DS1 help

[OhioS6]

So I was contacting Sillyrabbit and was just wanting some help, currently stage 3 unitronic, will be switching over to DS1 with SRM TCU tune aswell, also switching to an E85 set up. I was told that if you leave DS1 plugged in it will automatically MAP switch depending on ethanol content and what not. Is this true?

[Marcothelab]

You'll need a flex fuel kit as well, SRM has one and I believe it is around $200.

[OhioS6]

I got the lpfp lines, upgrades pumps, ethanol sensors on the way, but DS1 will automatically select a MAP if i got from e85 to 93 the next day?

[MattyMarkey]

I got the lpfp lines, upgrades pumps, ethanol sensors on the way, but DS1 will automatically select a MAP if i got from e85 to 93 the next day?

No, it will not “automatically” change the stage map you are on - you use the cruise control stalk to change the stage.

Only thing I can think of what they were saying to you and a misunderstanding what was being said: whatever stage map you choose - based on your hardware modifications - the tune will automatically adjust that specific tune based on the ethanol content (aka no need to manually set it in DS1 GUI).

Like said, you need the ethanol sensor and kit, which sounds like you are well under way


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[OhioS6]

So a stage 3 e85 tune will adjust based on the E content, I.E. e50, e85 or whatever content? And when I choose to go back to 93 then i use the cruise control stalk to change back to the 93 MAP. But otherwise the E85 stage 3 will adjust based on E content?

[qcrazy]

People are going to go all semantics on you here, so I'll try and save you...

If you typically run 93, then you will install DS1 and run the 93 map switch. This will be your default tune.

Then if you want, you will install and wire up an ethanol sensor. This will get wired up to your OBDII port.

If you wire up your ethanol sensor to the OBDII port, and you leave the DS1 dongle hooked up to the OBDII port, DS1 will automatically sense your ethanol content and adjust your tune accordingly.

You will still be running the 93 tune. But as your ethanol content goes up, the tune will increase the boost (and timing) accordingly. It is a true flex fuel tune, and it is fantastic!

[MattyMarkey]

Hopefully this is making more sense.

Not to add to the potential confusion, but you will need to be cautious how much E you are running on a Stg3 build.

You should start at 25% ethanol in your tank (aka E25), log using DS2, and adjust based on what the logs show. You typically cannot run higher than E50 (50% ethanol) with RS turbo’s on your S6, but the logs will tell you more. You’ll need to mix E85 with 93.

You can send logs to DS via email to validate the health of the car, or post in the forum to help.


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[TexasDfwS4]

Great Explanation from qcrazy.

[OhioS6]

Man this is confusing lol so stage 3 93 tune will auto adjust for the E content when DS1 is plugged ? My cars pushing over 100k miles with over 40k passed stage 2 and probably 25-30k being RS turbos

[OhioS6]

I do plan on keeping the dongle plugged in, i do plan on plugging the sensor into the obd2 i just dont get why the 93 tune is the tune to use vs the e85 tune? Wouldnt it work the same way, adjust for E content? Which by the way im not actually sure what the content is near me but i do have a p3 gauge and the obd2 splitter and p3 E content reader has been ordered aswell

[qcrazy]

To you first post above...yes, it will auto adjust for E.

To your second post, there is no E85 map (tune) for DS1. DS1 adapts from another base tune. The reason this is done is because it allows one to run true flex fuel. If there was an E85 tune, the car would not know what to run when you didn't fill up with E.

I run a 91 map, because that is about all I can find locally. When I am driving around town I fill up with E, which last summer was running around E65. I then went on vacation with the car and I couldn't find any E. So I filled the car up with 91 and the car just kept on going...tune was automatic adjusted down a bit and off I went. Later on I found some E, topped it back up, and off I went. No need to switch from an E85 map to a gas map, DS1 does it for you.

Running a straight E85 tune sucks. I do that on my B9 S4. It works great, but then when I can't find E, I have to manually switch to a gas tune (91 in my case). On my B9, if I don't have my laptop with me I am screwed. In my C7, I don't even have to think about, I just gas up and go.

Finally, to Matty's point above, not all cars have the ability to run full E. Some cars will run out of fuel system capacity. DS1 recommends you slowly add E, and then log and verify fuel system capacity as you go. Try E25, then E50, etc. Once you confirm fuel system capability, then you are good to go. Many cars can go full E, but not all. You don't want to assume and then go lean and pop your engine. I am full Stage 4 and I can run full E, so it is possible. Some just need more fuel system improvements than others.

I hope this helps...

[OhioS6]

So whats stopping 2 identical c7 s6 from using a different E content? Stage 3 facts are hard to come by so does anyone know what an OTS s6 will run on a dyno, SRM told me they made 680wheel on a mustang dyno using E50, i know all dynos are different but is the ballpark number 650-700 wheel? Otherwise theres no real gains for me other than knock.

[MattyMarkey]

So whats stopping 2 identical c7 s6 from using a different E content? Stage 3 facts are hard to come by so does anyone know what an OTS s6 will run on a dyno, SRM told me they made 680wheel on a mustang dyno using E50, i know all dynos are different but is the ballpark number 650-700 wheel? Otherwise theres no real gains for me other than knock.

Engines aren’t 100% identical, but outside elements are likely the other main difference (DA)

I’d go with the rough numbers SRM gave you. If cleaner burning, cooler running, keeping knock at reliable/safe levels, and the potential to make more power, isn’t enough to help you make the switch to E85, than I dunno man. If you get a custom tune - DS1 makes remote custom tuning easy - you’ll make more than an OTS DS1 tune.

I’d run ethanol if it was near me in a heartbeat. One of the reasons why I still have RS7 turbos sitting in my house, waiting until I figure out what I’m actually going to do for cooling…


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[OhioS6]

I was looking for 700 wheel, but im also currently unitronic stage 3 and if it makes similar horsepower on e85 i dont see a significant benefit in spending what i spent to make the same power lol, thats the only reason im asking, i dont have wastegate or 4 bar map sensors

[MattyMarkey]

I was looking for 700 wheel, but im also currently unitronic stage 3 and if it makes similar horsepower on e85 i dont see a significant benefit in spending what i spent to make the same power lol, thats the only reason im asking, i dont have wastegate or 4 bar map sensors

Understood. I would personally be more concerned with real world numbers than dyno numbers (60-130mph, 1/4mile), but some people do chase whp numbers.

I have a feeling you’ll see the benefits of going E85


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[OhioS6]

What are the odds a car with less power has better times? If the car also has problems making boost up top or consecutive passes its having IAT issues, DS1 has the highest hp for a stage 3 tune, not to mention the benefits of ethanol?

[MattyMarkey]

What are the odds a car with less power has better times? If the car also has problems making boost up top or consecutive passes its having IAT issues, DS1 has the highest hp for a stage 3 tune, not to mention the benefits of ethanol?

You’re losing me here… Are you asking questions or answering them yourself? Peak HP is cool and all, but unless you utilize the full powerband, 60-130 or other real world numbers will expose the cars weakness, for the exact reasons you mention (IAT’s)

Ethanol makes more power and has much better cooling benefits than unleaded. It also has better tuning potential. Whether that is the same or more HP than you’re currently making on a tune that’s potentially squeezing out a few more HP than other OTS tunes, that’s for you to find out.

Seems like you already made the decision, so enjoy the upgrade and get some before and after data to inform your decision; not talking just dyno numbers. Might also help others too


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[THCarpenter]

Ohio, Q and Matty answered your questions.....can you be more clear as to what you are looking to have answered?

The DS1 will scale its maps based on E% in the tank, IF you have the dongle in, and you have your E% sensor wired into the canbus.

The this vs that is apples vs oranges to be totally frank.....everyone is different DA, spark plug gaps, fuel trims (e% based on winter blend), etc etc etc. so times will be vastly different.

I run a 11.39@121 C7.5 S6 Full Interior Stage 2 Bolt on (Intake/Inlets/Exhaust) with 255/35 DWS06+ at 10ft elevation and -1327ft DA.

If you are happy with your stage 3 with IE, then stick with it. You wont gain "Power" from swapping to DS1, without adding in the power adder mods, as well as the tables specific from the DS1 maps. You will however gain better data logging, real time support, more tuners, ability to flash at home, constant sensor management, bTres.....

but those are nice to haves for those that are building that way....it sounds like you are content with your setup, and swapping tunes wont net you your wants and desires without adding more parts, and going full custom tune.

[Botbasher]

What are the odds a car with less power has better times?

I had a 68 VW Beetle as a kid. 254hp NA 2.2L and I could spin it to 9k. I'd run anywhere, anytime. I'd always roast the guys with the massive 454 or SBC V-8s. They'd look down their noses and laugh at me... till they were looking at my taillights! They'd always have reasons they lost and complaints about air temps, cold tires, track prep... you name it.. they had every excuse. They had 2-3x the hp but I had the lower weight and the ability to get my lowly "bug" to hook up and go. It won almost every race I ever got in!

It's called power to weight ratio. Same reason that all those little Lotus & Caterham Super 7's were banned from racing (multiple times!) after making everyone else look like they were stuck in the mud! https://www.carpages.co.uk/caterham/...n_21_04_03.asp

My prime example (aside from being an amazing bit of driving! Watch at 2:09!!). The Super 7, despite having almost 1/2 the power, no turbos and crap for aerodynamics... manages not only to keep up, but take the lead and hold it! Why?? Because it weighs over 400kg (~800lbs) less! The aero and higher Hp allow the Porsche to reel him in in the long straights, but the acceleration out of the turns keeps him ahead!

Listen to him in the straights... he's on the limiter as the Porsche pulls around. https://youtu.be/sxwRgSZiKTk

Porsche Spec: https://www.excellence-mag.com/resources/specs/79

Caterham Spec: https://www.ultimatespecs.com/car-sp...ight-R500.html

Yes... you read that right. A little 230hp 2L (Crank) clicks off a 3.4sec 0-60... where our 450hp 4.0 TT V8 can barely manage to break into the 4sec regularly. We weigh better than 1k kg more.

Car weights could vary several hundred lbs, so a similar car with less power but having less weight could, all other variables accounted for, beat a higher power car that weighs more!

Yes... Turbos, IATs, Fuel, overall motor health and all sorts of other things effect times and power. Dyno is only one way to see power... usually under controlled and ideal conditions and only regarding the motor and driveline. Usable real world power is what tells the real story. 1000hp on paper/dyno doesn't always equate to 1000hp worth of performance on the street.

Cheers,

KS

[Audibellybutton]

This thread gave me a headache to read lmao. The clearest and most accurate answers can be found above ^

not sure where the confusion is

[OhioS6]

So the original post question has been answered, but then mentioned the 60-130 and given a s6 is an s6 two s6’s make completely different powers one should obviously be faster, correct? A stage 3 on 93 vs a stage 3 on e50 and that goes hand in hand with horsepower, id understand if i was comparing two different stage 3 93 tunes

[MattyMarkey]

So the original post question has been answered, but then mentioned the 60-130 and given a s6 is an s6 two s6’s make completely different powers one should obviously be faster, correct? A stage 3 on 93 vs a stage 3 on e50 and that goes hand in hand with horsepower, id understand if i was comparing two different stage 3 93 tunes

Minus the fact the tuner is different… but yes, same tuner software, exact same S6, Stage 3, 93 vs e50, same DA, same condition, the e50 car will produce more power and presumably be faster in the real world


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[OhioS6]

👍 thanks

[Audibellybutton]

in the end it all depends on the tune. If you are running a high octane fuel like e85 you have a bigger threshold of how much boost and timing your car can handle. So it depends on the tune, condition of the car, DA, IAT and a lot of factors. Also keep in mind OTS maps are going to be made for a broad spectrum of cars to run safely. Its not necessarily catered to get the max HP out of your specific build. Unless you get a custom tune. Throwing e85 into a regular pump gas tune will give you slight benefits such as knock resistance which = more timing advance. But you will only get as much boost/timing as your tuner stored away for you in your OTS map. To take full advantage of high octane fuel like e85 you gotta crank up the boost/timing. Hope that makes sense. Basically what other people have said.

I dont knock you at all for inquiring, I didn't know any of this when i started modding cars either. It just seemed like you weren't really accepting the responses some people were giving but yeah. it should all make sense now

[rlny]

Could someone just run meth instead or E and get the same results?


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[MattyMarkey]

Could someone just run meth instead or E and get the same results?


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Similar results. Similar benefits. Few more cons to Meth, but people are working on better fail safes for our platform. People have also gone stupid fast with just Meth. Going Meth does cost quite a bit more just for the set-up

[THCarpenter]

Meth is a whole other option, and requires its own set of failsafes.

with meth, if you are requiring it for octane management, you run into the issue, if you are always in it, with no refill, you will NOT have that safety and required octane, and will be subject to detonation and misfires, and the higher possibility of grenade your engine

so if you run Meth, or WMI (water Meth Injection) for Octane, then you need to maintain that octane. If you run WMI for IAT (Intake Air Temp) control with say a 80:20 mix of Water:Methanol you are not relying on octane, but giving the engine an option to run healthier without pulling timing at the risk of detonation

[Audibellybutton]

Could someone just run meth instead or E and get the same results?


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Theoretically yes it could provide the same effects of octane increase and also it will drop IAT

The issue you will have to worry about with meth is your location, and how much you are spraying and whether or not it is getting adequate atomization to all of the cylinders. Ive seen people run their nozzles at a lot of different places on this engine. I think the best would be a 8 nozzle port injection solution for the most consistent atomization to each cylinder, however we don't have any bolt on solutions for that. Next best would be 2 nozzles in each side of the intake manifold. That is a common and effective one too. you can definitely run high octane maps on meth with pump gas


Meth has a lot of benefits if ran properly but I think e85 and meth combined is even better.

E85 alone is easier to deal with once you get all the supporting mods, just pretty much fill up with the desired E content and keep it pushing. With meth you got another resevoir to worry about. I always use the windshield washer resevoir since it has a level sensor already. But if you want a bigger tank you would need to find a good place for it and run the lines and make sure it has a level sensor that you can check easily

[Audibellybutton]

[QUOTE=Audibellybutton;14883074]Theoretically yes it could provide the same effects of octane increase and also it will drop IAT

The issue you will have to worry about with meth is your location, and how much you are spraying and whether or not it is getting adequate atomization to all of the cylinders. Ive seen people run their nozzles at a lot of different places on this engine. I think the best would be a 8 nozzle port injection solution for the most consistent atomization to each cylinder, however we don't have any bolt on solutions for that. Next best would be 2 nozzles in each side of the intake manifold. That is a common and effective one too. you can definitely run high octane maps on meth with pump gas


Meth has a lot of benefits if ran properly but I think e85 and meth combined is even better.

E85 alone is easier to deal with once you get all the supporting mods, just pretty much fill up with the desired E content and keep it pushing. With meth you got another resevoir to worry about. I always use the windshield washer resevoir since it has a level sensor already. But if you want a bigger tank you would need to find a good place for it and run the lines and make sure it has a level sensor that you can check easily.

in terms of cost, depending on what kit you go with generally adding a meth kit with 2 nozzles is cheaper than the upgrades you need to run full E if you're stage 3. If you are on stock turbos running E will be cheaper

[OhioS6]

I knew all the benefits about running ethanol however with the OTS tune i wouldnt want to spend 3.5k to get DS1 with all the supporting mods to make the same power on E85/blend as i do on my Unitronic tune, considering my car runs fine on 93. Id primarily want the tune for its horsepower gains first, and its knock resistance second

[John@DEADBEEF_DynoSp]

IF you get the same performance on 93 and E85 with all other things being equal (except fuel system upgrades where required to flow enough of said E85) on an engine as knock and charge temperature limited as this, there is something very wrong. Most of the time it is a fuel system limit because the fuel system upgrades were not fitted or the correct map being chosen, flawed comparison method or unsafe tuning on 93 (allowing it to knock and running inadequate turbos too hard). The gains are usually obvious and pleasing otherwise. It is like tuning a different engine.

[OhioS6]

Thanks John

[MattyMarkey]

Thanks John

Hopefully you are able to read into the subtleness of what this man says, especially when you are trying to compare tunes.

"flawed comparison method or unsafe tuning on 93 (allowing it to knock and running inadequate turbos too hard)" - read that carefully, and think about wanting to understand more about the Unitronic tune, or any tune for that matter.

[OhioS6]

There isnt a whole lot of info on tunes though, ive read that DS1 doesnt create the power the others do but thats because theyre safe tunes. Ive been running Unitronic since i bought the car at stage 2 and its been driven 40k miles since went stage 3 at approx 75k and now im at 100k. Whats considered inadequate turbos? Are we referring to brands or the turbo size? As far as im concerned theres RS, S, TS1, TS2, SRM +4 atleast those are the biggest ones

[OhioS6]

Not particularly comparing tunes because theres really only one tune you can get to run ethanol on RS turbos, and that is DS1 unless im not searching the web hard enough, by no means am i comparing gains between tunes, im expecting a gain going from 93 to ethanol content, not just the added benefits of running ethanol

[THCarpenter]

HP numbers aside

What's your end goal for the car.

That's the question you need to be asking
What fuel will be your primary
Will you be grudge running 1/4's
Only set up to go 1/8
1/2 mile run ours
Highway grudge

Do you want low grunt or top speed?

How are you set up suspension?

Will this track, will you auto X, are you doing any HPDE

[OhioS6]

More of a highway/roll racing car, this car is a daily, some kind of ethanol blend will be my primary fuel, 700 wheel is my goal, my suspensions stock but lowered with vcds, sitting on 20x10 wheels in all 4 corners

[THCarpenter]

I would look at RS7 cartridge Ball Bearing Turbos....many are floating around, even some Chy-Na as your baseline scrollyboys....there are a few threads here that cover what size turbos that will get you there.
DS1 to get you everything we listed above
LP Fuel Lines
Eth Sensor
HPFP Pistons

Rear Sway Bar and Endlinks
Poly Inserts or Spherical Bushings in the front LCA and Thrust Arm

[MattyMarkey]

There isnt a whole lot of info on tunes though…. Whats considered inadequate turbos?

Exactly, there isn’t. Very small niche for companies that give you more information about their tunes, the ability to learn more about the tune itself, and tune yourself to the level you are comfortable with. This is not saying they are bad or tunes. These are just aspects to think about when comparing tunes and their differing Hp/tq numbers.

Inadequate turbos are those that are not designed to, and have shown not to be able to, handle increased power/boost levels by spinning to higher RPMs than the materials can handle. Aka stock cast S6/S7 turbos (threads on catastrophic overspin fatigue).

As John mentioned, tunes differ with how much boost is increased, obviously creating higher-Hp figures than others.


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[OhioS6]

Im simply not looking for the highest horsepower between tunes considering there is only one tune, as far as i know that makes a ethanol content tune on RS turbos my goal is obviously reliability first be cause its a daily driver, but i do have a horsepower goal, and i dont meet it id like to find a way to do so