A3 vs. A4

**4-tified** · 10-12-2006 12:03 PM

My new A4 is in the shop getting a bulb ignitor replaced under warranty, and the tech will try to find and fix why my driver side rear window will not close fully and many times acts as if something is in the way when closing.

Meanwhile they gave me a brand new '07 A3 2.0T
S-line with the DSG trans.
First thing I notice is that my 2.0T engine HATES to start when it's cold and takes 2 start attempts to actually start. A previous loaner A4 and the A3 2.0T start strong and positive compared to mine.

The drivers and overall front space is a bit narrower than the A4, but overall very comfy and roomy.
The A3's "sport" seats are better in comfort and lateral support than my A4. The adjustments on my A4 are greater due to the powered adjust functions whereas the A3 sport seats are manual adjust. Still, the A3 sport seats is overall a better seat as it has better bolstering and a slightly deeper seat. It's still not as nice as BMW's sport seats, but better than the basic A4 seat.
However, the A3 seats need to sit a bit lower or the steering wheel needs to be able to adjust slightly higher. I'm 6-1" and the top of the steering wheel is just a tad still to low in it's highest position for viewing the guages.

Overall interior design and material execution is quite nice for a car just slightly lower in price. Very Audi like interior with nice materials use and great ergonoic design. My A4 has the multi-color info display so it's nicer than the A3's red only display, but both function the same. The A3 glove box is about half as small as the A4 but still functional.

The standard audio system sounds a bit better than my A4's. The volume is cleaner while being louder and there is MUCH less compression when turned up.
Overall, the bass sounds tighter and punchier compared to the A4's more muffled sub bass.

I LOVE the DSG. On my drive in to work I took some side streets to test and it works flawlessly. The biggest problem with it is on take off. If feels much like the automatic in that there is slight delay from throttle application to when the car actually starts moving. It feels more to do with the electronic throttle function more than anything else though.
It's just a slight delay. With my manual I give it throttle and I control the clutch so I "feel" more connected to when my A4 actually moves.
I've driven A3's with the manual and it feels just like the A4. If you hold the brake while giving throttle the DSG will only go to a bit under 2000 rpm no higher. It is no faster or better than just standing on the throttle when you want to take off fast.
No launch control there.
The DSG is awesome and super fast. The BEST part is the better than a pro driver matched rev downshifts. They always make me smile at how perfect and smooth they are.

From a standing start and full throttle the front wheels will chrip and spin. It's FWD afterall and the A3 is lighter than our A4 with pretty much the same 2.0T engine. In the A3, however, at 70mph highway speed, if you go WFO the DSG kicks down and you are pushed back in your seat. That's the beauty of lighter weight and less driveline drag. The A3 "feels" faster at speed and passing. I'm sure it probably is too.

The other great apsect to DSG over the standard tiptronic automatic is that in "D" mode the idle is as smooth as the A4 with manual. No steering wheel or seat or cabin vibes like there is in the A4 2.0T with automatic. Of course that's because the DSG is a real manual with real clutches that do not engage when at a stop and idling, compared to the slushbox automatic that allows the engine vibes to come through.

The more obvious drawback in the A3 compared to our A4 is the steering accuracy and feel.
The A3 feels a bit disconnected at times as the steering is a bit more vague as to what it's doing and it's not as linear or smooth as the A4's rack.
There is a bit more mid corner correction need in the A3 compared to the A4. The A4 feels a bit less aritifical than the A3 though both need a stiffer and more linear overall feel. However, I've found that is more subjective as a lot of A4 owners like the variable assist in the A4. Me, I don't.

The A3 is a pretty sweet car overall and if someone had a need for the hatch and didn't need the AWD offered in the A4 with the 2.0T, they would get better MPG a better power to weight ratio and still have all the fine Audi interior style and build for a bit less doughnuts.

**Re5pectThe_Cuz** · 10-12-2006 12:14 PM

nice write up. i love my a3. its def a sleeper. no one expects it to do what it does. quicker than most think

**kak39** · 10-12-2006 12:16 PM

DSG = the manual for girls to drive.

**evoic** · 10-12-2006 12:25 PM

Originally posted by kak39
DSG = the manual for girls to drive.

DSG = Audi's perfection of a technology.
Male OR female.

The appeal of a manual vs. automatic for SOME is that they can get through the gears quicker than the automatic will let them and they control the shift points.

With DSG, there is no quicker shift. Period.

**vwong** · 10-12-2006 12:33 PM

Originally posted by evoic
With DSG, there is no quicker shift. Period.

It's still missing the clutch pedal.

**lucifer** · 10-12-2006 12:46 PM

the dsg is pretty impressive as far a speed of shift is concerned...there is just something about having a real manual...you feel like your actually driving...dsg is better than auto but still not the same

**element256** · 10-12-2006 12:53 PM

blehk auto is for girls....period

**kak39** · 10-12-2006 01:04 PM

Maybe...but read how he describes the launch. I've driven the DSG and it acts exactly like an auto from 0 / roll.

auto and DSG are for girls....period. The lazy man's MT is what I call it. There will always be something about having full control over your car that will always prevail over computer/auto shifting.

**INTEGRATION** · 10-12-2006 01:07 PM

There's still methods of using clutch engagement techniques under hard/racing driving conditions. With a clutck kick you could alter the car's direction of travel (like forcing a line change) in a turn by inducing some oversteer. Although an extremely fast car like in a LeMans, F1, or DTM you most likely wouldn't not need to use refer to such techniques. So take into consideration that Audi developed DSG with the intent of using it in racecars and decided that their consumer market there are those specific customers that would like to have a race-bred LeMans-type transmission in their everyday car for the sheer passion of driving enjoyment.

**A4_cabrio** · 10-12-2006 01:46 PM

If I had a choice I'd get the clutchless F430 tranny in a heartbeat.

Let's be honest here. The future belongs to the clutchless transmissions.

I've learned on a manual and if I had a choice I'd always go with one with the aforementioned exception.

turbocharged 4 cyl cars will always behave better with a manual. It's all in revving the engine a little bit before releasing the clutch.

**Re5pectThe_Cuz** · 10-12-2006 02:19 PM

ok you can say DSG is for women chicks or for pu$$ies. i have had both manual auto and the DSG. There is nothing compared to the FEELING you get with a manual. it is a lot of fun to feel the power of your car in your hand. however, some of us live in cities with heavy loads of traffic. I did have a stick in LA traffic and of course its annoying, but i lived through it. the DSG is simply amazing. its so fast and precise and lots of fun in the twisties. not the same feel but it truly is impressive. the DSG is still considered a manual, just as the BMW SMG II is considered one. same basics just much faster. i promise its almost impossible to shift as fast DSG can

**Andrew A4** · 10-12-2006 02:26 PM

While i think the technology in the DSG kicks butt..... the technology will never find itself in my new A4.

I just don't like the feel of shifting without a clutch.

**jsamans** · 10-12-2006 02:55 PM

Definitely a manual transmission is a more visceral and connected driving experience. But it is slower than DSG and a lot less convenient.

I never understand all the "auto trannies are for girls" type talk -- what, do you have a small pee pee and need to compensate by showing everyone how manly you are because you drive a stick shift? Grow up!

P.S. the column shift 3 speed manual in my pickup truck owns you all :p

**enigma1406** · 10-12-2006 04:22 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmMNRQ1GJ3o

i like

**phillyquattro** · 10-12-2006 04:41 PM

I never understand all the "auto trannies are for girls" type talk -- what, do you have a small pee pee and need to compensate by showing everyone how manly you are because you drive a stick shift? Grow up!

Couldn't have said it better myself. According to this logic the majority of you are saying that a Ferrari Enzo (among hundreds of other performance cars) would be a girls car because it has paddle shifters. That's just dumb.

**Re5pectThe_Cuz** · 10-12-2006 04:45 PM

i guess the Bugatti Veyron isnt a true sports car either...or the F430, or Mclaren SLR...or any other supercars

**phillyquattro** · 10-12-2006 04:50 PM

Yea those cars are definitely for pussies.

**Light Silver A4** · 10-12-2006 05:07 PM

Some supercars like the ones stated above do use DSG type trannies, some do not. Carrera GT, Z06 Viper, 911 Turbo/GT2/GT3 and so on.

If I was going to shell out 100k+ for a car, I would def be shifting myself. But something can be said for the perfectly rev matched downshifts of an enzo.......mmmmmmmmmmmm.

The Auto/DSG/Manual debate is so stupid, I agree. That is why they make them all, so you can choose. The DSG type will surely replace the standard Auto, so then it will be between DSG and manual.

All my cars will be manual, but if I have to get an Auto, I would def want it to be DSG type. Might as well get the best of both worlds if you have to.

**CaRJoE0220** · 10-12-2006 05:14 PM

haha

**defunkt** · 10-12-2006 11:11 PM

DSG is impressive, no doubt, but in the vid, just look at the guys feet, all he does is stomp on the gas. The launch control is a nice feature, and VAG should be commended for DSG being such an advancement on automatic technology.

Its kinda like cameras, some people are totally happy with a point and shoot, which get the job done and take great pics, and others really get into it and get a manual SLR, it has full control and you can use techniques that arent attainable with a point and shoot.

I say long live sport! (whatever that means to YOU!)

**Bob58** · 10-13-2006 05:31 AM

Originally posted by defunkt

Its kinda like cameras, some people are totally happy with a point and shoot, which get the job done and take great pics, and others really get into it and get a manual SLR, it has full control and you can use techniques that arent attainable with a point and shoot.

I understand what you're saying here, but using the same analogy, the reality is, with DSG....

That "point and shoot" camera takes FAR superior pictures to the fully manual SLR 99% of the time, regardless of skill.

If that were the case, the only folks left using an SLR would be guys who just feel the need (or want) to do it all themselves, regardless of the results.

They either:

A) Accept the fact that the technology is superior but prefer the "feeling of control" regardless of the result.

or

B) They, like kak, fool themselves into believing that their "superior skill" overcompensates for the vastly superior technology.

I agree that the visceral feel of using the clutch and "rowing your own" feels more sporty and fun. That can be worth alot to folks.

But anyone that claims that they can, or even dreams about being able to, shift faster or smoother than the DSG is definitely in category B.

**kak39** · 10-13-2006 06:15 AM

ha i really shouldn't have made my new name on here kak...

I just joke about being superior to DSG to get the DSG freaks pissed. It's funny to see them get all worked up on their supercars and DSG.

My strongest reasons for clutch (personally)
-------------------------------------------------------
- No one can drive my car in the family!! So, my mom who has totaled 2 cars and sister who has 5 dents in her company car can never call me and say "hey kak!! can I borrow your car?" Saying no is not an option with these people...i've had my car stolen...well borrowed by my sister. Try to get it out of first gear now!!

- 2nd it's vastly superior to DSG. j/k.

On a side note. What would be the cost differences in fixing/replacing a DSG trans / Manual?

And I guess we are the test dummies for longevity of this transmission.

**enigma1406** · 10-13-2006 06:34 AM

Originally posted by kak39
- No one can drive my car in the family!! So, my mom who has totaled 2 cars and sister who has 5 dents in her company car can never call me and say "hey kak!! can I borrow your car?" Saying no is not an option with these people...i've had my car stolen...well borrowed by my sister. Try to get it out of first gear now!!

Best reason!

**nadroj81** · 10-13-2006 06:46 AM

if it had launch control it would be a lot better. Such as euro bmw and audi models i believe.

**INTEGRATION** · 10-13-2006 06:50 AM

Originally posted by Bob58
I understand what you're saying here, but using the same analogy, the reality is, with DSG....

That "point and shoot" camera takes FAR superior pictures to the fully manual SLR 99% of the time, regardless of skill.

If that were the case, the only folks left using an SLR would be guys who just feel the need (or want) to do it all themselves, regardless of the results.

They either:

A) Accept the fact that the technology is superior but prefer the "feeling of control" regardless of the result.

or

B) They, like kak, fool themselves into believing that their "superior skill" overcompensates for the vastly superior technology.

I agree that the visceral feel of using the clutch and "rowing your own" feels more sporty and fun. That can be worth alot to folks.

But anyone that claims that they can, or even dreams about being able to, shift faster or smoother than the DSG is definitely in category B.

What about the "C" category of people that have the skill and want to implement the latest technology in addition to their highly honed-in skills?

There's also a lot of posts on this thread of people that supportbash-on DSG without even knowing how it works! It still utilizes a clutch! It's just not a clutch that's accessable to you by your left foot lol.

**defunkt** · 10-13-2006 12:00 PM

Originally posted by Bob58
That "point and shoot" camera takes FAR superior pictures to the fully manual SLR 99% of the time, regardless of skill.

I think you've accurately summed up the dispute: :)

DSG is awesome, regardless of skill.

I consider myself a technologically foward minded individual, always seeking innovations that help us do things better, faster, etc. At some point the technology's prowess surpasses our own, which DSG has done for clutches. This comes at the expense of the skill required in motorsports. While DSG moves one step closer towards perfection, it moves one step away from our own input and truely being the "brain" of the engine.

**tonggi** · 10-13-2006 12:22 PM

I went to the track with a bunch of Audi guys, forgot all of their names but they all had A3s and they ran horrible in the quarter mile. Chipped with exhaust they ran low 15s and 16s.

Dunno if it was driving or not.

But some kid in a silver B7 chipped with APR did 13.9.

Im so confused

**4-tified** · 10-13-2006 12:38 PM

Manual transmissions became common due to a lack of a better method, and because "automatic" technology was too expensive (complex) to manufacturer.

It's funny how it has become the "preferred" enthusiast trans choice as it doesnt' come from better engineering or from a better method of changing gears, but from the best method at the time that was also cost effective.

I like manual trannys over typical slushbox automatics. I've been driving for a bit over 25 years and for me the manual trans is simply more fun.
Is it "better" per se? Depends on what "better" means really.
If changing gears as quickly as possible is better then the DSG wins there. If changing gears smoothy is better then many modern slushbox automatics, Mercedes comes to mind, win there.
If applying engine power to the wheels while keeping the engine in it's best rev band to achieve the best MPG and efficiency, then the CVT seems the better choice.

Overeall it really depends on the need and want of the driver as to what is the better or best trans.
Gender has nothing to do with it. There are plenty of women who love manuals and plenty of men who prefer an automatic trans.

It seems most often a manual trans is considered "better" by the enthusiast crowd mainly because we enjoy the feel of controlling the clutch and making the shift as smoothly as possible. We also enjoy the added challenge of choosing the right gear for the turn while executing the best rev matched downshift for the turn without upsetting the chassis to get the smoothest and fastest turn accomplised.
Yes, it's more fun, but is it really "better"?
Again, it depends on your criteria.

Here's one aspect that many enthusiasts don't think about. I rarely see it mentioned.
Chassis/vehicle control is more important than trans choice. Every mechanical component choice made is related to how it will translate into vehicle control.
Thus, trans choice is part of vehicle control. Trans type is not the end all of whether a car is good or bad or if the driver is good or bad.
Ok, that's kind of common sense, but it's important to understand.

So, when entering a turn many manual drivers feel that gear selection is better achieved by the driver through the manual trans with clutch, throttle, and gear lever control. We adjust our entry speed for the turn, select the proper gear, and make sure we do it correctly and at the correct time so that we do not upset the chassis. Thus, we select the gear before we enter the turn so that power is ready to apply and the suspension is not unsettled by trying to change gears in the middle of a turn.
Many times automatic transmissions don't respond this way as they will hold a higher gear into the turn and won't shift down until we apply hard throttle to power out of the turn. In the worst case the trans changes gears in the middle of the turn upsetting the chassis causing more steering correction or the need to apply the brakes at the wrong time.
That can make driving an auto trans car feel less connected and thus less sporting overall.

Also, consider that handling is mostly controlled by the driver via the steering. To get the car into and out of the turn as smooth and thus as fast as possible requires good steering wheel control.
More often than not that requires both hands on the wheel for ideal/best control.

Yet, I see so many "enthusiast" drivers, who drive manual trans cars, that actually keep their shift hand on the gear lever while driving. The point of the manual trans shift lever is to shift the gear, not to rest your hand and/or to look cool doing it. You move your hand off the wheel and make the shift as quick as possible and get back to the wheel as quick as possible to keep proper control.

So, the one aspect of driving related to handling is trans choice and function along with how the driver actually performs that function.
What's best or better? It depends of course.
Yet, one has to consider the technological advances in trans technology the actually help the enthusiast and casual driver to better control their vehicles.

The DSG, SMG, F1 type of manual-auto transmission actually helps the driver to have greater control over his car. How? Because it allows the driver to keep his hands on the steering while navigating the turns.
The manual automatic IS a real manual type trans in that it uses a hard mechanical connection from the engine to the wheels via a clutch or clutches.
This type of transmission also moves the gear selection automatically. With modern computer controls the shift is performed faster than a pro driver, engine power stays more direct with the wheels as the clutch is disengaged for much less time, and downshifts are performed with surgical precision that doesn't require the drivers attention for clutching, braking, and throttle bliping for proper downshifts that could upset the chassis and handling if not down properly or smoothly.
Thus, the driver actually concentrates more on the overall handling and can thus control the steering, braking, and gear selection faster, smoother, and with much less wasted movement.

Hmmm...in terms of racing and track conrol the DSG type transmission is...well...better.

The biggest drawback is the occaisional confusion of the DSG if the driver wanted a certain gear but fumbled the paddles or lever, and thus the trans computer had to rethink and catch up. Still, it recovers faster than a clutched manual driver messing up an actual manual shift. Also, these types of trans all need some type of "launch control", and I'd like to see variable rpm selection by the driver or that launch control. That would add more "sport" to it and more involvement.
But, that's just a matter of technology advancing and newer software. The VW GTI has had LC in the Euro market from day 1. In the US for 2007 the GTI also gets LC. The A3 doesn't and that's a shame.

Overall, the DSG type transmissions are pretty cool and even make a traditional manual trans driver, like me, really consider getting one.
That's my view.