No start conundrum

[Audini2002]

Hello, I had posted a starter problem earlier in the wrong thread. I have been fighting with my 02 S6 for the last couple weeks since the transmission swap was done. I have been trying to get it to crank it finally cranks but now it won’t run it seems to be misfiring but I’m not sure. It has an 01E with a 2.7t clutch n flywheel setup which the shop I had it at told me would work. I have tried just about everything I can to get it to start. It has spark not sure if it’s in time or not the fuel is getting in there I can smell it. Currently the codes on the ecm are P1602 P1570 P0321 intermittent and P1517. The ESS sensor appears to be working fine, I have read several build lists for the 01E swap and everyone does it differently but there’s runs at the end of it to which mine does not.

[Avantly]

If P1517 is active it sounds like you may need to check your main relay/fuse and do some circuit diagnosis if needed, though I have seen this code in cars that start just fine. Do you have VCDS? If so, when was the P0321 set last? The ESS will appear to be working fine... Except when it's not. I've had 4.2's with bad ESS and no start show no codes whatsoever, the problem began with random/intermittent engine stall/no restart at hot, later became a problem when warm, after which it quickly turned into a no start at any temperature condition. It seemed that the sensor must have failed internally but not in a way that caused ECM diagnostics to set a code. If you have spark and fuel then it probably isn't the ESS but always good to keep a spare one around if you haven't replaced it yet.

[Audini2002]

I have VCDS Lite, I noticed the P1517 after having very low battery voltage so I had replaced the battery then it threw and over charge code or whatever. I have gotten the crank sensor out I have tested pins 1&3 and got 880 ohms and the other pins don’t show anything for resistance. I have the battery unhooked as of right now to see if I can get the codes to clear. Right now the key does not start the car it is in the on postion and I tapped the solenoid to a wire to the battery to send 12v to the exciter. It has spark and fuel I can smell it but the timing is almost like it’s 180° out or something because it just coughs into the intake. I tried calling a local shop to me and they said they can’t touch it due to the P1517.

[Audini2002]

I should mention the tachometer does move the needle sometimes other times it sits there flat.

- - - Updated - - -

I should mention the tachometer sometimes moves up but generally sits at 0

[ShelbyM3]

How did the car run before the swap? Did you pay someone to swap it? Is it possible a wire loom is pinched in the bell housing?


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[Audini2002]

Update. I put a new ESS in it and it still will not run, I’m at a complete loss the next thing I have to do is probably buy the cable to properly code the ECM to manual.

[Audini2002]

I did check that when I was trying to verify everything to narrow it done. The harness is not pinched everything I can visibly see is good, the crank sensor tests good but I replaced it just as an incase. I had almost gotten it started but it just died, it blew out some almost halfway burnt fuel vapor like grey out of the exhaust so it has fuel the spark is good I have tested it several times. The other thing I noticed is the climate control does not work will not turn on.

[Calif_Kid]

Did the car ever run after the swap? If not, then if it has ICMs on top of the airbox, then maybe they are reversed so you would see spark, but the spark would not be at the right time. Also, just wondering - what flywheel does it have? I think I've read posts about issues with the flywheel, but most of those threads were probably for the 2.7T, but I did find thread https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...6+6-speed+swap with some interesting info. I've read that the ECT (engine coolant temp sensor) can cause starting problems, but I'm not sure if you could check its reading with VCDS Lite.

I went to the Ross-Tech site to see what those codes mean, and links to them are below. It looks like P1570 is engine start is blocked by the immobilizer, but on my car (2001 A6 2.7T 6-speed), I have two ECUs - a tuned one plus a stock one that I could swap in if needed, and the stock ECU worked fine initially, but recently when I swapped the stock ECU in, the car would start and run for a few seconds before automatically shutting off, so I'm thinking that your car should start and run for a few seconds. Hopefully it will be an easy fix... - Jim

17978/P1570/005488 - Engine Start Blocked by Immobilizer
http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index...8/P1570/005488


16705/P0321/000801 - Engine Speed Sensor (G28): Implausible Signal
http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index...5/P0321/000801

P1602 is just Power Supply B+ Terminal 30: Voltage too Low, so probably just means that the battery was disconnected, so the alarm should clear.
http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index...0/P1602/005634

17925/P1517/005399: Power Supply Relay for ECU (J271 or J363): Electrical Malfunction
http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/17925/P1517

[Audini2002]

From what I can see the ICM is not near the air box I’ll see if I can find it on Mitchell somewhere for a diagram. I will try cold starting (grounding on the system) the car to try and clear the immobilizer code, I have to bypass the key to get it to start which is sketchy and sucks. I also just replaced the key fob battery because of the immobilizer code. I need to check the temp sensor but it’s never been a problem. I have cleared the codes once and nothing comes back besides TCU P1626 which I’ve been told should not prevent it from starting. I have replaced the main relay already number 4 on the relay panel. I feel like I missed something but I can edit it.

[Audini2002]

It has not ran post swap

[Avantly]

Can't you clear the codes with VCDS Lite? It's important to know which codes are current and which are history... That may very well help you narrow it down.

[Audini2002]

I have cleared the codes. All I have left are TCU codes and the climate control codes in the cluster.

[Audini2002]

Update, I have tested for fuel pump now it is getting 3.5 volts at key on and drops when I crank it over without the key in start. I have replaced the relay 2 times now and it’s the same deal it ohms out at 41.2 on my multi meter. I can bypass the relay with a piece of wire in the terminals and it turns the pump on and I can hear it. The key still will not start the car it only will turn it to the on position. I can turn it to start and the battery light kicks off and the stereo turns off to send the power there but it does nothing, I still have a bypass wire to just excite it manually but it will not start. I cannot read with VCDS light what the injector is pulsing at or any data like that so I’m in the dark with it till my cable shows up. My next plan is to reprogram the PCM to 60712 so it is in manual mode to bypass the TCU problem since it is a 6 speed swap. The shop I had do it said that it should start even if the PCM is not programmed. The car has not ran for 3 months and I figured it would have some sort of issue post swap.

[Calif_Kid]

With all of the voltage issues, have you checked the engine grounds? I think that there is one ground wire near the alternator at the front right, and another under the coolant expansion tank. It also wouldn't hurt to check the pos and neg cable connectors at the battery, plus from the neg cable to the chassis.

- Jim

[Audini2002]

I have verified the grounds, I have the neutral safety switch jumped now and it cranks with the key! It still will not run I cannot hear the fuel pump priming but when cranking with the measure block no.2 I’m getting 0.86 g/s. 1.04 inj on time and 66.9 load at 180rpm for cranking. The timing is at 10.5° measuring block 3.

[royrogers]

did you ever try using a bit of starting fluid spray? don't overdo it with it, but it might prove to you that it's not spark, i've had odd things happen on other cars where i really thought fuel was fine but wasn't.

maybe someone else can chime in, on my jeep cherokee, the immobilizer would allow the car to start and then it would die within 2 seconds, would be interesting to know if the audi does the same thing or is it 100% no start if immobilizer is triggered.

rr

[Avantly]

did you ever try using a bit of starting fluid spray? don't overdo it with it, but it might prove to you that it's not spark, i've had odd things happen on other cars where i really thought fuel was fine but wasn't.

maybe someone else can chime in, on my jeep cherokee, the immobilizer would allow the car to start and then it would die within 2 seconds, would be interesting to know if the audi does the same thing or is it 100% no start if immobilizer is triggered.

rr

Never, ever, ever, EVER, EVER, EVER use ether on a modern engine!

Ever!

EVER!!!

I'm not even going to explain why, if you really want to see the potential damage just read about it online.

[Calif_Kid]

maybe someone else can chime in, on my jeep cherokee, the immobilizer would allow the car to start and then it would die within 2 seconds, would be interesting to know if the audi does the same thing or is it 100% no start if immobilizer is triggered.

rr

Up in post #8, I mentioned that I have two ECUs - a tuned one plus a stock one that I could swap in if needed, and the stock ECU worked fine initially, but recently when I swapped the stock ECU in, the car would start and run for a few seconds before automatically shutting off, so I believe that the car should start and run for a few seconds before the immobilizer will shut off the engine. I've read that some tuners can also disable the immobilizer.

- Jim

[royrogers]

re the ether, have used it many times to start engines when they were frozen due to a bad block heater or people forgot to plug in the car or we'd be ice fishing and it got really cold. i guess if you spray too much of it maybe it could cause a problem but i've never seen it happen. i agree that you gotta be careful though, and looking it up as Avantly suggested, there does seem to be some horror stories about using it.

we used to also use propane camping stoves under the oil pans of cars when the oil was frozen and there was no way to turn over the engine. man those were cold days.

rr

[SteveKen]

Who did the manual swap? If you paid someone to do this, then this should be their responsibility.

Off hand, the symptoms sound like the reluctor ring and crank position sensor are not in the right orientation or not in the right position where you get a proper signal.

The only surefire way to see if the CPS is working properly is to use an oscilloscope.

What flywheel was used? OEM 2.7T DMFW or some aftermarket one? The OEM flywheel needs to be machined to clear the rear main seal housing or it will not crank over easily if at all and damage the RMS housing in the process. If you kept the plug in the crank flange and the spacer on the crank, then this is a problem.

Was the 2.7T spacer ring between engine and transmission used?

Is the CPS in the right position, as there are two holes to choose from?

[Avantly]

re the ether, have used it many times to start engines when they were frozen due to a bad block heater or people forgot to plug in the car or we'd be ice fishing and it got really cold. i guess if you spray too much of it maybe it could cause a problem but i've never seen it happen. i agree that you gotta be careful though, and looking it up as Avantly suggested, there does seem to be some horror stories about using it.

we used to also use propane camping stoves under the oil pans of cars when the oil was frozen and there was no way to turn over the engine. man those were cold days.

rr

These cars have plastic parts on the intake, as most have had for 2 decades now. You have a high chance that everything will be fine - Let's say 98% chance. And you have a small chance (let's say 2%) that you will explode the intake and end up with plastic shrapnel everywhere (hopefully not in your eyeballs) and engine damage that you don't want to deal with. You probably won't blow holes in a piston like in a diesel but overall it's just very risky and I wouldn't advise anyone to do it. If I were desperate I'd say dump a little fuel in the main vacuum line into the plenum, lol.

[Avantly]

Up in post #8, I mentioned that I have two ECUs - a tuned one plus a stock one that I could swap in if needed, and the stock ECU worked fine initially, but recently when I swapped the stock ECU in, the car would start and run for a few seconds before automatically shutting off, so I believe that the car should start and run for a few seconds before the immobilizer will shut off the engine. I've read that some tuners can also disable the immobilizer.

- Jim

Start and immediate shutoff sounds like immo. Immo is very easy to delete on C5. Are you trying to start this car with the tuned ECU as well?

[royrogers]

avantly, thanks for explaining... btw an old hutterite gentleman once taught me that ether is the best thing to use to get rid of oil stains in jeans etc.

happy easter guys.

rr

[Avantly]

Interesting! I have never tried using it for cleaning. I just always try to warn people about the potential for explosion issues in these newer vehicles. You can start an old solid metal gas engine all day long with the stuff without consequence, especially the old carburated engines, but there are way too many pictures of burst plastic intake manifolds and other mayhem on newer cars... Plastic shrapnel does not sound like fun :-)
Happy Easter!

[SteveKen]

This thread ended up being a discussion on using ether but I'm curious if there is any update on the 'no start conundrum'?

[jsmorris]

...I have the neutral safety switch jumped now...

How is this performed? I have an issue where I have to turn key to accessory, press brake, shift to neutral, shift to park, then I can turn the key and it will start.

Inserting the key and attempting to start in park without this procedure will result in nothing as I turn the key to the start position. Full instrument panel response, but no starter action. 2003 RS6 that I purchased yesterday and I am currently driving 1000 miles home across the country.

[jsmorris]

Update: I can press brake, turn key to start position (no response) and then pull back on the shifter handle (still in park) and the starter will go. Neutral safety switch needs work. At least I know how to start it to get it home but still would like advice on adjustment or jumping NSS it to disable.