MMI Oil Level Indicator

[silver_tt]

Much ado about an oil change. I understand extractors at a dealership or indy are pneumatic. If using the "MMI" for oil level measurement wasn't accurate it would say such in erWin and it wouldn't be possible to change the oil in many cars for the last 20 years. Every modern Porsche 911 does not have a dipstick tube. This is because you don't need one. Even "online" mechanics like me that wasted all their time in university instead of doing oil changes know that.....

Audi put a dipstick tube on these cars for the same reason all OEMS have made similar changes like mounting the oil filter on the top. It reduces the amount of time required to do an oil change and they can publish lower maintenance costs, etc.

[A4Qwattro]

Much ado about an oil change. I understand extractors at a dealership or indy are pneumatic. If using the "MMI" for oil level measurement wasn't accurate it would say such in erWin and it wouldn't be possible to change the oil in many cars for the last 20 years. Every modern Porsche 911 does not have a dipstick tube. This is because you don't need one. Even "online" mechanics like me that wasted all their time in university instead of doing oil changes know that.....

Audi put a dipstick tube on these cars for the same reason all OEMS have made similar changes like mounting the oil filter on the top. It reduces the amount of time required to do an oil change and they can publish lower maintenance costs, etc.

No one is saying the MMI level isn't accurate. The technology behind the reading is actually well proven and decades old. It's simple time of flight analysis. Piezoelectric emits sound wave and sensor measures the time it takes for the sound wave to go up, reflect off the top surface of the oil, and come back down. Speed of the sound in the oil is known (or approximate...) so you can back out the oil height in mm (which is actually what you can pull from the measuring blocks).


but think about the mechanics of this at a dealer. The guy changing the oil has oil on his hands. Do you want him fussing about inside the interior of the car? Of course not. It's clunky and annoying. It's much faster and cleaner to stay outside of the car and check the dipstick in that kind of situation. A dealer tech should not have to physically get inside the vehicle to do an oil change and the customer probably prefers that as well. We all know how it is when customer claims they found a new scratch in their car.

[SNice]

This has become quite a discussion.
For the record - I have an ECS physical dipstick that lives in my trunk. I only use it to check the oil when refilling after an oil change. I regularly “check” the oil from the cabin using the mmi. My dipstick and Mmi readings are always in alignment. They have never not agreed with each other. I also never let the level get below the 1/2 mark. I keep it full but I do not have a real oil drinker.

I’m not sure if anyone has brought this up but one of the reasons I do not leave an aftermarket dipstick in is because they do not seal the dipstick tube well. They fit but do not seal properly and the orings are either too large or too small. A leak in this area messes with the crankcase vacuum and pcv operation and results in oil leaks, rough running, etc, etc, etc. Might hold in vacuum but sometimes the crankcase goes into a brief positive pressure. I wouldn’t trust my physical dipstick to stay seated during spirited driving.

Audi probably got rid of the dipstick because they knew people would constantly be checking it and placing it in wrong leading to worse problems. The solution was the handy little twist lock cap that fits into the dipstick tube. It’s a snug fit and stays in place under pressure and vacuum - regardless of if you pcv is working ( another conversation/thread) I’m sure there are many other reasons but I’m just saying… Everything isn’t about convenience and access for the end user with these cars - maybe in the cabin but not under the hood!

[WHT13AR]

SNice you make a good point on the vacuum issue. I drive my car in the spirited fashion you speak of and have not had any weirdness but it only takes time. I dont use the ECS part to check the level anyway as I mentioned, it doesnt work as intended. I use the graduated tool with the adjustable levels. So, I will be getting another standard plug and hanging the ECS part on the wall of shame.

[RockJGC]

No one is saying the MMI level isn't accurate. The technology behind the reading is actually well proven and decades old. It's simple time of flight analysis. Piezoelectric emits sound wave and sensor measures the time it takes for the sound wave to go up, reflect off the top surface of the oil, and come back down. Speed of the sound in the oil is known (or approximate...) so you can back out the oil height in mm (which is actually what you can pull from the measuring blocks).


but think about the mechanics of this at a dealer. The guy changing the oil has oil on his hands. Do you want him fussing about inside the interior of the car? Of course not. It's clunky and annoying. It's much faster and cleaner to stay outside of the car and check the dipstick in that kind of situation. A dealer tech should not have to physically get inside the vehicle to do an oil change and the customer probably prefers that as well. We all know how it is when customer claims they found a new scratch in their car.

Exactly. I've actually stated myself that my MMI oil level readout seems to be dead accurate from my own testing. So I'm all for it, not against it at all. I was just trying to explain a couple of things that were stated here and are incorrect---- Master Techs do in fact do oil changes and also that when it comes to engines that read oil levels electronically AND have a dipstick tube, the vast majority of mechanics will choose to measure mechanically over electronically. It's much faster and it's also very accurate. It really is all about the speed. Get the job done and move on to the next job. Most mechanics get paid by the book time of a job, so if they work quickly, it's not difficult to get 12 hours booked in an 8-hour day.

[RockJGC]

This has become quite a discussion.
For the record - I have an ECS physical dipstick that lives in my trunk. I only use it to check the oil when refilling after an oil change. I regularly “check” the oil from the cabin using the mmi. My dipstick and Mmi readings are always in alignment. They have never not agreed with each other. I also never let the level get below the 1/2 mark. I keep it full but I do not have a real oil drinker.

I’m not sure if anyone has brought this up but one of the reasons I do not leave an aftermarket dipstick in is because they do not seal the dipstick tube well. They fit but do not seal properly and the orings are either too large or too small. A leak in this area messes with the crankcase vacuum and pcv operation and results in oil leaks, rough running, etc, etc, etc. Might hold in vacuum but sometimes the crankcase goes into a brief positive pressure. I wouldn’t trust my physical dipstick to stay seated during spirited driving.

Audi probably got rid of the dipstick because they knew people would constantly be checking it and placing it in wrong leading to worse problems. The solution was the handy little twist lock cap that fits into the dipstick tube. It’s a snug fit and stays in place under pressure and vacuum - regardless of if you pcv is working ( another conversation/thread) I’m sure there are many other reasons but I’m just saying… Everything isn’t about convenience and access for the end user with these cars - maybe in the cabin but not under the hood!

Mine fits quick snugly and I don't have any vacuum leaks from leaving it installed. It's also important to understand the difference between manifold vacuum and ported vacuum. I have an analog boost/vacuum gauge in my car, so I can see my vacuum/boost all the time. As far as pressure in the crankcase, there shouldn't be any. If you have pressure in the crankcase, it's probably because the PCV system isn't working properly. But again, the oil separator/PVC operates off of manifold vacuum, which doesn't have any real correlation to a leak at the dipstick tube, if you should have one.

[RockJGC]

SNice you make a good point on the vacuum issue. I drive my car in the spirited fashion you speak of and have not had any weirdness but it only takes time. I dont use the ECS part to check the level anyway as I mentioned, it doesnt work as intended. I use the graduated tool with the adjustable levels. So, I will be getting another standard plug and hanging the ECS part on the wall of shame.

LOL, SNice has the ECS dipstick and already mentioned that he uses his and it matches his MMI readout perfectly. Did you ever stop to wonder why you're seemingly the only person with an ECS dipstick who can't manage to read it properly? I'm starting to wonder if this is Bizzaro World or something. Anyway, go ahead put yours on the wall if you want. Nobody else has those problems...

[WHT13AR]

LOL, SNice has the ECS dipstick and already mentioned that he uses his and it matches his MMI readout perfectly. Did you ever stop to wonder why you're seemingly the only person with an ECS dipstick who can't manage to read it properly? I'm starting to wonder if this is Bizzaro World or something. Anyway, go ahead put yours on the wall if you want. Nobody else has those problems...

See, this is the problem with the internet, when you really dont know who you're talking to, you make stupid a$$ statements like you did. Oohhhh, just noticed, "NY/NJ", hahaha, you fud puckers think you know everything. Give me your address, I'll send you the dipstick and you can shove it up your a$$.

So, just so you, and everyone else knows what I did... I have the graduated stick also. I measured the oil level with it, compared it to the ECS part, made a mark, and shoved the ECS one in the tube. Pulled it out and the oil on the "stick", the billet blob at the bottom, was way above the mark, which was the oil level on the graduated stick. So, as I said, the billet blob seems to be pulling oil from the tube and covering above the mark. Not user error.

So my suggestion is, if you want a dipstick to live in the tube, get one with the flat stock for the stick, not a cable with a billet blob at the end.

[silver_tt]

Mine fits quick snugly and I don't have any vacuum leaks from leaving it installed. It's also important to understand the difference between manifold vacuum and ported vacuum. I have an analog boost/vacuum gauge in my car, so I can see my vacuum/boost all the time. As far as pressure in the crankcase, there shouldn't be any. If you have pressure in the crankcase, it's probably because the PCV system isn't working properly. But again, the oil separator/PVC operates off of manifold vacuum, which doesn't have any real correlation to a leak at the dipstick tube, if you should have one.

Manifold vs ported vacuum isn’t relevant to this. PCVs always operate off manifold vacuum and of course it relieves excess crankcase pressure in the 2.0T but what does that have to do with a vacuum leak? I have seen this many times as already stated earlier in this thread. If you are a master tech you should understand why you don’t want to run an engine for a prolonged period with a vacuum leak. Which Audi dealer do you work at in NYC?

[DeeInSeatown]

It's almost never the PCV but if yours is original I would replace it.

One way to track oil consumption is I write down how much I drained out (I bought a great extractor that Smac was kind enough to tell me about and it has the measurement markings right on the side) and then how much I put in. So I always know exactly how much each time and I write it down on a list with all my oil changes, mileage, date, notes.

Another thing I do is when I change the oil I reset the trip counter which goes to 2,000 miles before it resets back to 0. I can always look at this to see how much mileage I have done since my last oil change and then if my spare oil quart is open I just mark where it was at the OCI so I can tell how much I currently used vs what the mileage is showing. It is nothing to obsess over but this can give you an idea if the consumption is accelerating and if so how fast.

This thread has taken on quite a life. Mention oil though and watch the numbers climb.

Any rate, I did change the PCV valve last year with the matching one for my VIN. It was my last ditch, wing and prayer attempt to hopefully lower oil consumption. Before and after, no change though.

[RockJGC]

See, this is the problem with the internet, when you really dont know who you're talking to, you make stupid a$$ statements like you did. Oohhhh, just noticed, "NY/NJ", hahaha, you fud puckers think you know everything. Give me your address, I'll send you the dipstick and you can shove it up your a$$.

So, just so you, and everyone else knows what I did... I have the graduated stick also. I measured the oil level with it, compared it to the ECS part, made a mark, and shoved the ECS one in the tube. Pulled it out and the oil on the "stick", the billet blob at the bottom, was way above the mark, which was the oil level on the graduated stick. So, as I said, the billet blob seems to be pulling oil from the tube and covering above the mark. Not user error.

So my suggestion is, if you want a dipstick to live in the tube, get one with the flat stock for the stick, not a cable with a billet blob at the end.

I live rent free and n your head. You're clueless.

[RockJGC]

Manifold vs ported vacuum isn’t relevant to this. PCVs always operate off manifold vacuum and of course it relieves excess crankcase pressure in the 2.0T but what does that have to do with a vacuum leak? I have seen this many times as already stated earlier in this thread. If you are a master tech you should understand why you don’t want to run an engine for a prolonged period with a vacuum leak. Which Audi dealer do you work at in NYC?

An unsealed dipstick tube isn't a source of a vacuum leak. Shouldn't that be completely obvious?

I really need to come back to the forum to read replies more often.

BTW, I no longer work on cars professionally. And when I did, it wasn't in NYC. I'm from the NY/NJ metro area, that's all.

[silver_tt]

Yes I can tell. Just let it go….

[Theiceman]

An unsealed dipstick tube isn't a source of a vacuum leak. Shouldn't that be completely obvious?

I really need to come back to the forum to read replies more often.

BTW, I no longer work on cars professionally. And when I did, it wasn't in NYC. I'm from the NY/NJ metro area, that's all.

I have not been following this shitshow of thread as it seems to be out of hand. but I know rms can be a major source of vacuum leak via the PCV system, why do you believe an unsealed dipstick wouldn't ? . I'm not trying to throw fuel in the fire, just wondering Next time I have my car out I'm going to pull the dipstick and see if idle changes, proof is in the pudding as they say ..

Sent from my SM-G973W using Audizine Forum mobile app

[silver_tt]

Any unmetered air entering into the system can cause a vacuum leak by definition. How you could work as an Audi tech, even formerly, and not understand this is shocking.

[PassionForAudi]

[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]]]]]Any unmetered air entering into the system can cause a vacuum leak by definition. How you could work as an Audi tech, even formerly, and not understand this is shocking.

I once did an oil change on my girl’s A[emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]]] and forgot to put the dipstick cap back on and when I cranked the car back on that thing started shivering like a San Bernardino stripper during winter months and CEL came on. Put the small cap back on there, turned the car on and it was perfectly fine right after that. Common sense is what it is!


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine Forum

[marshallnoise]

Nothing wrong with electronic oil measurement and it has been used long before this car. My 2002 Porsche 911 Turbo even has electronic oil measurement, works awesome. No idea why anyone would want a dipstick....... I really don't know where the myth comes from thinking electronic oil measurement doesn't work, isn't accurate, etc

For what it's worth, the MMI on my car is wildly out of line with the dipstick.

[silver_tt]

The computer only samples the oil level periodically and does not read the oil level in real time. After I replaced my pistons I have done 10K miles and my engine doesn't consume or leak any oil but sometimes if I check the oil level in the MMI it will show the oil level is down a bar or so, but this is likely because the oil level was sampled by the computer while there was still oil up in the head not drained down to the sump yet. Once I get home and turn the engine off hot and wait a few minutes if I force a measurement it shows the oil level is completely full again. In my experience with owning this car over the last 100K miles it never deviates more than this at maximum, which is something like 1/7th of a quart, effectively nothing and probably attributable to oil being up in the engine where it is supposed to be while it's running. It's never saying the oil level is at minimum when it's really full.

[Veedubber12]

The computer only samples the oil level periodically and does not read the oil level in real time. After I replaced my pistons I have done 10K miles and my engine doesn't consume or leak any oil but sometimes if I check the oil level in the MMI it will show the oil level is down a bar or so, but this is likely because the oil level was sampled by the computer while there was still oil up in the head not drained down to the sump yet. Once I get home and turn the engine off hot and wait a few minutes if I force a measurement it shows the oil level is completely full again. In my experience with owning this car over the last 100K miles it never deviates more than this at maximum, which is something like 1/7th of a quart, effectively nothing and probably attributable to oil being up in the engine where it is supposed to be while it's running. It's never saying the oil level is at minimum when it's really full.

Mine takes forever before it reads a drop in level, like it take a week to catch up to what I was seeing on the dipstick, and of course it's dropped more since. Mine has also never told me to wait approx 2 min after turning car off before checking like my A5 did.

[Smac770]

Supposedly, there's the adaptation or basic setting in 17-instruments to initiate the display calibration. But I didn't see any such thing in VCDS for my J285. Nor the J623 (01-engine). I don't know if it's buried in the infotainment unit (07 for 2G, 5F for 3G, 56 for CAN radio). Someone with ODIS to look and see where they find that would be of interest. You set the oil level to the max mark on a correctly configured T40178, then run the update to reset the display level.

[Veedubber12]

Supposedly, there's the adaptation or basic setting in 17-instruments to initiate the display calibration. But I didn't see any such thing in VCDS for my J285. Nor the J623 (01-engine). I don't know if it's buried in the infotainment unit (07 for 2G, 5F for 3G, 56 for CAN radio). Someone with ODIS to look and see where they find that would be of interest. You set the oil level to the max mark on a correctly configured T40178, then run the update to reset the display level.

I'll play around with this and see what I can find.

[Smac770]

The TSB is 2038119/7.

"3. Perform the "oil level/temp adaptation" in the cluster (address word 17)."

But there's no such adaptation documented, at least not in VCDS. Someone with ODIS would need to look and see what adaptation channel is being interacted with, and give some guidance about how the value is adjusted/computed.

[captain_video]

This is exactly why I installed a dipstick and never deal with the MMI oil level display. It's a ridiculous feature that was totally unnecessary and it's more trouble than it's worth to utilize. Audi (as well as most other car manufacturers these days) loves to add more absurdly expensive and overly complex bells and whistles when they should stick to the KISS principle.

[Smac770]

There's nothing inherently wrong with the remote display system; it's worked perfectly fine for 16 years in my car. That dipstick is completely worthless if your oil goes low in the middle of a drive. The only reason you'll get a warning is because of that ultrasonic level sensor.

Beyond that, there's a clear cut process for validating and recalibrating the display at any time. The problem is the tool set is intentionally not produced and presented as an owner tool set, but as a dealer tool set. But anytime the call is by business types instead of engineering types, the customer will always get screwed.

[silver_tt]

There's nothing inherently wrong with the remote display system; it's worked perfectly fine for 16 years in my car. That dipstick is completely worthless if your oil goes low in the middle of a drive. The only reason you'll get a warning is because of that ultrasonic level sensor.

Beyond that, there's a clear cut process for validating and recalibrating the display at any time. The problem is the tool set is intentionally not produced and presented as an owner tool set, but as a dealer tool set. But anytime the call is by business types instead of engineering types, the customer will always get screwed.

Agree on all points. There is nothing wrong with a dipstick if you want to use one but there's also nothing wrong with electronic oil measurement. It works great in my car too, I personally find no reason to use a dipstick. It's not that I don't like using a dipstick but I just find no need for one. Like I said, the Porsche Mezger engine spared literally no expense in its design (this was ultimately the reason it was killed) and is a true racing engine. If electronic oil measurement was good enough for it 20 years ago that tells you all you need to know. There is nothing inherently wrong with electronic oil measurement and it is better in several regards like getting a warning when your oil level is low in the middle of a drive as stated.

Unfortunately these days the calls for car design are all made by the bean counters, the engineers get no say. SMac you always take an intellectual and academic approach to things and that's what I love about your posts.