6.0 LS2 with Built ZF 5hp19FL???

[diagnosticator]

Yes, the rear housing with the center torsen diff can be removed, but then a different housing will need to replace it. The Axel ratios are for the internal front differential and the rear Axel differential ring and pinion ratios. the center diff does not have a ring and pinion, and you are removing it anyway.

[Scotty@Advanced]

I'm new to the forum, and looking for additional information. I am doing a Mid-engine GTM supercar http://www.factoryfive.com/gtmhome.html (give you an idea of the engine/trans layout) and instead of doing the normal Porsche manual mated to an LSX engine, I plan on using an automatic trans. From a ton of research I have done, looks like the 5HP19FL is almost the perfect candidate. I realize this trans is factory rated at 300Nm of Tq used in everyting from 1.8-3.7 V8 engines, but all of the factory vehicles seem to weigh in around 3500-4000lbs, while GTM weighs 2500lbs with driver.

As far as gearing this is what I have, and interesting enough I have found 3 different Final drive ratios. trans code (green label on trans) EZS, DDT, EFP = 3.73 final. DPS, DRD = 3.41 final. And EZZ, CJZ = 3.09 final
1st 3.67 : 1
2nd 2.00 : 1
3rd 1.41 : 1
4th 1.00 : 1
5th 0.74 : 1
Reverse 4.10 : 1

It seems several shops (Trans specialties, IPT, 517) build this transaxle and I have heard 700hp is roughly the top number it can be built up too? I am shooting for around 480-500 to the rear wheels again vehicle weight in my advantage as well.

An adapter seems like it should be pretty easy, I can either build one myself or possible buy the existing Audi 5000-LSX adapter (It appears to share the same bellhousing from pics)

The Tq converter I can approach from a few directions and here I am a little concerned. The 5hp19fl Tq converters dimensions are 9 1/4 bolt circle, diamter 10 7/8, 3 mounting pads (which all is great), but its OAH (overall height from hub to mounting pad) is only 4.380, not a lot of room in there to really beef this thing up with clutches and all IMO? Another option is to use the 4.2 liter Quattro converter (IF POSSIBLE??) which has an OAH of 5.670which is pretty close to what the 4L60E is. Last option and most expensive (about twice as much) is to use a 4L60E converter with the Audi pump and hub (27 spline) welded to the GM converter. This way it will bolt on without any modifiing. Otherwise 3 new holes need to be drilled in flexplate and a adapter over the pilot to fit snug on the crankshaft (no big deal really, mainly worried about them being strong enough).

Controlling it I plan on using the PCS trans control, last time I checked they offer it for the 5hp19 series trans, so getting this to work with a GM engine wouldn't be a big deal. Anyone useing the PCS on here?

Shifter I plan on using probably just a Passat (same trans as the audi) factory shifter with a custom cable (longer) since the trans is cable shifted.

Ive reseached this topic and it seems that with a converter upgrade this trans can take a bit of a beating?
Opinions?? Advice??? info seem correct??

The 5HP19 is a good transmission but even the "built" ones can exhibit issue after 500 hp. 700hp is almost a guarantee for failure. For an automatic you really need to be looking for a 5HP24, however I don't think the FWD 5HP24 came to North America, I do believe it can be found in certain European diesel models. An even better choice would be the 5HP24 from an RS6 with the rear drive section deleted. The RS6 version of the 5HP24 had a much large torque converter (11.5 inches IIRC).

The Audi ZF gearboxes have a set of gears that transmit power to the front diff from the rear of the transmission, and by changing those gears you can change the overall drive ratio and not have to purchase or make an expensive crown wheel and pinion. IIRC pretty much all the Audi 5hp19 gearboxes have the same internal ratios, it's the final drive and transfer gears that differ in ratio.

Another thing to consider is an automatically shifted manual transmission. The 01E manual gearboxes can hold up to a ton of power and there are a few companies that offer automated shifting computers with paddles and the like for a number of gearboxes.

[GMguy]

diagnosticator are you saying when I removed the rear housing I can just make an aluminum plate to cover it or some type of gear setup needs to be added??
Scotty thanks for the reply as well, I know the RS6 used the same internal 5hp24A but like you said a larger Tq converter and if I am not mistaken more line pressure. As far as the TQ converter goes the standard 5hp24A in the 4.2's used around a 10 7/8 to 11 inch converter, I figure it has more to do with internal mods than size? Look at all the small 8inch TQ converters used in high hp drag racing applications. As far as I am aware ZF never made a FWD 5hp24 only the RWD 5hp24 and the AWD 5hp24A which is the one I am wanting to use, just wondering whats involved in getting it to work as a FWD.

I have looked into the manual shifted automatics, in fact I have a 4L80E in a procharged TA that uses a paddle shift system, but I like the gearing of the 24A and 19FL much more.

I know the manaul guys that have AWD transmissions talk about removing the rear housing (transfer case) and welding up the center differential, does the same have to be dont to an automatic or can I just removed the rear housing, bolt up a aluminum plate to enclose it (I can make that) and the trans would transmit all the power to the front?????

[GMguy]

BTW just found this accoring to my source
RS6 converter- Diameter 12inches, 10 1/8 bolt circle, 5.685 hub to mounting pad distance (OAH), pilot size .629
4.2 Audi quattro--Diamter 11inches, 9 1/4 bolt circle, 5.670 hub to mounting pad distance, pilot size .629
6.0 Phaeton used a 12inch converter

Of course all 27 spline

[GMguy]

Here is a cutaway of the 5hp24A aka o1L transmission http://www.audipages.com/Tech_Articl...nsmission.html im not a transmission guru but I am wanting to delete everything behind to 2 large gears in the back, or would more need to be deleted? Hoping I can just delete the rear housing and thats all?

[GMguy]

Hope I can get some clarification?

Looked at ZF for the 5hp19FL and FLA and they use the same rebuilt kit and I looked at every page in the manual and even the internals are all the same, only thing different is the rear housing, which now I know houses the Center differential. For some reason I thought the center differential was located else where. Almost like the AWD system was an afterthought from the FWD unit.

This tells me the 5hp24A can do the samething and delete the rear and make it FWD, no more center differential.

[Scotty@Advanced]

Hope I can get some clarification?

Looked at ZF for the 5hp19FL and FLA and they use the same rebuilt kit and I looked at every page in the manual and even the internals are all the same, only thing different is the rear housing, which now I know houses the Center differential. For some reason I thought the center differential was located else where. Almost like the AWD system was an afterthought from the FWD unit.

This tells me the 5hp24A can do the samething and delete the rear and make it FWD, no more center differential.

You will have to get a new set of transfer gears manufactured as the FWD versus AWD gearsets are different. On the AWD boxes power is routed through the output of the transmission to the center differential then to the transfer gears. The FWD version the output of the transmission is routed just to the transfer gears.

It would likely cost $2-3,000 to have new gears manufactured.

[GMguy]

Man thats not what I wanted to hear considering the 5hp24A seemed up to the task as far as my power goals. Scotty did you ever look at this webpage http://tomboynton.com/Audi.html

The transfer gears are the 3 gears near the back of the trans correct, directly before the center differential (from bellhousing back)
Ultimate goal is roughly 480rwhp 440wtq

[Scotty@Advanced]

The transfer gears are the 3 gears near the back of the trans correct, directly before the center differential (from bellhousing back)
Ultimate goal is roughly 480rwhp 440wtq

Yes the output shaft of the transmission goes through the top gear to the center diff, and the center diff in turn attaches to the outside of the top gear. You could make a splined adapter of sorts to join the gear and shaft together, however there's still a major investment to manufacture that part, you could also weld the output shaft to the gear but that would for all intents and purposes make the transmission disposable in the event it needed internal repairs, plus welding case hardened parts together is always a bad idea.

[GMguy]

Bought a 5hp19FL off an 01 2.8 GLS with 30,000 miles and converter for $290, also got a shifter/n cable for $43 shipped. Cable is way to short but I can config something to work. Going to have ACE converters do me a high end converter (same as EDGE racing who does a lot of Domestic converters) and I can actually trust these guys, converter only cost $424. Talked to Russ (owner of PCS) and a controller and harness from them is no problem, even set me up with a base tune. Alot of porshce guys use this box with there 5hp19's, maybe get in contact with some of them? I can buy an aluminum 1/2 to 5/8 thick plate for $100 so I can make an audi to LS adapter plate.

[alipendier]

Interesting setup if it works...

[Scotty@Advanced]

Bought a 5hp19FL off an 01 2.8 GLS with 30,000 miles and converter for $290, also got a shifter/n cable for $43 shipped. Cable is way to short but I can config something to work. Going to have ACE converters do me a high end converter (same as EDGE racing who does a lot of Domestic converters) and I can actually trust these guys, converter only cost $424. Talked to Russ (owner of PCS) and a controller and harness from them is no problem, even set me up with a base tune. Alot of porshce guys use this box with there 5hp19's, maybe get in contact with some of them? I can buy an aluminum 1/2 to 5/8 thick plate for $100 so I can make an audi to LS adapter plate.

Funny how price is always tantamount to wise provisioning of components.

Another problem is the tiptronics are much wider than the manuals and depending upon your setup can create some pretty nasty cv shaft angles. If you don't put a kit in that transmission all of that work will be for naught, stock clutches don't last long under that kind of power, and the thing about the zf transmissions, it's not use but time that degrades the rubber piston parts. Also you need to replace the 3rd gear drum, it was defective from manufacture on all 5hp series transmission to 2003.

[GMguy]

Only mentioned price because I got a really good deal

Cv angles shouldn't be an issue, plenty of room in the back to line them up to the rear wheels. I believe the axles flanges are 108mm so I can use 930 style axles (a shorter axles will be needed, but again, angle wont be an issue) believe there operating range is up to 25 degrees, be well within that. Never had trouble with any trans sitting for any time period, as long as there is fluid inside.

Scott what do you mean by kit? Don't see why this trans wouldn't work as is, if there is issue I can pull it out and have it rebuilt. Plan to do a Tq converter upgrade and Valvebody first and see how it goes.

[alipendier]

Plan to do a Tq converter upgrade and Valvebody first and see how it goes.

How are you going to upgrade the 5HP19 TC and Valve body, is it going to be DIY?

[GMguy]

Ill have ACE converters build the TQ converter up, and have either 517 or IPT do the Valvebody. Both can be installed by yourself. I was looking at the Trans yesterday, may be easier to just cut the existing bellhousing off and weld on an 4L60E housing

[Scotty@Advanced]

Only mentioned price because I got a really good deal

Cv angles shouldn't be an issue, plenty of room in the back to line them up to the rear wheels. I believe the axles flanges are 108mm so I can use 930 style axles (a shorter axles will be needed, but again, angle wont be an issue) believe there operating range is up to 25 degrees, be well within that. Never had trouble with any trans sitting for any time period, as long as there is fluid inside.

Scott what do you mean by kit? Don't see why this trans wouldn't work as is, if there is issue I can pull it out and have it rebuilt. Plan to do a Tq converter upgrade and Valvebody first and see how it goes.

No CV flanges are 130mm tripod style.

Pump more than 350 ft/lbs through a stock 5HP19 will result in slipping clutches. Even build 5hp19's are pretty well documented to start slipping at > 450 ft/lbs. A kit is an overhaul kit. Not to mention the diff (IMHO) is way too weak to handle the full brunt of an LSX V8 engine. In a quattro gearbox, the front diff never sees all the power in a FWD box the diff sees all the power. This will be an interesting and likely expensive experiment.

[GunSupplier]

Did this expensive experiment ever happen? I wonder what happened to GMguy. I kind of wanted to see an LSX decimating a 5HP19...haha.

Scotty, you need to give details about your secret underground 5HP19 Tial project car!

[Elizabeth1979]

I think the lesson here is to be wiser when picking a car. It is not a candy that we buy in the grocery. Cars are expensive stuff so we have to choose what's really fit for our style and budget.

[RS_666]

Hi,

Not sure how you went or did but I'm interested to know if you or anyone else has been successful in controlling a 5HP24 with a PCS TCM-2000 aftermarket TCU?