Camshaft adjustment vs adaptation

[6SpeedS4]

Every once in awhile I get what I think is a timing chain rattle for less than a second during cold start. Used my VCDS (latest version) to look at the camshaft adaption for bankn1 and 2, but cannot find it anywhere in the menus. All I find is camshaft adjustment, which is showing 1.1° for bank 1 and 2.6° for bank 2.

Does anyone know the difference between adjustment and adaptation and if rosstech no longer ger offers it ?

Thanks !

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[LowKeyLoki]

The rattle you are hearing is the timing chain tensioners, the tensioners aren’t holding full pressure until the engine is running which causes slight slack in the chain and rattle. There is a TSB for this issue, if the rattle goes over 3 sec on cold start then you need to replace the tensioners. This can also be caused by the drain back valve in the oil filter housing being worn, allowing oil to drain back out of the housing when car sits for long period between starts. I have a one sec rattle on my 2014, it doesn’t bother me and I won’t do anything to it till it becomes an issue and has more than 3 sec rattle.

[Smac770]

3.0T uses Simos, not Bosch MED 17. The camshaft adaptation value we commonly reference for EA888 Gen1/Gen2 4-cyl with Bosch MED 17 has no relevance to Simos engines like the 3.0T and the Gen3 4-cyl.

No idea if Simos engine communities determined any measuring value based means to assess the chain state without physical inspection. (Do the V6 even have inspection caps you can remove to inspect the tensioner extensions?)

[6SpeedS4]

The rattle you are hearing is the timing chain tensioners, the tensioners aren’t holding full pressure until the engine is running which causes slight slack in the chain and rattle. There is a TSB for this issue, if the rattle goes over 3 sec on cold start then you need to replace the tensioners. This can also be caused by the drain back valve in the oil filter housing being worn, allowing oil to drain back out of the housing when car sits for long period between starts. I have a one sec rattle on my 2014, it doesn’t bother me and I won’t do anything to it till it becomes an issue and has more than 3 sec rattle.

Thanks. Thought the rattle was due to timing chain stretch. Will continue to monitor the rattle.

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[6SpeedS4]

3.0T uses Simos, not Bosch MED 17. The camshaft adaptation value we commonly reference for EA888 Gen1/Gen2 4-cyl with Bosch MED 17 has no relevance to Simos engines like the 3.0T and the Gen3 4-cyl.

No idea if Simos engine communities determined any measuring value based means to assess the chain state without physical inspection. (Do the V6 even have inspection caps you can remove to inspect the tensioner extensions?)

I've seen a few videos of guys with 3.0T running vcds to get a camshaft adaption value that determines how bad the chain stretch is. From what I understand, anything greater than 7° in either direction means you better have the timing service done.

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[Smac770]

If that's what they've worked out for their engine, that's cool. Never seen it stated as such here before. Keep in mind there's several eras of 3.0T supercharged, and what applies to one might not apply to another.

CCAA (C6.5) / CCBA (B8.0) would be the early 3.0T running Simos 8.4 (CAJA & CAKA for EU emissions)
CGX_ would be the updated 3.0T running Simos 8.5, and supporting electromechanical power steering and stop/start (CGW_ for EU emissions)
CRE_ would be the evo 3.0T running Simos 16. While RoW got CRE, the US B8 simply got a few CRE changes backported to the CGX_ to create the CTU_. The US D4 and C7 facelifts picked up the CRE_, minus the MPI.

So one needs to be more clear specifically which engine code is being spoken of when talking "3.0T" at a technical level. They all have VVT on the intake side. Only CRE (and the other evo code, I forget it) has VVT on the exhaust side. Pretty sure you'll only have the cam position sensor on the VVT enabled ones (so intake bank 1 and intake bank 2).

There's no measuring value in a CTUB blockmap with a label involving the word adapt* related to cam timing. So if it's there in Simos 8.5, it must be one of the cryptic acronym labels. If it is one of the plain labeled values, best guess is the phase adjustment values:

ENG103031 Camshaft adjustment: inlet phase: bank 1 0.000 -0.750 °
ENG99898 Camshaft adjustment: inlet phase: bank 2 1.125 0.375 °
ENG99173 Camshaft adjustment: inlet: bank 1/2: specified 127.875 127.875 °
ENG100104 Camshaft adjustment: inlet: bank 1: actual 0.000 0.000 °
ENG100701 Camshaft adjustment: inlet: bank 2: actual 0.375 0.375 °

No idea why the specified makes no sense relative to the actuals. But I have a Bosch MED 17 ECM. The Simos 8 stuff doesn't seem nearly as documented.

[6SpeedS4]

If that's what they've worked out for their engine, that's cool. Never seen it stated as such here before. Keep in mind there's several eras of 3.0T supercharged, and what applies to one might not apply to another.

CCAA (C6.5) / CCBA (B8.0) would be the early 3.0T running Simos 8.4 (CAJA & CAKA for EU emissions)
CGX_ would be the updated 3.0T running Simos 8.5, and supporting electromechanical power steering and stop/start (CGW_ for EU emissions)
CRE_ would be the evo 3.0T running Simos 16. While RoW got CRE, the US B8 simply got a few CRE changes backported to the CGX_ to create the CTU_. The US D4 and C7 facelifts picked up the CRE_, minus the MPI.

So one needs to be more clear specifically which engine code is being spoken of when talking "3.0T" at a technical level. They all have VVT on the intake side. Only CRE (and the other evo code, I forget it) has VVT on the exhaust side. Pretty sure you'll only have the cam position sensor on the VVT enabled ones (so intake bank 1 and intake bank 2).

There's no measuring value in a CTUB blockmap with a label involving the word adapt* related to cam timing. So if it's there in Simos 8.5, it must be one of the cryptic acronym labels. If it is one of the plain labeled values, best guess is the phase adjustment values:

ENG103031Camshaft adjustment: inlet phase: bank 10.000-0.750 °
ENG99898Camshaft adjustment: inlet phase: bank 21.1250.375 °
ENG99173Camshaft adjustment: inlet: bank 1/2: specified127.875127.875 °
ENG100104Camshaft adjustment: inlet: bank 1: actual0.0000.000 °
ENG100701Camshaft adjustment: inlet: bank 2: actual0.3750.375 °

No idea why the specified makes no sense relative to the actuals. But I have a Bosch MED 17 ECM. The Simos 8 stuff doesn't seem nearly as documented.

Great info, thanks.

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[destrux]

Another cause for excessive startup chain noise can be using a non OE style oil filter. If it doesn't have a plastic support cage inside the filter it will allow the whole filter to bow inward and the pleats will collapse together and restrict oil flow. Long story short I got into a pinch because I noticed my oil change supplies I ordered hadn't actually arrived but I had already drained the oil and thrown the filter in the trash and so I had to use a carquest filter that doesn't have a support cage inside to finish my oil change (carquest filter, 5W40 oil). My chain noise went from a half second to about 5 seconds. First start after an oil change it always rattles longer till it primes the filter and so I didn't think anything of it till the next day, and somehow my mind jumped straight to "oh no an upper chain guide must have broken off now" and I forgot that I had used the carquest filter till I was billing the oil change supplies out to myself a few days later.

Changing the oil filter to an OEM filter and the oil back to my usual 5w30 mobil ESP the rattle went back to about a half second and is not even every cold start, just some of them.

Looking at the carquest filter after it came out it was obviously bowed inward. The thing that bothered me the most about all of this was when I ordered it on the advance auto parts site the photo of the carquest filter showed an OEM type filter with tan ends and a plastic cage inside the filter, and the one that was delivered was obviously not the same supplier and had plastic ends and no cage. Lesson learned there. Not even worth using one of those in a pinch.

[Nillious]

I had this exact experience. I posted about it in the rattle thread. Oem filter is very important to these engines due to it supplying sufficient pressure on the anti drain back valve.

[SwankPeRFection]

While I wouldn’t use anything but a Mann or Mahle filter myself, the part about not having an internal support lattice isn’t 100% correct. Both of those manufacturers didn’t have that originally and our factory caps actually have the support lattice built into it. Audi changed the design due to this filter being used on newer cars that don’t have the same design as our caps do. In other words, they needed a support lattice in the filter to keep it from collapsing.

That said, one important thing you guys need to try and do is when you put your new filter into the cap, try to line up the filter and built in lattices so that they overlap and line up. That way you’re not introducing any additional restriction from both being offset and blocking more of the flow. It’s not the end of the world, but it’s something you should be mindful if you give a shit about your car.

[Nillious]

I see what you’re saying. But I measured my filter length before install. I had an extreme rattle on start up de to a federated oil filter being too short. I now always measure the filter to be sure. When I removed it it was about three mm shorter and bowed in slightly. The oem mann filter doesn’t bow or shorten at all.

good point on lining the filter up with the cap. I’ll have to pay attention to that next time.

[SwankPeRFection]

Correct, but that was the length thing… not anything to do with the lattice. You just ran up on a cheap ass filter manufacturer design.

Also, a few years ago I stopped using Mann when they incorporated the lattice design because they changed to manufacturing them in Mexico and the media used was nowhere the same stiffness and quality craftsmanship as their prior German made ones. I flipped over the Mahle then, but just recently went back to Mann since they’re now German made again. Their media composition went back to the same quality as before and about the same as Mahle ones.

That short bullshit filter I remember reading about that you posted was just that… a bullshit filter, lattice or no lattice.