Audi Control Arm Fun

[quantum5]

Ever wondered why your front control arms are so overcomplicated? …https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nZloZQp4bd4

Audi’s commitment to FWD is almost comical, trying to engineer around sending power to the front wheels. My 10 year old RWD C-class with basic McPherson struts handles sooo much better.

[DanielHamilton]

So...you're coming onto an Audi forum to try to convince us Mercedes are better?

It's an interesting way to make friends, for sure.

Audi's multi-link suspension does not excel at durability - I'll be the first to admit that, having just redone my control arm bushings. But to say it doesn't handle well is nuts. An AWD Audi drives like a laser beam.

And coincidentally, the first production car to offer multi-link suspension was...a Mercedes.

[Theiceman]

Ever wondered why your front control arms are so overcomplicated? …https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nZloZQp4bd4

Audi’s commitment to FWD is almost comical, trying to engineer around sending power to the front wheels. My 10 year old RWD C-class with basic McPherson struts handles sooo much better.

Do you even know what you are talking about vast majority or Audis are all wheel drive and will eat your car for lunch. How do i know ? because the guy who sold me my Audi bought a C class ( which is a basic bottom of the line junk Mercedes built for the masses) and can not even remotely keep up in the roundabouts, especially in the wet of if there is road gravel on the round about .. Might want to consider that.
so take away for you is McPherson strut is cheap , that is what they used it , they wanted the cheapest parts on their cheapest car.

[quantum5]

Guys I forget to mention I’m a huge Audi fan. As much as I love Audi’s they do have their faults. Been on the B8 platform for 15 years. But Audi’s are known for their “plowing” handling. Yeah FWD-based would be more accurate. There’s no benefit (besides production costs) to starting with a front heavy and FWD based setup. I think that’s why transverse/MQB/haldex setups (also without multilink) are more fun to drive than the longitudinal layout due to the front heavy nature. Sure you can engineer the heck out of it and get good results, but starting with RWD/AWD is less complicated.

I’ve driven (loaner cars, test drives, etc) a lot of late model Audi’s over the years (B9 A4, Q3, MQB A3, Golf MQB, A6, etc) and my favorite by far was the A3.

But on the Mercedes - Let’s just say I like driving the Merc more (W204 C250), it feels more planted even in straight away freeway driving (it does have a staggered wheel setup so that helps too) but I’d still rather have an Audi. The gen2 EA888 to me seems to have the smoothest 2liter of of all VAG engines I driven. For some reason the B9 always felt rougher to me. And I can’t stand the more recent Mercs, driving, exterior, interior, engines, everything.

Part of my annoyance is that my front control arm bushing are on their way out, and other brands don’t have quite this special engineering. I have high hopes for the B10 just hope a mid-cycle refresh adds some physical buttons instead of screens galore.

[A4Qwattro]

Audi's control arm design isn't complicated. 4 independent control arm links and a steering arm is the fundamental fully independent suspension arm design. "overcomplicated" would have more than 5 arms. Other designs with less than 5 arms (like Mcpherson strut) are basically compromises made to cut cost and result in inferior wheel control. Audi's front suspension design is the same design that you will find in the Le Mans prototypes and Formula 1 racing. You will never see a McPherson strut in a bespoke racing car. The 4 independent arms allows precise design and control of the camber gain, caster, kingpin inclination, bump steer and other suspension dynamics.


The reason you might perceive your Mercedes as handling better has nothing to do with Mcpherson struts. It's more likely due to a more rearward weight bias. The Audi fully independent suspension is still the better suspension design.

[quantum5]

Audi's control arm design isn't complicated. 4 independent control arm links and a steering arm is the fundamental fully independent suspension arm design. "overcomplicated" would have more than 5 arms. Other designs with less than 5 arms (like Mcpherson strut) are basically compromises made to cut cost and result in inferior wheel control. Audi's front suspension design is the same design that you will find in the Le Mans prototypes and Formula 1 racing. You will never see a McPherson strut in a bespoke racing car. The 4 independent arms allows precise design and control of the camber gain, caster, kingpin inclination, bump steer and other suspension dynamics.

The reason you might perceive your Mercedes as handling better has nothing to do with Mcpherson struts. It's more likely due to a more rearward weight bias. The Audi fully independent suspension is still the better suspension design.

I’m not saying Audi multi-link itself is objectively better or worse than McPherson. (McP is cheap, but sometimes it’s good enough depending on the application). I’m saying Audi needed to implement it to overcome fundamental issues with FWD based design and weight distribution just to be on par with RWD and less complex suspensions designs.

Nobody in the automotive world says Audi makes the best handling cars, even within their competition range. That accolade usually goes to BMW M cars (RWD) within the mid range luxury market.

The RWD Audi R8 has double wishbone which tells you something. And many modern 911s use McPherson (think they went fully double wishbone fronts recently), so it really depends on application. There’s no Audi MLB car that could out handle any modern 911 with McPherson.

Hey once I get a refreshed front suspension I’ll probably start enjoying my Audi more. Maybe even front and rear sways, but it’s hard to put any additional money into a 12 year old German car.

[A4Qwattro]

I’m not saying Audi multi-link itself is objectively better or worse than McPherson. (McP is cheap, but sometimes it’s good enough depending on the application). I’m saying Audi needed to implement it to overcome fundamental issues with FWD based design and weight distribution just to be on par with RWD and less complex suspensions designs.

Nobody in the automotive world says Audi makes the best handling cars, even within their competition range. That accolade usually goes to BMW M cars (RWD) within the mid range luxury market.

The RWD Audi R8 has double wishbone which tells you something. And many modern 911s use McPherson (think they went fully double wishbone fronts recently), so it really depends on application. There’s no Audi MLB car that could out handle any modern 911 with McPherson.

Hey once I get a refreshed front suspension I’ll probably start enjoying my Audi more. Maybe even front and rear sways, but it’s hard to put any additional money into a 12 year old German car.

The Audi R8 double wishbone setup is functionally equivalent to audi's multilink suspension. The multi-link just has a virtual pivot point where the double wishbone pivot point is built into the wishbone. They are both NOT Mcpherson strut. That's what should be telling you something.

As I said before, you won't find the Mcpherson strut in the race cars. Porsche didn't use the Mcpherson strut when they made their race cars like the 911 RSR that raced at Le Mans from 2017 on. Porsche even switched the position of the engine and the gearbox and went racing with a mid-engined 911. Don't let the Porsche fanatics find out about that one...

Also,I don't know why you would compare a massed produced MLB platform car to a low volume 911. Mcpherson strut or not, the 911 is hundreds of pounds lighter, more rearward weight distribution, bigger wider more performance-oriented tires, setup and quite frankly it's overall performance comes from a lot of different things that supersede a draw back like the McPherson strut. So of course, it's going to handle better than any MLB car...

[Smac770]

The G35 was phenomenal at steering/handling. Interestingly, it had the same straight track arm + curved guide link as the Audi config, but with a single A arm rather than separate links for the top. Even a similar style wheel bearing housing. Mine was RWD, so inherently better steering feel than a same vehicle with a powered steering axle. But 16 years later, and my car still has very tight wheel play and return to center. Compared to the mess that is the extended family's various Ford and GM vehicles. Hell, even the '06 GS430 is bad.

Now if Audi would just put the axle in front of the engine instead of behind, like the G35 had (so called front-mid)? Would likely be amazing. Having the front diff integrated into the trans is 100% about cost. If that's how Audi wants to insist doing the business, is what it is.

But as is well known, multilink front does a number on those bushings over time. Luckily for me, I don't live in saltville, so the pinch bolt is a few seconds to remove task. Popping the uppers out of the spindle is the harder task.

The VW clone Audis (A3,Q3,TT) are McPherson strut like the VWs they are clones of, ie the MQB platform design. I don't get at all why the transmission on the transverse has the axles behind the engine instead of in front.

Maybe VAG's perspective is by time you need more than what you can get from an RS, you should be buying a Porsche.

[audrobotic]

The G35 was phenomenal at steering/handling. Interestingly, it had the same straight track arm + curved guide link as the Audi config, but with a single A arm rather than separate links for the top. Even a similar style wheel bearing housing. Mine was RWD, so inherently better steering feel than a same vehicle with a powered steering axle. But 16 years later, and my car still has very tight wheel play and return to center. Compared to the mess that is the extended family's various Ford and GM vehicles. Hell, even the '06 GS430 is bad.

Now if Audi would just put the axle in front of the engine instead of behind, like the G35 had (so called front-mid)? Would likely be amazing. Having the front diff integrated into the trans is 100% about cost. If that's how Audi wants to insist doing the business, is what it is.

But as is well known, multilink front does a number on those bushings over time. Luckily for me, I don't live in saltville, so the pinch bolt is a few seconds to remove task. Popping the uppers out of the spindle is the harder task.

The VW clone Audis (A3,Q3,TT) are McPherson strut like the VWs they are clones of, ie the MQB platform design. I don't get at all why the transmission on the transverse has the axles behind the engine instead of in front.

Maybe VAG's perspective is by time you need more than what you can get from an RS, you should be buying a Porsche.

Aw yes..the early-aughts G35 with that wonderful raucous VQ V6. I almost bought a used one years ago. Probably impossible to find a decent one these days.

[A4Qwattro]

Aw yes..the early-aughts G35 with that wonderful raucous VQ V6. I almost bought a used one years ago. Probably impossible to find a decent one these days.

It's a popular theft target too.