examples in the auto industry. Infiniti G37 and the Nissan 370z (the "VQ" engine's multiple flavors/iterations have been around for quite a while). GM's usage of the "LS" engines.

[BadandyAudi]

Stock for stock the ~$55-60K 4 door "family car" B8 S4 is only marginally slower than the ~$70-90K 2 door, sports coupe RS5.

Add the $1500 APR 93 octane tune and a ~$2000 cat back exhaust system, and the RS5 will lose.

Why did Audi "detune" the S4? The same reason they have the exact same engine in the A6 as is in the S4, and the A6 makes far less HP stock than the S4 - they don't want to internally cannibalize their own cars with infighting and competition. Changing the power on the engine is a great way to say "we did it for the planet and the carbon footprint, and to save fuel while staying sporty and powerful" but really meaning "No one would buy the RS5 if it was common knowlege that you could get the 4 door version for 20K less and smoke it's ass."

I definitely understand that the A6 has a detuned version of our engines. I'd be kind of pissed if I was an A6 owner but I get it. But who are we (or APR) to say that the S4's engine can handle the extra APR power in a completely safe manner? It's not like the RS5 has the same engine with more power; the S4's output is top for this engine.

Thanks for the replies btw.

[clochner]

the S4's output is top for this engine.

Little confused. Are you saying that the S4's power is at its peak in stock form? Obviously that's not the case - just go pick up an APR or Stasis tune and see for yourself.

[primetime]

the S4's output is top for this engine.

For now... there was some pics of a upgraded Q5 that was rated at 400+ HP that was using basically the same motor all though it did have to intakes, but most of the power probably came from.... you guessed it tuning....

[S4twister]

I definitely understand that the A6 has a detuned version of our engines. I'd be kind of pissed if I was an A6 owner but I get it. But who are we (or APR) to say that the S4's engine can handle the extra APR power in a completely safe manner? It's not like the RS5 has the same engine with more power; the S4's output is top for this engine.

Thanks for the replies btw.

I think it's commonly used, but not entirely correct to talk about "safe" engine modificaion.
There's no such thing as "safe" performance mod. If something is done to stock engine to increase it's output, it will decrease it's life span, as extraction of more power results in more wear on engine components, by definition. The question is by how much exactly will particular mod affect engine useful life before major repair - decrease it by 1%, 5%, or maybe 20%?
To answer your question, I think APR did extensive testing to determine that their products (including ECU flash) will result in minimal/acceptable additional wear on engine, to not cause major problems too soon :)

[CBRmatt600]

Matt, I am running the 100 tune so I am aware of that.... If you think the 93 is impressive the 100 is all that and more at least based on the results I have seen vs others... Just my .02

Duh, I didn't even look to see who I was responding to. Keith and I had a discussion about your car when I was down there as a matter of fact.

[primetime]

Duh, I didn't even look to see who I was responding to. Keith and I had a discussion about your car when I was down there as a matter of fact.

Care to share... You can pm me if needed... appreciate it! later Ron

[NWS4Guy]

I definitely understand that the A6 has a detuned version of our engines. I'd be kind of pissed if I was an A6 owner but I get it. But who are we (or APR) to say that the S4's engine can handle the extra APR power in a completely safe manner? It's not like the RS5 has the same engine with more power; the S4's output is top for this engine.

Thanks for the replies btw.

APR used, and continues to use their B8 S4 race car, as well as the owner's DD (also a B8 S4) to test things out. They literally took the race car to the ragged edge in many ways and lost a few engines finding out where the limits are. There is a reason that their tune is rebranded and sold as Stasis with a warranty from Stasis to back the car.

[BLACKS4-10]

Stock for stock the ~$55-60K 4 door "family car" B8 S4 is only marginally slower than the ~$70-90K 2 door, sports coupe RS5.

Add the $1500 APR 93 octane tune and a ~$2000 cat back exhaust system, and the RS5 will lose.

Why did Audi "detune" the S4? The same reason they have the exact same engine in the A6 as is in the S4, and the A6 makes far less HP stock than the S4 - they don't want to internally cannibalize their own cars with infighting and competition. Changing the power on the engine is a great way to say "we did it for the planet and the carbon footprint, and to save fuel while staying sporty and powerful" but really meaning "No one would buy the RS5 if it was common knowlege that you could get the 4 door version for 20K less and smoke it's ass."

Actually,the APR tune is on sale for $1350 from most major vendors right now.

2010 A6=300HP-300tq2010 S4=333HP-325tq so I wouldn't be calling that "far less" power.I had an 2010 A6 twice as a loaner and can say that it's fast but only a little bit slower than the S4 due to less aggressive ECU mapping and engine tune.A6 is comfortable luxury cruiser((moderate tune)S4 is comfortable quick agile sports sedan(aggressive tune) and RS5 is an all out 2 door sports coupe with a guzzling V8 just under the R8.

[jcmiro]

The A6 3.0t just changes in delivery of the power. Of the top of my head 30-50 hp is lost in the conversion of the gear box...."Our" DSG is a lot more efficient and advanced that the tiptronic.....hence the difference in feel....

[wwhan]

APR has an ECU tune for the A6 3.0T

[HAWKiS5]

Apr Ecu is the tits. MTM not so much.

Tho a guy on audiworld got 360awhp with MTM piggy. Wtf? Maybe he had a different sw version than I.

To mtm's credit they gave me a full refund. Despite not getting he results I wanted, the people at MTM were very nice and professional and did spend a lotod time with me trying different programs trying to get them to perform as advertised.

Hawkis5.- could you dyno your car before and after the install? That would be worthwhile for you so you can make sure that you don't have a problem like I had. Or better yet take your car to a dragstrip before and after.

Good luck. I hope of works out well for you.

Apparantly a lot has changed since then. Here you find a power and torque curve of an S4 as standard and with MTM:
MTM with 434 PS and 575 Nm.

As you can see originally it had 334 PS (so 1 PS more than the specs) and 442 Nm of torque (2 Nm more than spec) and after the MTM tuning, it has 434 PS and 575 Nm!

Apparantly the custom config of MTM (and Abt) tuning solution is key to have good results?

Can imagine that on a US focussed forum people "love" APR and on a German forum MTM/Abt/etc, but would be nice to have a more objective opinion of the diffrerent solutions available.

[PsYkHoTiK]

I think it's not so much as a biased/love. Piggybacks "trick" the ECU into outputting more "power". A ECU flash/tune recalibrates things to make more power (and efficient). The difference? APR's tune doesn't cut out boost past 5k rpm (so APR flashed S4s keep pulling hard till readline). A piggyback can't "trick" something that is hardcoded into the ECU (bypass valve opening at ~5k rpm). The graph you linked shows that. There's a few dyno graphs here that show power increase continuously through the range for APR tuned S4s.

EDIT: Here's how an ECU Flashed dyno looks like (HP continues to climb past where a "stock" ECU would open up the bypass valve - which recirculates boost into the supercharger and not into the engine):

[primetime]

Apparantly a lot has changed since then. Here you find a power and torque curve of an S4 as standard and with MTM:
MTM with 434 PS and 575 Nm.

As you can see originally it had 334 PS (so 1 PS more than the specs) and 442 Nm of torque (2 Nm more than spec) and after the MTM tuning, it has 434 PS and 575 Nm!

Apparantly the custom config of MTM (and Abt) tuning solution is key to have good results?

Can imagine that on a US focussed forum people "love" APR and on a German forum MTM/Abt/etc, but would be nice to have a more objective opinion of the diffrerent solutions available.

LOL! Really? "A more objective opinion" Wow... Well there is one person on here(voltron) who has had both and he doesn't even own an S4 anymore... I think his experiences with both products are about as objective as we are going to get... I think we all know where he stands....

[NWS4Guy]

Nice dyno chart, right up to 5,500RPM when the boost gets dumped. Mine's like a ski jump right to redline

[Voltrons_Head]

Can imagine that on a US focussed forum people "love" APR and on a German forum MTM/Abt/etc, but would be nice to have a more objective opinion of the diffrerent solutions available.

The thing about it is that there are more than a dozen before and after dyno graphs floating around here for APR's tune and tons of people with 1/4 mile time results. With MTM there just isn't enough data to form a positive opinion. Perhaps if there were more positive data for mtm floating around here people would be more open minded about the product.

Of the four people around here who we know tried it there was only one with favorable results.

[primetime]

I just sent another PM to the fellow who lives near me and posted his MTM results on AW... Asked him if he would like to visit the dragstrip with me, shoot the shit on the cars and make some passes... Will see if he replies this time?

[NWS4Guy]

I just sent another PM to the fellow who lives near me and posted his MTM results on AW... Asked him if he would like to visit the dragstrip with me, shoot the shit on the cars and make some passes... Will see if he replies this time?

Video or it never happened.

[primetime]

Video or it never happened.

What, me sending him a PM? LOL I've sent a few... hehe... If he goes and runs a decent time 12.7 at 110+ or better I'll be the first to congratulate him and come on here and eat crow... Oh and of course I would get the passes on vid.... This year I will be posting both in car vids and outside of the car vids of all my passes... Assuming I can ever find a weekend it doesn't rain! LOL

[KarimS3]

What, me sending him a PM? LOL I've sent a few... hehe... If he goes and runs a decent time 12.7 at 110+ or better I'll be the first to congratulate him and come on here and eat crow... Oh and of course I would get the passes on vid.... This year I will be posting both in car vids and outside of the car vids of all my passes... Assuming I can ever find a weekend it doesn't rain! LOL

YES!

[Ynnekdude]

APR has an ECU tune for the A6 3.0T

Yep. I have it!