Did the cam tensioner seals and cam caps last night...

[NOTORIOUS VR]

Using the lift and tuck method my Audi mechanic buddy told me about... Aside from having to remove all the crap around the VC's to get the compression tool in there and undo the bolts for the cam tensioner...

The actual replacing of the seal and half moon too about 2 min... Not that bad of a job @ all... took me 4 hours (which included a Pizza dinner break and helping my other buddy on his car for wiring). So I'm pretty confident it can be done in an hour per side.

Anyone else used that method?

[Rated S]

Can you elaborate on the method?

[pearlwhite]

Not sure what the lift and tuck method is.

I did mine last weekend. I was surprised at how easy it was!

[NOTORIOUS VR]

Basically, once the VC is off you install the tool to compress the tensioner slowly compressing it until it's collapsed.

Then you take out the 4 screws holding down the tensioner, then you put the car into 6th gear and start to roll it back or forward until the slack from the chain between the cams goes from the bottom of the heads to the top and the tensioner just pops up about 8-10mm giving you lots of room to just slide out the seal and the half moon.

Then just replace the seals making sure it's properly lined up on the dowel pins and screw down the tensioner and you're done! Remove the compression tool and reassemble the VC.

[pearlwhite]

Ah ok.

I used the compression tool, but found it to be worthless. The plastic around the tool broke off as soon as any real pressure was applied. And it's such a rip off @ $40 for something made in Taiwan for $1.

I had just enough room after removing the 4 TC bolts to slide the moon and gasket out.

[blmlozz]

I didn't use the 6th gear method, I just compressed it with the tool and did it that way, too a bit longer since I had less room to work with, mabye 3-4mm instead of the 8-10.. that's a crazy amount.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

Ah ok.

I used the compression tool, but found it to be worthless. The plastic around the tool broke off as soon as any real pressure was applied. And it's such a rip off @ $40 for something made in Taiwan for $1.

I had just enough room after removing the 4 TC bolts to slide the moon and gasket out.

The trick is to compress the tensioner very slowly.. Even wait for a min or two between tightening because the oil needs to be pressed out. If you just crank it down yes you will snap it.

I'm curious as to how you guys even got enough room to get at the seals. After compressing I wasn't able to lift the tensioner at all since the chain was tight between the cams on top and all the slack was on the bottom, which is why I had to rotate the engine bringing the slack up top.

[dla79]

Basically, once the VC is off you install the tool to compress the tensioner slowly compressing it until it's collapsed.

Then you take out the 4 screws holding down the tensioner, then you put the car into 6th gear and start to roll it back or forward until the slack from the chain between the cams goes from the bottom of the heads to the top and the tensioner just pops up about 8-10mm giving you lots of room to just slide out the seal and the half moon.

Then just replace the seals making sure it's properly lined up on the dowel pins and screw down the tensioner and you're done! Remove the compression tool and reassemble the VC.

Used that method too a buddy of mine fowed me. It made it super easy since you got so much extra room!

[Matt Danger]

Instead of rocking the car in 6th gear you can also put a breaker bar on the crank and turn the motor over until you get some slack in the chain.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

Instead of rocking the car in 6th gear you can also put a breaker bar on the crank and turn the motor over until you get some slack in the chain.

yup that would work too... but I find it easier to just push the car.

[GetAwayFromMe]

I have been using that method for years. Takes me about 1.5 hours to replace. You should clean up the surface really good before you tuck the new seal in. Never had a customer come back with it leaking or any other problems.

[scottrs4avant]

Thanks to this write-up and many others, I was able to successfully change my half-moon and metal gasket. My only experience was stupidly doing the valve covers a few weeks ago, which did not fix my oil leak problem.

I did not have the tool, and I was afraid of messing something up, but I got the tool, and used these and other write-ups to help get it done successfully. So far so good.

For the record, I also replaced my spider hose, and my oil cap, in hopes of preventing this problem from my driver's side and from coming again on the passenger's side any time soon.

Thanks again,
Scottr20AE
S4 Avant(6-speed)

[imola]

Thanks for the tip. I might do all my seals while the engine is out as well.

[scottrs4avant]

Instead of rocking the car in 6th gear you can also put a breaker bar on the crank and turn the motor over until you get some slack in the chain.

Not to sound dumb, but what tools are you using to do this...brands, etc? I have a 1/2 inch Craftsman drive and a 24mm Mr.Goodwrench socket, and I tried for hours(plus blood sweat and tears) to put the socket on the crank bolt, but I could not get it on there, at least not together. I confirmed the socket fits fine, but the fans were in the way. I took a couple of the fan wire loom/guides out, but still could not get the socket on there.

How does everyone do this?

I just bumped the starter a few times, before I actually started it, along with marking the chain in 2 places, and made sure everything lined up, before I put it all back together.

[DaveS4]

Lucky bastards, I had to pull my cams out due to the chain being half a tooth off when I opened it up... I'm shocked I haven't bent a valve or something.


Slightly on this topic, when I have my tensioners out, is there any way to tell if they are dying? If they need to be replaced, I'd like to do it now...

[Matt Danger]

Not to sound dumb, but what tools are you using to do this...brands, etc? I have a 1/2 inch Craftsman drive and a 24mm Mr.Goodwrench socket, and I tried for hours(plus blood sweat and tears) to put the socket on the crank bolt, but I could not get it on there, at least not together. I confirmed the socket fits fine, but the fans were in the way. I took a couple of the fan wire loom/guides out, but still could not get the socket on there.

How does everyone do this?

I just bumped the starter a few times, before I actually started it, along with marking the chain in 2 places, and made sure everything lined up, before I put it all back together.

Get to it from underneath. I've used a 1/2" ratchet without an extension and also a long box end wrench. I also don't have the appropriate sized metric socket or wrench so I use a 15/16".

[scottrs4avant]

Get to it from underneath. I've used a 1/2" racket without an extension and also a long box end wrench. I also don't have the appropriate sized metric socket or wrench so I use a 15/16".

Yeah, I didn't have any extensions on it, I didn't consider a box wrench. I tried from the top and the bottom, mostly from the bottom.

Here's a question, did you have your car lifted at all? I think I tried it lifted a little by my swaybar, and lifted from the driver and passenger side front by the arrow on the rocker(one side at a time.) Just curious if I lessened my room any by lifting it, and causing a slight twist to give me less room in there.

[Matt Danger]

No I didn't have the car lifted, but my car also isn't very low. You might also want try a breaker bar instead of a ratchet

[scottrs4avant]

No I didn't have the car lifted, but my car also isn't very low. You might also want try a breaker bar instead of a ratchet

Can you elaborate? Do you mean to use something like the Gorilla Wrench?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/ima...1&s=automotive

Or do you mean just for more leverage? I was able to to turn the motor slightly, whenever I got the socket on(sort of), but I was not able to get the socket on solidly enough, and it kept slipping off, so I decided to make sure it was on, or not to try and turn it, for fear of stripping the bolt head.

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

He is referring to this little tool for the chain. I x2 the turning it slow because the oil adds back-pressure when tightening it down, slow and steady wins the race:
Click here for a cam chain tensioner tool


As per the crank, he means the socket plus a breaker bar is safer than trying to turn the crank with a ratchet.

[scottrs4avant]

He is refering to this little tool. I x2 the turning it slow because the oil adds back-pressure when tightening it down, slow and steady wins the race:
Click here for a METAL cam chain tensioner tool

Just for the record, who is referring to that tool?

Matt Danger said:
"breaker bar" a few posts ago

I bought that tool, and used it successfully. I just couldn't get a ratchet/socket head on my crank bolt to turn the motor over a few times, to be sure everything was ok, once I was done.

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

Notorious VR, Pearlwhite, and blmlozz - for the chain.

Did you try a breaker bar and socket? Probably a bit less clearance is needed for the breaker bar without the ratcheting machanism/head. Plus the breaker may pivot enough to allow you to get the socket on properly and then turn it. Though it sounds like you've solved it since then?

I used the breaker bar on my 2.8 V6 without issue, albeit not a 2.7tt

[NOTORIOUS VR]

^^^ That should work.. but I find pushing and/or pulling the car in 6th gear is much easier :)

[Matt Danger]

Did you try a breaker bar and socket? Probably a bit less clearance is needed for the breaker bar without the ratcheting machanism/head. Plus the breaker may pivot enough to allow you to get the socket on properly and then turn it.

This is what I was referring to. Using a breaker bar gives you a little better angle of approach.

^^^ That should work.. but I find pushing and/or pulling the car in 6th gear is much easier :)

LOL. I thought rotating the crank was pretty simple, but I guess it's hard to get to for some people. In that case, your rolling the car solution works better ;)

[scottrs4avant]

Notorious VR, Pearlwhite, and blmlozz - for the chain.

Did you try a breaker bar and socket? Probably a bit less clearance is needed for the breaker bar without the ratcheting machanism/head. Plus the breaker may pivot enough to allow you to get the socket on properly and then turn it. Though it sounds like you've solved it since then?

I used the breaker bar on my 2.8 V6 without issue, albeit not a 2.7tt

I have it taken care of, but for a few moments I was very scared(while bumping the starter) hoping everything was still correct in there. I really wanted to try and turn the motor over by the crank pulley bolt, but yeah I didn't try a breaker bar. I have one, and I will try that next time I need to do that.

[rms-s4]

Basically, once the VC is off you install the tool to compress the tensioner slowly compressing it until it's collapsed.

Then you take out the 4 screws holding down the tensioner, then you put the car into 6th gear and start to roll it back or forward until the slack from the chain between the cams goes from the bottom of the heads to the top and the tensioner just pops up about 8-10mm giving you lots of room to just slide out the seal and the half moon.

Then just replace the seals making sure it's properly lined up on the dowel pins and screw down the tensioner and you're done! Remove the compression tool and reassemble the VC.

to make it easier than rocking the car. just put a vise grip lightly grabbing the cam that doesn't have the belt on it and rotate it a little bit. same method. but less work

[walky_talky20]

to make it easier than rocking the car. just put a vise grip lightly grabbing the cam that doesn't have the belt on it and rotate it a little bit. same method. but less work

^^This is what I do. Vise grip the intake cam. Usually it is loaded such that it springs back and won't stay put. I usually use a bungee strap on the end of the vise grip to the fame rail or something to hold it in the desired position. Works great. The passenger side is a piece of cake. The driver's side is more difficult with the timing belt's rear metal cover all kinds of in your way. It doesn't allow the tensioner to come up as much, but still easily doable.

The real tricky part is the passenger side cam plug. Specifically getting the outside torx bolt out of the cap. You need a really low profile torx tool to do it.

[ironduke]

Ok, i'm doing the VC and chain tensioner gaskets, and put the cams at TDC (aligned the little notches to the the little arrows) before i used the chain tensioner tool to compress the tensioner. i'm only getting about 2-3mm of play, which was enough to get the tensioner gasket and half moon out, but not enough for me to get the new one in! it sounds like you guys are saying i should rotate the cams a little more to get the slack to the top, right?

if i do this, i'll no longer be in TDC (little notches no longer aligned with arrows). i don't really know why i had to be TDC in the first place, but i was under the impression it was very important to do so. it sounds like TDC is no big deal to you guys. what gives? i'm all for getting slack to the top, but not if it screws up my engine somehow!

[scottrs4avant]

TDC is just the easiest way to make sure nothing has moved. If you don't have it at TDC, just make sure you mark the position of the chain, and you can count the number of links in between the 2 notches(pivot points), I think its 15, or 16, Bentley has it listed. I'm sure someone knows the number.

If you do elect to move it, I would definitely take the tool out first, move it, and then put the tool back. You can move it by turning the crank bolt, or using the 6th gear trick, which just involves, putting your car into 6th, and then moving it backwards a little, to turn the engine.

[ironduke]

TDC is just the easiest way to make sure nothing has moved. If you don't have it at TDC, just make sure you mark the position of the chain, and you can count the number of links in between the 2 notches(pivot points), I think its 15, or 16, Bentley has it listed. I'm sure someone knows the number.

If you do elect to move it, I would definitely take the tool out first, move it, and then put the tool back. You can move it by turning the crank bolt, or using the 6th gear trick, which just involves, putting your car into 6th, and then moving it backwards a little, to turn the engine.

thanks. i think it's 16 from some other write up's i've read. i'll double check.

ok, so when i take out the compression tool, then crank it with a wrench, without the tool in there, will it be obvious when i have "more slack" at the top?

[scottrs4avant]

thanks. i think it's 16 from some other write up's i've read. i'll double check.

ok, so when i take out the compression tool, then crank it with a wrench, without the tool in there, will it be obvious when i have "more slack" at the top?

Hmmm, I don't think so, I would just say crank it maybe a quarter turn, or less, and then put the tool back in, and see if that helped with getting more space. Also 2 more things to note:
1. when using the tool, be sure to tighten it slowly, don't just crank it down with a wrench, or the plastic will break(or if you have the metal one from ECS, you may damage the cam adjuster, and you don't want to do that...$400, I think or more for a new one)
2. once you take the tool out, the cam adjust may not go back to into the same tensioned position, but if you turn the crank, that should get it moving and in its proper tensioned position again. It sounds like air is pumping in/out, both sound the same, but it scared me the first time I heard it make that sound, when I turned the engine at the crank bolt.

[alm001]

Use this diagram

(I am in the process of making a better looking diagram, and I'm going to have it engraved on my cam lock bar.)

I used this Tuesday night to fix my timing after an improper installation, and it went perfectly.
I did have to pull the intake cam and tensioner out to slip it, but i didnt have to take the whole thing apart thankfully.

[scottrs4avant]

Use this diagram

(I am in the process of making a better looking diagram, and I'm going to have it engraved on my cam lock bar.)

I used this Tuesday night to fix my timing after an improper installation, and it went perfectly.
I did have to pull the intake cam and tensioner out to slip it, but i didnt have to take the whole thing apart thankfully.

If you have the Bentley, I think it has a decent pic in it...I think. I know the instructions mentioning what to count, were good, I was impressed with that, since the Bentley can be vague at times(all too often.)

[RONDAL]

Thanks for the tip. I might do all my seals while the engine is out as well.

go to my build thread i have a pic showing how i rocked the cam using the alignment bar. basically does the same thing as described in this thread rolling the car

[ironduke]

ok, this may be a dumb question, but if there are always 15 links between cams, how does rotating the cams create more slack?

(it's taking me forever to do this job now that i have an infant in the house! plus, it's been about 10F-20F and not much warmer in the garage. so it's hard for me to trek to the garage to check things out in between questions. thanks for your patience.)

[blmlozz]

ok, this may be a dumb question, but if there are always 15 links between cams, how does rotating the cams create more slack?

(it's taking me forever to do this job now that i have an infant in the house! plus, it's been about 10F-20F and not much warmer in the garage. so it's hard for me to trek to the garage to check things out in between questions. thanks for your patience.)

When you first open up the VC's, there's residual tension from the tensioner, rotating the came produces some slack since there's no oil pressure to create tension. There is always slack, the tensioner puts tension on the chain to remove the slack.

[scottrs4avant]

I can't say its a dumb question, and I can't say I have the answer, I just like being on the safe side of the timing equation, and any "oops, didn't think of that" scenarios, I like to keep at bay. So, by no means is my thought fact, but I do believe its safe.

[coreyj]

i used the the same method as described earlier. except i clean the area as best i can and then coat the whole gasket top and bottom with red anerobic gasket sealer gives me peace of mind i guess cause ive never had it leak.

[subversion]

I used this method to get my cam chain tensioner gasket and crescent moon off. It was still pretty tight to work with (understatement of the century), but I managed to get it done. Thanks for posting this method.