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  1. #1
    Veteran Member Four Rings AudiSportB5S4's Avatar
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    IAT Comparison - VP M1 vs. Denatured Alcohol

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    I do these pulls on the exact same entrance ramp all the time, very level ground etc. It's not really the starting IATs that matter, but the delta is the difference between the two. I don't like how the methanol doesn't cool as well as the denatured/distilled mix. I know the alcohol content doesn't do the cooling, but I do a 50/50 mix, so the only variable here was the type of alcohol used.

    Intercoolers are AWE SMICs and the W/M kit is from VAST
    -Also same settings on meth controller bother runs. 8 Start - 14 Full

    This is VP Racing M1 50% / Distilled H20 50%



    This is Denatured Alcohol 50% / Distilled H20 50%

    Last edited by AudiSportB5S4; 07-06-2009 at 08:14 AM.
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    Veteran Member Four Rings veggiemonster's Avatar
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    Re: IAT Comparison - VP M1 vs. Denatured Alcohol

    so what 1-2 delta versus 5-6 delta?

  3. #3
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Re: IAT Comparison - VP M1 vs. Denatured Alcohol

    im surprised about the difference but its good, because that's what i use.

  4. #4
    Veteran Member Four Rings AudiSportB5S4's Avatar
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    Re: IAT Comparison - VP M1 vs. Denatured Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by sdoherty_tjm View Post
    so what 1-2 delta versus 5-6 delta?
    Yes
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  5. #5
    Veteran Member Four Rings AudiSportB5S4's Avatar
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    Re: IAT Comparison - VP M1 vs. Denatured Alcohol

    Quote Originally Posted by HeveyS4 View Post
    im surprised about the difference but its good, because that's what i use.
    What do you use - denatured?

    I was just trying it out because everyone says that is the best stuff, and it may be for timing advance, however I use this mainly for IAT cooling. I let the ECU do it's timing advance. I like the advantage of running the alcohol because timing corrections are so minimal. With this log I had less than 1 then entire RPM range.

    I have to upload a new revision tonight, so when I get around to it this week I'll do logs with M1 mix in the car, then siphon that out and do a denatured mix and run them on the same graph to show people the difference of timing etc.
    Last edited by AudiSportB5S4; 07-06-2009 at 07:06 AM.
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  6. #6
    Veteran Member Three Rings audiwop's Avatar
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    Re: IAT Comparison - VP M1 vs. Denatured Alcohol

    Mike, what the hell is denatured alcohal? I always thought we were just suppose to run VP-M1? And were do I get some? Also, being out here in cali, do you guys think I would have a negative effect running something different then the meth/water mix, seeing as how our gas is only 91oct....

  7. #7
    Veteran Member Four Rings AudiSportB5S4's Avatar
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    Re: IAT Comparison - VP M1 vs. Denatured Alcohol

    ^ Denatured Alcohol is the shit you can buy from Home Depot, or your local hardware store. That is why I actually like it better, because it's so much easier to find ANYWHERE. Every hardware store sells it. Denatured alcohol actually has a slightly higher octane rating. I remember reading somewhere that it is like 131 octane and VP M1 is more like 125-128.

    But again, the best is the availability of the stuff. You dont need a performance shop for the stuff, just a hardware store :)
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  8. #8
    Veteran Member Three Rings skinnytirez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AudiSportB5S4 View Post
    What do you use - denatured?

    I was just trying it out because everyone says that is the best stuff, and it may be for timing advance, however I use this mainly for IAT cooling. I let the ECU do it's timing advance. I like the advantage of running the alcohol because timing corrections are so minimal. With this log I had less than 1 then entire RPM range.

    I have to upload a new revision tonight, so when I get around to it this week I'll do logs with M1 mix in the car, then siphon that out and do a denatured mix and run them on the same graph to show people the difference of timing etc.
    Did you ever get around to logging the difference between the two?

  9. #9
    Veteran Member Four Rings bigern45's Avatar
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    glad this has been resurrected.

    do tell, please, of the results in your find.
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  10. #10
    Active Member Four Rings aysix's Avatar
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    I'm very interested in this aswell.

  11. #11
    Veteran Member Four Rings bigern45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aysix View Post
    I'm very interested in this aswell.
    i suppose instead of us waiting on mike's test results we COULD do some testing ourselves.. LOL..
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    Active Member Four Rings aysix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigern45 View Post
    i suppose instead of us waiting on mike's test results we COULD do some testing ourselves.. LOL..

    You first.

  13. #13
    Veteran Member Four Rings 97B518TQM's Avatar
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    I just wish the denatured alcohol wasn't so damn expensive.
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    In for the timing info.

    Then off to HD...
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  15. #15
    Veteran Member Four Rings Meow's Avatar
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    Do you measure them out first and then mix them? Because water and methanol combine when mixing so you can not just add one to the other until its double the volume. 1 liter water + 1 liter methanol does not equal 2 liter of fluid.

    You probably already know this, but that would make a huge difference to the mixtures if you are not doing that. Thought I might check with you.


    That is an impressive difference between VP M1 and Denatured Alcohol. Next time try windshield washer fluid from Walmart! lol Lots of people run that in evos/dsms/subarus. Might also be cool if you did 100% alcohol or 100% methanol or 100% water injection just to compare. Id really like to see the differences :)
    RIP Daz, you will be missed.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Three Rings GyzmoS4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meow View Post
    Do you measure them out first and then mix them? Because water and methanol combine when mixing so you can not just add one to the other until its double the volume. 1 liter water + 1 liter methanol does not equal 2 liter of fluid.

    You probably already know this, but that would make a huge difference to the mixtures if you are not doing that. Thought I might check with you.
    Please elaborate! Sounds like I've been mixing incorrectly.
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  17. #17
    Veteran Member Four Rings AudiSportB5S4's Avatar
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    Sorry never updated!

    I haven't looked much further into it as I've just been using VP M1 since shortly after this thread actually.. It's just so easy to get the methanol in a 5 gallon drum and have it in the garage especially since I got a bunch of them down at the track last year for $25 bucks each! Denatured Alcohol is going to run you $15 a gallon, so 3X more expensive.

    After renovating this meth kit a little bit (changing to stainless steel lines) I've noticed that doing a test with this would be pretty difficult. If someone REALLY wants to know the difference, you'd have to in addition to siphoning out Juice A from the container, you'd have to then make sure you disconnect the line at the back of the pump, the feed, to make sure you get all that Juice A out of the lines before throwing in Juice B and testing it conclusively. When I disconnected that feed line to work on the pump, it dripped for 10 minutes, unreal. There is a lot of fluid that gets stuck between the tank and the pump and to drain this is going to be the only way to test.

    The next chance I'll have to do this is when I run through my methanol, which will be a while since I don't DD the car anymore, but now I'm tempted to pick a gallon up and just run the tank dry almost and then run it for a bunch of pulls before logging it. ALSO/Best part it smells 100% sweeter than M1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meow View Post
    Do you measure them out first and then mix them? Because water and methanol combine when mixing so you can not just add one to the other until its double the volume. 1 liter water + 1 liter methanol does not equal 2 liter of fluid.
    I use distilled water, which does mix with methanol (I think, I'm not a scientist though) so I mix them in a measuring cup and then pour in.
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    Veteran Member Three Rings protocol_droid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meow View Post
    Do you measure them out first and then mix them? Because water and methanol combine when mixing so you can not just add one to the other until its double the volume. 1 liter water + 1 liter methanol does not equal 2 liter of fluid.

    You probably already know this, but that would make a huge difference to the mixtures if you are not doing that. Thought I might check with you.


    That is an impressive difference between VP M1 and Denatured Alcohol. Next time try windshield washer fluid from Walmart! lol Lots of people run that in evos/dsms/subarus. Might also be cool if you did 100% alcohol or 100% methanol or 100% water injection just to compare. Id really like to see the differences :)
    1L of any solvent A plus 1L of solvent B = 2L of mixed solvent regardless of the type of liquids being measured. The density of the solution would be the only thing that changes. From a chemist by the way.
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  19. #19
    Veteran Member Three Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by protocol_droid View Post
    1L of any solvent A plus 1L of solvent B = 2L of mixed solvent regardless of the type of liquids being measured. The density of the solution would be the only thing that changes. From a chemist by the way.
    http://chemistry.about.com/od/lectur...iscibility.htm
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  20. #20
    Active Member Four Rings aysix's Avatar
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    Enough with the jargan...what gives the most power?

  21. #21
    Veteran Member Four Rings Meow's Avatar
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    Thank you, hope everyone who mixes their own meth (lol, sounds awful) reads this :)

    ALso the price difference here would be a great thing to share. Premixed meth/water (aka windshield washer fluid) is pretty cheap at stores. Id really love to see a price comparison between store bought premix, VP m1 + distilled water, and Denatured Alcohol + distilled water.
    RIP Daz, you will be missed.

  22. #22
    Veteran Member Three Rings protocol_droid's Avatar
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    That's news to me as I work with solvents on a daily basis with measuring.
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  23. #23
    Veteran Member Four Rings bigern45's Avatar
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    Funny, I just eyeball it when I mix the two; keep an eye on wideband readings and it's right we're it should be at WOT....
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  24. #24
    Stage 3 Forum Advertiser Four Rings 034Motorsport's Avatar
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    I hate to be a debby downer here, but I will stick my constant assertion that IAT graphs are irrelevant when spraying anything on the temperature sensor. Spraying water and air at high velocity over a thermometer, let alone alcohol, will show a much cooler temperature then what the actual combustion chamber experiences. This is why you can go below ambient air temp on your IAT graphs. Your combustion chamber is not seeing below ambient IAT and neither is your intake manifold for that matter, only your sensor is due to evaporation.

    Evaporation skews these measurements considerably. That is not to say that the evaporation isn't also cooling the other components through energy transfer, but you can't compare the delta of a minuscule filament versus a huge aluminum intake manifold. The temp sensor thinks things are cooler then they, dumps on even more timing, the methanol acts as a catalyst of sorts and increase the efficiency of the combustion process, the car makes more power. No arguments there, but IAT graphs taken from the stock IAT sensor are not an accurate representation of how much methanol or alcohol actually cools the intake stream.

    Unfortunately, this is always a bit hard to prove, since measuring takes an instrument and most instruments require direct contact with the stream.

    Quote Originally Posted by protocol_droid View Post
    That's news to me as I work with solvents on a daily basis with measuring.
    That's because the difference is relatively insignificant, and methanol or ethanol can evaporate at a higher rate then the miscibility.

    While I don't go sloshing gallons of methanol around in my home, most of us do not break out scientific beakers and such when we fill our windshield wiper fluid bottle (you really want to keep 100% meth in that?). If you take a 2L bottle and fill it with water, and a 2L bottle and fill it with Methanol, you will still be at basically 50%. The flashpoint and performance difference of being 49/51 water to meth compared to 50/50 is extremely small. Once you start getting into the 60% or more methanol, is when things begin to become dangerous, and exponentially more so as the percentage rises.

    We NEVER recommend anyone use more then 50% methanol in their cars, especially with cheaper systems that use push fittings and such; just don't feel the meth systems are safe enough to use this on the street with such a dangerous fluid. 100% methanol is incredibly flammable, burns with no visible flame, has a low flash point, and all it takes is a small nick in a line to be spraying it all over a red hot exhaust manifold.

    For all intensive purposes, 50/50 mix is made with 50% water, 50% methanol.
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  25. #25
    Veteran Member Four Rings Meow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max@034 View Post

    For all intensive purposes, 50/50 mix is made with 50% water, 50% methanol.
    Totally agree, 50% volume before of water and 50% volume before of methanol, but not 50% of water and then adding methanol until its twice its original volume. It looses a significant amount of volume. IMO that is something that is not hard to do, just measure how much you are pouring out by how much the container lost. Really simple and easy, no beakers required ;)


    Quote Originally Posted by protocol_droid View Post
    That's news to me as I work with solvents on a daily basis with measuring.
    I hope the measuring of them is not important because then I fear for whatever is on the line... This is pretty basic chemistry knowledge.



    Quote Originally Posted by Max@034 View Post
    I hate to be a debby downer here, but I will stick my constant assertion that IAT graphs are irrelevant when spraying anything on the temperature sensor. Spraying water and air at high velocity over a thermometer, let alone alcohol, will show a much cooler temperature then what the actual combustion chamber experiences. This is why you can go below ambient air temp on your IAT graphs. Your combustion chamber is not seeing below ambient IAT and neither is your intake manifold for that matter, only your sensor is due to evaporation.
    Soooo true, totally forgot about that. Sraying fluid at a temp sensor is kind of silly, forgot that the measuring system should be taken into consideration. LOL. Who is to say that is the correct reading? lol, hard to judge! Great point max.
    RIP Daz, you will be missed.

  26. #26
    Veteran Member Four Rings AudiSportB5S4's Avatar
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    Matt,

    I certainly understand your point about spraying alcohol on a temperature sensor, but here's just something that runs through my mind... Take a car without any W/M system on it. Log the IATs. Cool, great, you get a graph. Now, you add W/M to the system and the nozzle is 12" from the TB, another couple inches to the sensor beyond the throttle plate. You don't agree that the slight drop in temperature you see represented in the graph is from actual cooling? I mean, the water and alcohol mix have cooling properties, well the water does, so to see a drop in temperature from the log without W/M is reasonable...

    I agree that it skews it a little, but I don't think it takes the log and makes it a piece of crap.
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  27. #27
    Veteran Member Four Rings Meow's Avatar
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    Still want to know how much it cost for the mix of denatured alcohol vs methanol Mike.. lol
    RIP Daz, you will be missed.

  28. #28
    Veteran Member Four Rings AudiSportB5S4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meow View Post
    Still want to know how much it cost for the mix of denatured alcohol vs methanol Mike.. lol
    Oh, lol.. The thing is that it really depends on where you get your VP products from... If you call up local race shops, (VAST is a dealer of VP) you're going to pay $50-60 for a 5 gallon jug of VP M1. Denatured alcohol is sold @ hardware stores usually for $13-15 a gallon. So, if you're buying the VP at full price from a vendor, it's literally the same thing...

    With that said, if you go to a track day or see the VP truck around, I scored them for $25 bucks straight from their 18 wheeler that they had there for the race weekend at the NHRA Supernationals. So for me, VP M1 is much cheaper to use.
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  29. #29
    Veteran Member Four Rings Meow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AudiSportB5S4 View Post
    Oh, lol.. The thing is that it really depends on where you get your VP products from... If you call up local race shops, (VAST is a dealer of VP) you're going to pay $50-60 for a 5 gallon jug of VP M1. Denatured alcohol is sold @ hardware stores usually for $13-15 a gallon. So, if you're buying the VP at full price from a vendor, it's literally the same thing...

    With that said, if you go to a track day or see the VP truck around, I scored them for $25 bucks straight from their 18 wheeler that they had there for the race weekend at the NHRA Supernationals. So for me, VP M1 is much cheaper to use.
    Seems pretty good.

    • VP M1 Mixed (standard cost, roughly): $5 per gallon of mixed methanol. (plus cost of distilled water)
    • Denatured Alcohol (roughly): $6-7 per gallon mixed. (plus cost of distilled water)
    • VP M1 Mixed (at your cost, roughly) $2.50 a gallon of mixed methanol. (plus cost of distilled water)
    • Premixed Meth/Water: $1.47 for premixed methanol from walmart. http://www.walmart.com/ip/Super-Tech...em+Description


    RIP Daz, you will be missed.

  30. #30
    Active Member Four Rings aysix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aysix View Post
    Enough with the jargan...what gives the most power?
    ^^^^^^

  31. #31
    Veteran Member Four Rings AudiSportB5S4's Avatar
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    I personally don't like the idea of those color injected fluids being injected into the engine. I know plenty of people do it, just how I feel.

    It's hard to say, I run an aggressive timing curve with VP M1 and have no problems. I get 4-5* of correction which isn't really holding the engine back from making more HP. I'll get sons denatured and run it through eventually just to see since its been so long..
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  32. #32
    Veteran Member Three Rings nkbks4's Avatar
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    Walmart mix can cause calcium build up in the injector nozzle.

    When talking "Walmart mix," are u including yellow bottles of HEAT??
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  33. #33
    Active Member One Ring
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    I know of quite a few people in other communities who run higher than 50/50 and have had tremendous success. Is the consensus that if your using a cheap kit, that maybe you should use a 50/50 mix? I only ask because I have wanted to add a meth setup on my car, once I finish piecing together stage 3. I am just not sure why everyone is really going with 50/50.

  34. #34
    Veteran Member Four Rings Meow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nkbks4 View Post
    Walmart mix can cause calcium build up in the injector nozzle.

    When talking "Walmart mix," are u including yellow bottles of HEAT??
    HEAT is expensive as FUCK if you just buy that alone. Ive never heard of calcium build up on the nozzles and have never had issues with them on subarus or dsm's. Ill have to look up and see if this is true or common, got any experience with that? links?
    RIP Daz, you will be missed.

  35. #35
    Veteran Member Three Rings nkbks4's Avatar
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    Heat is only $1.80 a bottle. Its either 2 or 3 bottles added to a gallon of -20 washer fluid equals a 50/50 mix. That is a little cheaper than M1. My buddy uses it and has to clean his nozzles w/ lima away from time to time...

    R people running straight washr fluid? ??
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  36. #36
    Senior Member Three Rings Matador's Avatar
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    I wonder how much you could get a gallon jug of isopropyl alcohol for...

  37. #37
    Veteran Member Three Rings DoGGRoBBer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nkbks4 View Post
    Heat is only $1.80 a bottle. Its either 2 or 3 bottles added to a gallon of -20 washer fluid equals a 50/50 mix. That is a little cheaper than M1. My buddy uses it and has to clean his nozzles w/ lima away from time to time...

    R people running straight washr fluid? ??
    Is your buddy using Distilled water or Tap water in his mix? That can cause his build up of lime.
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    Veteran Member Three Rings nkbks4's Avatar
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    Naples, FL.

    No water, just heat and washer fluid. I've used the same mix and saw similar effectiveness as M1. What do u think is in washer fluid?
    Stg 3 black sedan 395whp/402wtq (sold and will be missed)
    Silver stg 1 avant cleaner upper

  39. #39
    Veteran Member Three Rings DoGGRoBBer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 24 2006
    AZ Member #
    14407
    My Garage
    2000 S4, 2008 Touareg
    Location
    Upstate NY

    I guess the maker of the washer fluid uses hard water. Thats kind of disappointing.
    2000 S4 SSP Tuned Stage III ,K04's,SSAC Downpies, Scorpion Exhaust, RS4 Clutch, APR Bi-Pipes, APR Snub mount, VAST MBC & TCD running 20-22 Psi., APR SMIC, Bosch 710N DV's
    2008 VW Touareg

  40. #40
    Veteran Member Four Rings
    Join Date
    Jul 28 2008
    AZ Member #
    31358
    My Garage
    01.5 S4, 09 Touareg, 88 Cabriolet 16vT
    Location
    Pittsburgh PA

    buy a water softener for your ww fluid! lol

    i'm with max... the evaporation alone will diffuse heat and suggest lower temps on the sensor.
    Latest mod - JHM rebuild kit :swoll:

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