Oil leak and codes P2279, 2187, P2279, P12A2, P0299

[eclipse1]

Hi,
Acquired this 2011 A4 with over 200k miles.😬
The car doesn't seem to be maintained very well or just showing some issues due to the age.
Primary issue that's highly noticeable is the car runs very rough and shaking on idle. The EPC light shows up every now and then when the car is moving from a full stop. Engine stopped a few times with the EPC light, then started back up.
Other thing that I'm noticing is that there's coolant leaking. Haven't figured out where it's leaking from yet.
Now noticing that there's some oil leak on top/front of the engine. Possibly from the timing chain front cover (picture).

Car drives fine majority of times without any isues.
From reading some threads here, maybe start with replacing the PCV?
There were some misfires. I checked the spark plugs and can't tell how old but they seem okay.

Please advise on where I should start.
Hope it's not too serious but chances are it is.20230119_001421.jpg20230119_001434.jpg20230119_001417.jpg

[Theiceman]

if you have read anything you will park it until you have checked timing and phase adaption lol.. i think its a little unfair to say not maintained properly, you have a small 4 cylinder with a small turbo that has lasted at least 200K miles. PO did something right.

[eclipse1]

if you have read anything you will park it until you have checked timing and phase adaption lol.. i think its a little unfair to say not maintained properly, you have a small 4 cylinder with a small turbo that has lasted at least 200K miles. PO did something right.

Are you saying this car is at it's end of life? I read some of the timing chain related issues and might've been in denial and didn't want to have to admit or deal with that!
Would you please elaborate a little on what could possibly need to be looked at immediately?

Thank you.

[redrackham17]

Are you saying this car is at it's end of life? I read some of the timing chain related issues and might've been in denial and didn't want to have to admit or deal with that!
Would you please elaborate a little on what could possibly need to be looked at immediately?

Thank you.

Get VCDS or go to someone or a shop near you who has it, and have them check the timing /phase adaption in the tensioner. Usually, 5 degrees of adjustment is where you need a full-timing chain service. If the car is reasonably below 5 degrees of adjustment, then something else is wrong. We can start working from there. However, if it is indeed over 5 degrees, you should not be driving that thing and need to get it serviced.

[MongoMcG]

Your number one priority should be checking the timing chain. If it's the original chain with over 200,000 miles on it the car has been protected by the saints up to now, but even they are powerless to stop a piston from slamming into the valves and the catastrophic engine immolation that will occur if the chain skips on a cam or the crank. Until you know for certain, every turn of the motor could be its last.

If the VCDS software is not available to you, here's how to check the timing chain tensioner through the peep hole in the front of the lower timing chain cover. This video is for a VW which is sideways and has some extra plumbing (boost pipe) in front of the peep hole that the B8 does not have, but the procedures (if not the angles) are the same. You can skip to 1:22 min mark. to get to the meat of the video:


There is information on this forum and elsewhere about tensioners (old and new style) and plenty of info for taking on the task of replacing the chain yourself, if you're inclined. DIY timing chain replacement is a huge $ saver, but it's not for the faint hearted. If you do not have the factory service manuals, a one day subscription at https://erwin.audiusa.com is $35 and you can download PDF's of the FSMs, TSBs, and more for your VIN. On the top navigation menu for the page, point your mouse to "My Account" and select "Subscriptions". I don't remember much past that point, but you're a grown up; you'll figure it out.

The 2.0L TFSI is an "interference engine", so if the chain skips then the valves (camshafts, actually) are out of time with the crankshaft, and when the pistons are shoved to the top while the valves are still open, BAM! empty bank account.

The software solutions (VCDS et al) that can measure timing chain stretch have a rabbit hole to go down here:
https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...hain+cam+phase

[Theiceman]

if you have poor performance like you are describing dont start it to to vcds or anything, get it towed or inspect the tensioner as shown above. Your car but i would STOP attempting to start it until you know.

[eclipse1]

Your number one priority should be checking the timing chain. If it's the original chain with over 200,000 miles on it the car has been protected by the saints up to now, but even they are powerless to stop a piston from slamming into the valves and the catastrophic engine immolation that will occur if the chain skips on a cam or the crank. Until you know for certain, every turn of the motor could be its last.

If the VCDS software is not available to you, here's how to check the timing chain tensioner through the peep hole in the front of the lower timing chain cover. This video is for a VW which is sideways and has some extra plumbing (boost pipe) in front of the peep hole that the B8 does not have, but the procedures (if not the angles) are the same. You can skip to 1:22 min mark. to get to the meat of the video:


There is information on this forum and elsewhere about tensioners (old and new style) and plenty of info for taking on the task of replacing the chain yourself, if you're inclined. DIY timing chain replacement is a huge $ saver, but it's not for the faint hearted. If you do not have the factory service manuals, a one day subscription at https://erwin.audiusa.com is $35 and you can download PDF's of the FSMs, TSBs, and more for your VIN. On the top navigation menu for the page, point your mouse to "My Account" and select "Subscriptions". I don't remember much past that point, but you're a grown up; you'll figure it out.

The 2.0L TFSI is an "interference engine", so if the chain skips then the valves (camshafts, actually) are out of time with the crankshaft, and when the pistons are shoved to the top while the valves are still open, BAM! empty bank account.

The software solutions (VCDS et al) that can measure timing chain stretch have a rabbit hole to go down here:
https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...hain+cam+phase

Thank you so much for your detailed post. That is very helpful. I called a couple audi dealership around me and they charge about $200 to do a diagnosis. I don't know anybody in the area who may have the tools and knowledge to do the diagnosis. I'm in kansas city area.
I was thinking if I should get the Ross tech tools or just have the dealer do the diagnosis for me. There's more than just one major issue with this car. The car stopped several times this weekend when I was trying to get out of her gas station. EPC light cane on and engine stopped. Started back up.
What are you guys suggest? Have the dealer do a full scan? Just not sure how detailed they would be, they also said they're booked for several weeks.

[MongoMcG]

Thank you so much for your detailed post. That is very helpful. I called a couple audi dealership around me and they charge about $200 to do a diagnosis. I don't know anybody in the area who may have the tools and knowledge to do the diagnosis. I'm in kansas city area.
I was thinking if I should get the Ross tech tools or just have the dealer do the diagnosis for me. There's more than just one major issue with this car. The car stopped several times this weekend when I was trying to get out of her gas station. EPC light cane on and engine stopped. Started back up.
What are you guys suggest? Have the dealer do a full scan? Just not sure how detailed they would be, they also said they're booked for several weeks.

Ask around the forums about recommendations for local independent shops. Big savings over the dealership, as I suspect the costs will be pretty high to get the car right. Gut feeling tells me a few things to consider, so don't be surprised if the service tech brings any of these up: timing chain ($1500), pistons, rings & rods ($3500), turbo ($2500), water pump ($700), carbon cleaning ($500), various seals and gaskets, sensors, VVT valve...
(Prices are ballpark guesstimates for independent shops. Actuals vary widely. Combining jobs, such as carbon cleaning and water pump, can save labor costs):

P2279 means there is unmetered air entering the intake - probably a leak/bad clamp in the turbo to throttle body plumbing. Here are some possible causes:

• A leak in the engine-side air duct
• A disconnected or broken vacuum hose
• A faulty fuel injector seal
• Leaky brake booster vacuum hose
• Intake air temperature sensor leak
• Incorrect camshaft timing
• PCV valve leak
• PCV hose leak
• Purge line leak
• Throttle body or throttle body gasket leak
• Intake manifold or manifold gasket leak

P2187 is a lean fault - air fuel mix doesn't have as much fuel as the computer expected. Some possible causes:

• Intake air leaks
• Faulty front heated oxygen sensor
• Ignition misfiring
• Faulty fuel injectors
• Incorrect fuel pressure
• Lack of fuel
• Faulty Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor
• Incorrect Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) hose connection

P12A2 is a fuel rail pressure fault (pressure too high). The fuel rail pressure sensor electric connection is faulty, or shorted, is among other possible reasons. This can sometimes lead back to a fault in the the low pressure system.

The 299 code is for turbo under boost, which indicates the wastegate or the diverter valve on the turbo is worn out. But the car will run and drive fine with a bad turbo, so you can save that expense until later.

There is some overlap in potential problems, so part of the initial diagnosis should be a smoke test for leaks in the intake and vacuum systems. That might clear up some errors and get you a few miles to save some cash for the larger R&R jobs. Clogged fuel injectors could be an issue as well.

Good luck finding an indie shop near you in the Kansas City area.

[redrackham17]

Good luck finding an indie shop near you in the Kansas City area.

I don't have much to add here but just wanted to jump in the thread and say that this dude really knows his stuff and is dead on with the issues, potential things to get done, and prices. It's a lot of stuff to do and money to spend but afterward your car should be straight for years.

[eclipse1]

Thank you!
I need some positive words for the day. Since I started this thread, stress level has gone up.
I consider myself handy and I can get most tasks done with the right tool and time. I'll start calling around and see if I can get some indie shops or mechanics to help with the diagnosis. I might attempt some of the tasks myself.
Was also thinking of starting to add easy and small parts to see if that makes any difference? like changing the PCV and spark plugs. As well as a new water pump.

[redrackham17]

Thank you!
I need some positive words for the day. Since I started this thread, stress level has gone up.
I consider myself handy and I can get most tasks done with the right tool and time. I'll start calling around and see if I can get some indie shops or mechanics to help with the diagnosis. I might attempt some of the tasks myself.
Was also thinking of starting to add easy and small parts to see if that makes any difference? like changing the PCV and spark plugs. As well as a new water pump.

Yep first thing to do is check the timing with VCDS or at a shop and make sure the car won't grenade itself. If so, and you're up to the challenge, buy the chain and tensioner service repair kit and the tools and get that done first. If the timing is fine, then all your attention needs to go to your intake/fueling system. Remove your intake manifold, fix the water pump, replace the pcv, do your injectors since you've got the IM off anyway, clean out the fuel rail and check for issues, make sure no hoses or vaccuum lines are failing, and check the IM itself because the earlier plastic ones (I'm guessing that's what you have since the metal ones came out in 2013) have a tendency to fail at various points. Regarding the P0299, your turbo may be losing boost because of your wastegate, but you can drive forever like that as long as it's not internally damaged or leaking oil or anything. That's a problem for another day. There are a few guys on this forum who have actually been able to fix the wastegate actuator rod using simple $10 Home Depot products, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there. Good luck and let us know what happens!

[MongoMcG]

Well, again, checking the timing chain is vitally important - the #1 on the list. Replacing the timing chain depends on what you find. The biggest benefit for now is eliminating the unknown hidden behind that peep hole. Second, check all hoses and clamps for leaks, cracks, etc.. Give each clamp and hose a loosening, then tighten back up, nice and square with the pipe. If you need to replace any of the 'single-ear' hose clamps, they use a specialty crimper tool (@$30). A kit of a couple hundred clamps in various sizes are pretty cheap. If your visual check/hose reseating does not reveal/seal the leak then a smoke test at the shop will sniff it out. Unmetered air really messes with the computer, so sealing the intake and vacuum systems will clear some of the issues.

If your intake manifold itself is leaking, there are a bunch of cats that replace their intake manifold and sell their stock manifold here on the forum. If for any reason you have the IM removed from the engine, do a carbon cleaning. If you have an air compressor and a shop-vac you can do it yourself in a couple of hours. Here's my experience doing it (there's a video at the end of the post about removing the intake manifold): https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...1#post14772528

[eclipse1]

To update the good peeps here, I was able to find and setup an appointment with a good local shop that works only on Audi and VW. I'm taking the vehicle there next week and hasn't driven it since opening this thread.

I'll update the thread once I learn what all they find out.

[MongoMcG]

To update the good peeps here, I was able to find and setup an appointment with a good local shop that works only on Audi and VW. I'm taking the vehicle there next week and hasn't driven it since opening this thread.

I'll update the thread once I learn what all they find out.

Good luck man. Hope you found a righteous crew. The forum will provide plenty of second opinions or try to answer questions about their diagnosis.

[eclipse1]

So the shop called back with their diagnosis within 30 minutes after I dropped off the car!
Their diagnosis is:
*The PCV valve needs replaced
*The upper timing chain cover seals (3 seals) needs replaced to stop oil leak
*The water pump is leaking and needs replaced

I asked about timing chain and they said they can't tell for sure if that needs to be replaced.. said if it rattles and such, that's an indication that it might!

I already knew about the PCV and the seals.. wasn't much of a thorough diagnosis. I can change the PCV easily. I can try to attempt to get the waterpump as well. Any suggestions on which parts to go with? I don't want to put in the most expensive parts since it has such high mileage..
They also mentioned about carbon buildup and possible piston replacement but that's a very expensive repair so probably not worth it at this point.

Thoughts?

[eclipse1]

AND... for the main attraction..

MY AUDI IS POOPING!!??

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/EWYBj-c1qMM

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/UqFkRGhPGmU

[MongoMcG]

Don't know about pooping pebbles, but for the water pump here are the parts and bolts I used for the water pump replacement, plus torque specs for components. The bolts in the first sheet (in the 5 right columns) are further detailed in the second sheet.






There are plenty of videos on the interwebs to help guide you. The videos are not a substitute for the Factory Service Manuals, but can be helpful. Here is one:

[eclipse1]

I'm wondering if those pooping pebbles are just tiny ice chunks? I'll have to investigate that once I get the car back. as far as the PCV, get something from ebay or amazon (aftermarket) or get a good one from ecstuning or such?

[MongoMcG]

I'm wondering if those pooping pebbles are just tiny ice chunks? I'll have to investigate that once I get the car back. as far as the PCV, get something from ebay or amazon (aftermarket) or get a good one from ecstuning or such?

Audi Genuine or Hengst OEM is highly recommended for the PCV because the Amazon versions just don't hold up. The Hengst OEM is quite a savings over Genuine (approx $100 vs $210). Now we get into a bit of confusion. The 2011 originally came with a black top PCV. If the car went through a phase 1 oil consumption service the black top was replaced with a white (opaque) top.

If you can take a pic of what's in there now we can help you find the right part number. Include a legible shot of the part number on top of the current unit. The part number will begin with 06H103495 with the addition of one or two letters at the end. The original(s) that came on the car (or installed for the oil consumption update) have been updated and superseded by revised part numbers with different letters at the end, and that's what usually catches most cats ordering the wrong part number.

Black top vs white top:

[MongoMcG]

The water pump pulley bolt (the one in the car, not the one on the pump) is complicated. Luckily, the water pump belt that rides on that pulley is a long lasting part, and most of the time it is not replaced with the water pump. Here are some tips from my experience with the water pump: https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...1#post14776150

[MongoMcG]

And your killin' me with the timing chain. The peep hole plug on the A4 lower timing cover is accessible from the top with skinny arms, but don't be surprised if you drop the plug down onto the belly pan when you pop it out. Then stick your phone down there with the flash turned on and take pics until you get a clear shot of the chain tensioner. Share that pic here for advice. If you don't drop the plug onto the belly pan it's a 10 minute job. Add another 20 minutes if you need to remove the front-most belly pan to retrieve the plug (or your phone).

[eclipse1]

I asked the shop to check that for me and that was my primary reason for taking the car there and they're telling me it'll be another hour of labor to check that!!
I'll check I get the car back.

[eclipse1]

20230208_172852.jpg

Here's the PCV valve.
06H103495AK should work?

[old guy]

Correct.

[eclipse1]

Got the PCV valve and water pump replaced. Old water pump was broken on the corner where it typically breaks. It wasn't too bad to get that replaced. Now I'm moving on to replacing the upper timing chain cover gasket. I haven't been able to inspect the timing chain tensioner through that port yet. I can't get into the crevice to pry it out. After the PCV replacement, I drove a few miles and the check engine light didn't come on.
Any advise before I start taking the upper timing chain cover removed and gasket replaced? I only got the bigger gasket and not the center ring.

Thanks.

[eclipse1]

Gasket was replaced too. Had a fun time learning that I didn't secure one of the coolant hoses properly!
Went for a test drive and it all leaked out. Gladly was a quick 15 minute fix.
No check engine lights yet but EPC light is still coming on (ocassionally) and car chokes sometimes when moving from stationary position. The two codes that are persistently there now are P2187 and P0299.

[Theiceman]

So the shop called back with their diagnosis within 30 minutes after I dropped off the car!
Their diagnosis is:
*The PCV valve needs replaced
*The upper timing chain cover seals (3 seals) needs replaced to stop oil leak
*The water pump is leaking and needs replaced

I asked about timing chain and they said they can't tell for sure if that needs to be replaced.. said if it rattles and such, that's an indication that it might!

I already knew about the PCV and the seals.. wasn't much of a thorough diagnosis. I can change the PCV easily. I can try to attempt to get the waterpump as well. Any suggestions on which parts to go with? I don't want to put in the most expensive parts since it has such high mileage..
They also mentioned about carbon buildup and possible piston replacement but that's a very expensive repair so probably not worth it at this point.

Thoughts?

find another shop as they dont know shit about the e888 engine , they should have popped that timing cover and been ble to tell you immediately if it is done.

[MongoMcG]

If the turbocharger waste gate is fine (I have doubts) then the DV (diverter valve) might be at fault, or it could be both given the mileage. The diverter valve replacement is a bit of a pain when it is time to locate and loosen/install one of the three pan head 5mm (maybe 6mm) allen bolts that hold the DV in place. Easiest access for me was from below, but you're working blind for the top bolt. If you replace this part, the Pierburg OEM version or an Audi genuine part are recommended.

The waste gate is a different story. Some cats claim the clip available to tighten up the waste gate is a convenient temporary solution, depending on the severity of the looseness of the gate. Others have used heat to bend and manipulate the gate for a tighter seal; but this is also a temporary solution. How temporary? I'm not sure; others might chime in with their experiences.

The DV and waste gate, howver, are just a couple of many possible causes. From one of a few sites I visit for DTC information...

Potential Causes of P2187 DTC:

1. Faulty O2 sensor (front)
2. Faulty gas cap seal
3. Leaky or loose oil filler cap
4. Air leaking into the intake manifold downstream from the Mass Airflow sensor due to the manifold itself, vacuum hoses off or cracked, leaky MAP sensor, leak at turbo bypass or it's stuck open, power brake booster hose, or a leak in the EVAP system hoses.
5. Faulty MAP sensor
6. EVAP canister purge valve
7. Fuel injector leak
8. Fuel pressure regulator faulty
9. Leaks in the exhaust system
10. Faulty variable camshaft timing Faulty
11. ECM (engine management computer)
12. Faulty O2 preheater (front)
13. Clogged fuel filter Fuel pump wearing out and producing low pressure
14. Faulty mass air flow sensor

Potential Causes of P0299:

1. Intake (induction) air restriction or leak
2. Failed or damaged turbocharger (sticking, binding, etc., especially the waste gate)
3. Faulty boost/charge pressure sensor
4. Faulty N75 valve
5. Faulty wastegate bypass regulator valve (DV)

Read more at: https://www.obd-codes.com/p2187
Copyright OBD-Codes.com

[Theiceman]

let me tell you from experience .. if you strip the top bolt trying to get the DV out, save your self a ton of trouble , grab the dv and push it up firmly and snap it off... if you are undoing it you have a replacement anyway.
Once its smashed off you can get the bolt out easily with small vice grips.

ever seen such a perfect circle ?

[eclipse1]

Thank you. scanning again this morning, it seems 2187 went away and a new one popped up P0341.
It also seems like I'm slowly losing coolant again! I filled it up this morning and not sure if it's just adjusting or leaking as it has dropped from where it was this morning. I'll keep an eye on that.
I'll try to get to that timing belt port this weekend and see if I can get a picture. I think I just need something thin to pry into that. I'm also concerned if that lid gets bent, it may start leaking from there!
As far as the EPC light goes, any clue on why it might be showing up intermittently?

[MongoMcG]

P0341 can trigger a CEL, but I don't know if it would trigger an EPC. As for finding a cause, start with the wire harness for the camshaft position sensor. It's possibly shorting to ground (or just a bad connection).

Maybe the 2187 went away after some adaptation miles. It takes the computer a bit to learn and calibrate new hardware.

[eclipse1]

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...6#post14901666

I was reading this thread and feel like the symptoms match mine closely. Is it pretty involved to get the bridge removed and inspected? I just replaced the upper timing chain cover gasket! What else can I do to diagnose the EPC issue and P0341 code?

[StuckAntichris]

It is not hard to get the bridge removed and the upper timing cover gasket is reusable especially if you just replaced it.

Just remember that the bolt going into the exhaust cam is TTY (torque to yield) and will need to be replaced. It depends on which bolt size your camshaft takes but the M6 gets tightened to 8 Nm + 90 deg and the M8 gets tightened to 20Nm + 90 deg. The control valve in the intake camshaft is reverse-threaded as well and requires a special tool see here. You will not have to replace this after removing it. It gets tightened to 35 Nm. All of the other bolts securing the bridge to the head get tightened to 9 Nm.

Take caution when installing the bridge back on the engine. its a very precise fit and sometimes you need to wiggle the camshafts to get it to slip on. Once you get it started it should slide all the way home with very little effort. Do not force the bridge back on!

[eclipse1]

The other thing that I noticed in this car is, the engine temp rises fairly quickly compared to any other cars I've driven. I have another A4, which takes several minutes (maybe up to 5) for the temp gauge to go to the middle showing standard operating temperature.. but for this car, it's up there in a minute or under, even in a cold day! What could be causing that?
I used cheap oil last time I did an oil change..

[eclipse1]

How can I further diagnose the car stalling issue before I start taking the bridge out and apart? Car drives fine but will randomly choke and stall. Mostly on low speeds, then I have to start the car again and get going.