3.2 timing chain issues -2005

[AudiNike12]

Hi there

Unfortunately the chain has jumped and the timing was off with 60-70 degress on the passenger side. Resulted in a couple of bent valves. No other damage. I've had the head repaired. But the question is, how do I know if the chain is stretched? Is that always the case? Is it the chain being stretched that cause the the upper tensioner to go bad or is it a broken tensioner that causes the chain to stretch? The tensioner was missing the small upper plastic guide and one of the other plastic guides were broken. The piston was loose and just slid out of the housing.

What I'm getting at is, do I need to remove the engine and replace the chain aswell?

[King_Tutt]

Truly the decision is yours, but since you are already this far into taking the head off I would personally do the chains and other tensioners. If you don't plan to keep it very long the least you could so is the other tensioner because it is a ticking time bomb. You didn't mention the mileage so no idea how stretched your chain might be but you can always check it using VCDS once reassembled.
Also drop the pan and look for the missing chain guide pieces so you don't run into oil pressure problems

[AudiNike12]

The mileage is 180000km(111000 miles). I plan on keeping this car for a while so the sensible thing to do is taking the engine out and replace everything. A lot more work, but worth it. It's a gamble using the old chain

Edit: I've recovered the missing pieces. They managed to not fall down

[Avantly]

The mileage is 180000km(111000 miles). I plan on keeping this car for a while so the sensible thing to do is taking the engine out and replace everything. A lot more work, but worth it. It's a gamble using the old chain

Edit: I've recovered the missing pieces. They managed to not fall down

The chains are usually fine in my experience. You are only doing the upper chains, correct? Otherwise it's an engine out job. Even at 200k+ miles on neglected engines I've not had problems with the center/lower chain. Just make sure you use good quality upper tensioner/guides (INA, not the china junk), and make sure you completely reseal the cam girdles on both sides or you will regret it. Also put a new seal on the oil separator - Note that there are two styles depending on year, aluminum and plastic. For the aluminum you need 3 seals - The seal that goes around the perimeter, the seal that goes on the face of the breather tube, and the O-ring that goes on the breather tube. That o-ring doesn't appear in all of the parts diagrams. Take a good look at the HPFP follower, I've seen them look great at 200k+ miles, and look horrible at 100k miles. While you're at it, check the vacuum pump for leakage, any sign of leakage put the RKX seal kit on it. Out of curiosity, how much carbon did you have on your valves at your mileage?

[AudiNike12]

The chains are usually fine in my experience. You are only doing the upper chains, correct? Otherwise it's an engine out job. Even at 200k+ miles on neglected engines I've not had problems with the center/lower chain. Just make sure you use good quality upper tensioner/guides (INA, not the china junk), and make sure you completely reseal the cam girdles on both sides or you will regret it. Also put a new seal on the oil separator - Note that there are two styles depending on year, aluminum and plastic. For the aluminum you need 3 seals - The seal that goes around the perimeter, the seal that goes on the face of the breather tube, and the O-ring that goes on the breather tube. That o-ring doesn't appear in all of the parts diagrams. Take a good look at the HPFP follower, I've seen them look great at 200k+ miles, and look horrible at 100k miles. While you're at it, check the vacuum pump for leakage, any sign of leakage put the RKX seal kit on it. Out of curiosity, how much carbon did you have on your valves at your mileage?

How do I replace the upper chain without removing the engine or dropping the trans? I mean, it's rght there in plain sight with the head removed but it doesn't look like I can remove it unless I cut the chain. The lower sprocket is too close to the wall/cover to pull the chain up

I've bought a seal kit for the vacuumpump. Didn't think of the oil seperator. Don't know how the valves looked because I sent it to have it fixed right away. I got the old valves back but they looked cleaned because there's barely any carbon on them

[King_Tutt]

You cannot replace either of the chains, you can only replace the tensioners in the car.

[Avantly]

How do I replace the upper chain without removing the engine or dropping the trans? I mean, it's rght there in plain sight with the head removed but it doesn't look like I can remove it unless I cut the chain. The lower sprocket is too close to the wall/cover to pull the chain up

I've bought a seal kit for the vacuumpump. Didn't think of the oil seperator. Don't know how the valves looked because I sent it to have it fixed right away. I got the old valves back but they looked cleaned because there's barely any carbon on them

As King_Tutt said, you only replace the tensioner/guide assembly. I really don't think your chains will be stretched. You will know if there is a problem quite quickly if you follow the install procedure, tighten the cam adjuster bolts, rotate the engine 360 degrees by hand and you have some major misalignment issue with the bolt holes for the cam holder tool. I really doubt you will have any problem given that I have seen chains with 250k miles on them that were still well within spec. It does not take that much force to bend a valve, and if your valves didn't dig gouges into the pistons then you didn't hit that hard anyway.

There are some good videos on youtube covering all the common mistakes, make sure the old tensioner gaskets come off, they usually stick to the head and you don't want to forget to remove them before putting the new ones on. You need to replace all the cam girdle bolts, they also recommend replacing the tensioner bolts. I usually reuse the tensioner cover bolts. Make sure you at least replace the valve cover bolts that are at the lowest (most outboard, i.e. left and right side of the car) points, these are most likely to leak if the rubber donut seals on the bolts are bad. Deutsche auto parts (shopdap dot com) had the best prices on OEM bolts in the USA last I checked but it looks like you are in Sweden so you probably have better sources.

Make sure you replace the oil filter housing gasket, that is a guaranteed leak.

Careful separating the breather tubes from the valve covers, if they give me trouble, I, uhh, get out the big pry bar and put it against the bottom edge of the tube fitting and pry up on the front side, and shove a hook pick or 90 degree pick under the other side, they usually come right off. If the breather tube breaks, and it isn't too brittle, and you are cheap like me, you can coat the tube in RTV silicone and wrap the silicone coating in cloth tape, making sure the silicone oozes into the cloth tape a little. Then after it cures I usually finish it off with some tesa tape, the hard cloth type, not the fuzzy type.

Make sure you pull vacuum on the swirl flap solenoids or hold them open when reinstalling the lower plastic manifold pieces so that you don't jam them against the guide plates.

Do yourself a favor when you have it all apart and clean the heck out of the throttle body, make sure to run basic settings on it to recalibrate after reassembling.

Put new O-rings on the cam sensors that are on the outboard side of each head, those love to leak.

Inspect your HPFP follower and replace if questionable. The surface should be nice and smooth. They are usually fine but I've replaced them once or twice before.

I'm assuming you already broke the plastic coolant crossover pipe between the heads, if it is original look closely at the plastic channel that the rubber seal goes on either end of the pipe, the channel edge will break off on the inside (coolant side), those pipes always get replaced once in the vehicle's lifespan. Check that entire thin edge of the channel for cracks. If it's OK then you are either really lucky, or it has been replaced before.

And as always, when doing this much work to a C5/C6... Check all the cowl drains, sunroof drains, and for the C6 clean the snow screen in the intake pipe just back from the grille. I didn't even know what a dang snowscreen was until I got a C6. Mine get filthy to the point of total restriction in my state.

Apologies if you already knew all this stuff, this is just my brain dump on the 3.2 FSI timing job :-)

[AudiNike12]

I appreciate all the info and help I can get :D I will try and put the old chain on with the new tensioner and see what happens. I've replaced a tensioner on a 2.4FSI before so I am familiar with the job.

Just a question. Before I took the damaged head off, I tried put a new tensioner in and put on the old chain. I tigthened up the cam adjusters to 80Nm but I skipped the last 90 degrees just because I just wanted to test if the chain was alright. The chain felt tight enough but when I started to turn the engine over by hand, the cams on the damaged head jumped forward 90 degrees(like smashed) and went out of timing. Could this be because I didn't tighten the cam bolts the last 90 degrees? Or could it be because of the bent valves(8 were damaged)? I mean, if a chain is stretched it wouldn't cause both cams to just jump forward 90 degrees right? It would just jump a tooth?

[King_Tutt]

Were you using the locking tools when putting it back together? If I remember correctly when my 2.0t snapped the belt it made the cams stick at one position due to the valves, so I think it might be the same situation

[AudiNike12]

Yes I used the timing tool. I first thought it was because of a stretched chain but now I don't know. As you say, could be the same situation. I'll see if it happens again when I install the head this weekend

[Avantly]

I appreciate all the info and help I can get :D I will try and put the old chain on with the new tensioner and see what happens. I've replaced a tensioner on a 2.4FSI before so I am familiar with the job.

Just a question. Before I took the damaged head off, I tried put a new tensioner in and put on the old chain. I tigthened up the cam adjusters to 80Nm but I skipped the last 90 degrees just because I just wanted to test if the chain was alright. The chain felt tight enough but when I started to turn the engine over by hand, the cams on the damaged head jumped forward 90 degrees(like smashed) and went out of timing. Could this be because I didn't tighten the cam bolts the last 90 degrees? Or could it be because of the bent valves(8 were damaged)? I mean, if a chain is stretched it wouldn't cause both cams to just jump forward 90 degrees right? It would just jump a tooth?

Are you sure you followed the entire procedure and had the chain engaged on both cam adjusters and the lower gear? They won't slip even if you don't do the 90 degree final step... It doesn't make sense that they would jump forward like that. Even if the chain were stretched, they wouldn't be able to jump that far, chain stretch is measured in fractions of a millimeter. You were rotating the engine clockwise and not counterclockwise, correct? :-)

[AudiNike12]

Are you sure you followed the entire procedure and had the chain engaged on both cam adjusters and the lower gear? They won't slip even if you don't do the 90 degree final step... It doesn't make sense that they would jump forward like that. Even if the chain were stretched, they wouldn't be able to jump that far, chain stretch is measured in fractions of a millimeter. You were rotating the engine clockwise and not counterclockwise, correct? :-)

Well, it happened again after installing the head

When I release the tensioner pin, the chain seems tight enough. But when I start to turn the engine over the chain gets loose up top. Not down where the tensioner is. And after that the cams jumped forward maybe 30-40 degress( not 90). I guess the cam gears jumps forward until they catch the chain again? And now the timing is off. But the chain is now super tight up top and down by the tensioner after the cams jumped forward. I'm not sure how it looks on the lower gear.. And if I start to turn the engine over again, same thing will happen.

I put the chain on the intake adjuster first and install it on the cam, and then the exhaust adjuster. And I make sure all the slack is over on the tensioner side. Then I screw the cam bolts in handtight so the adjusters can still move. Then I release the pin. Then the torque procedure etc.

I'm rotating the engine clockwise. I just don't understand what's going on. If it's not a stretched chain

[King_Tutt]

When you skipped timing did you take the cam phasers off? It could have sheared the pins on the phaser

[AudiNike12]

When you skipped timing did you take the cam phasers off? It could have sheared the pins on the phaser

I did take a look at the cam adjusters when i took the head off and the pins didn't look damaged to me. But I don't have anything to compare it to

I don't think anything is damaged this time. But I'll have to take the cam girdle off to place the cams in the right positon again *sigh*

[Avantly]

I did take a look at the cam adjusters when i took the head off and the pins didn't look damaged to me. But I don't have anything to compare it to

I don't think anything is damaged this time. But I'll have to take the cam girdle off to place the cams in the right positon again *sigh*

I assume you know this but make sure you use the anerobic sealant and not silicone! I've seen several 3.2's leaking because they were recently resealed and the dum dum mechanic used silicone!!!

[King_Tutt]

I would undo it again, make sure cams are locked with tool. Slip chains on and align adjusters with dowel pins and torque, make sure to have the crank-pin installed. If you can post photos of adjusters/ video of it skipping that would be great.

[AudiNike12]

The cams are always locked with the tool. What do you mean align adjusters with dowel pins? cYou just push it on to the cam if I'm not mistaken? They don't go on any specific way right?

Yes I use anerobic sealant :)

Or the timing chain is really stretched and is causing this

[King_Tutt]

Yeah you are right, I forgot about 3.2 not having the dowel pins , my 2.0t had the pin that sheared and was causing timing to jump.

[AudiNike12]

I used a endoscope to look at the lower gear and it seems like the chain sits on top of the gears, not in between like it should. Not entirely sure. Hard to see. It should not be able to do that no? Maybe that is why the chain is super tight at the moment. Does that mean it is stretched or is it not put on right from the beginning?

[G-Can]

stop obsessing with stretched chain. Chain doesnt stretch like rubber.

There is something else thats an issue there, not stretching.

[AudiNike12]

I will try :P

Seems like this dude is having similar problem

https://www.justanswer.com/car/7f6cf...tensioner.html

[King_Tutt]

Seems to me like the chain isn't on the lower sprocket (maybe sheared the bolt holding the lower gear on?), or torque on the adjusters was done wrong.
Like I said before would be nice for a video or pictures of what is going on
https://youtu.be/UK-Lhu4gF-k?t=1373
This guy goes over how to do it so timing isn't messed up

[AudiNike12]

Seems to me like the chain isn't on the lower sprocket (maybe sheared the bolt holding the lower gear on?), or torque on the adjusters was done wrong.
Like I said before would be nice for a video or pictures of what is going on
https://youtu.be/UK-Lhu4gF-k?t=1373
This guy goes over how to do it so timing isn't messed up

I've torqued it exactly like this and like the manual says I should. I release the tensioner pin before I start to torque it down. Like the manual says

I don't know if I'm gonna get a video of it because I don't wanna smash the cams forward on purpose. I was gonna do it before I tried it but I forgot. I will try next time. I will need to figure out what is going on first. At the moment I've pushed the car out of the garage becasue I need to do stuff on some other cars that are urgent. I'll look further into this after that

[Avantly]

King_Tutt makes a good point, it is possible to install the tensioner and get the chain on both cam sprockets but have it sitting off the side of the main sprocket. The hint is that the chain isn't centered all the way down the guides as it disappears into the cover if it's not engaged on the main sprocket. I'd get a mirror and check this first. It is quite possible that after rotating it, it may jump back on to the main sprocket, putting you off by at least one tooth. I have one of those cheesy amazon "USB Endoscope" cameras and I always use this to check engagement of timing gears like this, it's hard to get the right angle to see it with a mirror once the tensioner is on.

[AudiNike12]

To me it kinda looks like the chain sits on top of the gears right now. It's hard to tell by the pics

[Avantly]

It does indeed appear to be sitting on the gears correctly. So here's a question. You said that when you started rotating the engine, the chain got loose up top, by that did you mean it got loose in between the cam sprockets? Or between the intake cam sprocket and the main sprocket (i.e. the inboard section of the chain between cam and main sprocket)?

[AudiNike12]

In between the cam sprockets

[Avantly]

With the chain on properly and tensioner locking pin removed to allow for tension, how much slack do you have in the loosest part of the chain? You should be able to check this even with the cams not properly aligned. Something does not make sense here.

[AudiNike12]

Well, right now it's very tight. After the cams slammed forward. I can't be sure it sits correct on the lower gear though. When I first removed the tensioner pin when I installed everything, it was a bit of slack down by the tensioner, not much. Up top, I couldn't move it much. A little. Have to check that again, can't remember exactly. Right now the car is outside

Do you think there could be anything wrong with the cam phasers?

[Avantly]

Well, right now it's very tight. After the cams slammed forward. I can't be sure it sits correct on the lower gear though. When I first removed the tensioner pin when I installed everything, it was a bit of slack down by the tensioner, not much. Up top, I couldn't move it much. A little. Have to check that again, can't remember exactly. Right now the car is outside

Do you think there could be anything wrong with the cam phasers?

I will be honest, in all the 3.2 I have worked on I've never had to disassemble nor replace the cam phasers, even at >200k miles. *If* there could have been damage from valvetrain damage due to piston-valve contact? I am not sure, but based on other phasers I have seen disassembled it seems unlikely. Furthermore, the amount of rotation you mentioned (60-70 degrees) makes this seem even more unlikely to me, it should not be possible for a phaser to rotate that far and if it could it seems that you would be able to rotated it by hand, i.e. the damage would be very obvious?

[AudiNike12]

Ok. It's more like 40-45 degrees tbh

I will have to take a closer look when I have it in the garage again. I could keep rotating it by hand from where it is right now but I'm afraid if the cams jump again it will be even more off timing and perhaps cause damage? Might have to re-align the cams first

[AudiNike12]

Well, I ended up pulling the engine. I then noticed that the new tensioner I installed was a bad one. The piston kept sticking so it didn't tension the chain properly *sigh*. This could have been avoided if I only got a functioning tensioner to begin with. Replaced it all and now it turns over nicely

[Avantly]

Oh geez, that sucks. Was it an INA brand?

[AudiNike12]

No, it was Febi

[Avantly]

Wow. I just would not expect a febi tensioner to be bad out of the box, that would send me on a wild goose chase for sure. That sucks man, I hope the reassembly goes well.

[AudiNike12]

Well, would you know. Problem still exists :/ I've another one helping me and we're scratching our heads like crazy. Chain is good. New tensioner again. Cam jumps still on just the passenger side. Can something inside the cylinder head cause this? Something wrong with the lower gear? So bizarre. Because from what we can see it's on the lower gear it "skips" but can't see anything wrong. Maybe have to take that gear off?

[Avantly]

This makes absolutely no sense. I think you are in a unique situation here. The cam journals look good? Have you tried to check the cams for straightness? I have never needed to take a 3.2 apart beyond the upper chains. There, uhh, isn't any foreign objects inside the cylinder on that side that would obstruct the piston or valve from moving to their desired extents?

[AudiNike12]

All that I needed was oil pressure. Without it, the tensioner would retract and not put enough tension on the chain. That's why it was skipping. Never experienced this before. I should be able to turn the engine by hand and check that everything is ok no? Without having oil pressure. Never had to on the 2.4FSI I replaced the tensioner on.

[Avantly]

The install procedure at the end of the tensioner install where you rotate the crankshaft 720 degrees back to TDC and verify that with the crank lock reinserted, the cams on both heads still align with the holding tool does not really check that the tensioner is working, it simply verifies correct time. Since you are failing this on one head (as a result of the unknown issue), and it seems that it can't have anything to do with oil pressure, and the tensioner has been eliminated as the cause, I'd be checking the following on that head, not necessarily in this order:
Inspection of the valve springs - Did anything fall down in there that is keeping the cam from fully depressing the valve?
Inspection of each cam roller - Is every one properly engaging on its inner lash adjuster pivot point and sitting properly between the cam and the valve stem?
Inspection of each cylinder - I'd personally use one of the Amazon/eBay endoscopes that have a camera on the tip as well as side of the tip allowing you to inspect everything in the cylinder. Any cylinder suspected of valve issues should be leakdown tested.
Inspection of the cam adjuster in question - I am sure you torqued it properly, but always good to give the sprocket a second look and make sure that there isn't some damage, sprocket wear or deformity hiding under the chain.
Inspection of the cam in question - Is it bent? I'd expect that it would break before it bends but you never know. I don't think that a cam binding would cause this issue anyway so not sure I would suspect this at all.

Due to the direction of rotation, while you turn it the intake sprocket is being pulled by the secondary sprocket below, and the exhaust sprocket is more or less being pulled by the intake sprocket. If you get over the center of a lobe on the intake, the intake should want to spring forward, but is limited by the exhaust. If you go over the center of a lobe on the exhaust, it wants to spring forward which will cause slack between the intake and exhaust sprockets, and is limited only by the chain slack when the engine is off but this shouldn't be enough slack to allow either to skip (though it would seem that the exhaust would have a higher chance of skipping. I can't really make sense in my head of what you are experiencing unless the chain had some serious stretch; Based on past experience, I highly doubt you have any notable chain stretch at 111k miles!

[AudiNike12]

You're right about the other side working without oil pressure. This is frustrating. I will take a look at the things you mentioned