K04 Hardware Kit and Software Compatibility

[B8Buckeye]

I am moving toward a K04 setup for by 2011 Avant. I currently have a United Motorsports Stage 2 tune. UM charges only $200 to upgrade to their K04 file, so it seems I could get into a K04 for pretty a reasonable cost - $1500 for a K04 kit, $700 for FMIC and $300 for CAI. $2700 plus install labor for a K04 with softwarre. All good so far...

When I spoke with a UM representative, they advised me to get a "real" Borg Warner K04 and specifically mentioned NOT going with a hybrid or a kit from CTS or HPA.

When I spoke with a tuner I've worked with in the past, they cautioned against the same kits and recommended APR or Unitronic. They also mentioned Integrated Engineering. The APR and Unitronic kits are sold with each manufacturer's software which I don't necessarily want or need. Total for the APR/Uni kits are about $3200-3500 or a $1700-2000 difference over the CTS kit and that's before the cost of the FMIC, CAI and install labor.


I'm not married to the UM software, but like the idea of $200 to upgrade to K04. What do you guys recommend as the best path to a reliable K04 upgrade path? Thanks!

[apeck240]

Off the shelf pre-made tunes were developed for a specific version of "k04" most of the time. Use what the tuner tuned with, whatever that happens to be

[B8Buckeye]

Off the shelf pre-made tunes were developed for a specific version of "k04" most of the time. Use what the tuner tuned with, whatever that happens to be

The tuner (United Motorsports) said to use a "real" Borg Warner K04. Other than APR and Unitronic (who I seems won't sell their kits without the software), I don't know of where to get a "real" BW K04.


I'm okay with switching tuners if needed but would prefer not to if possible. The "easy" route is simply leaving UM behind and buying the APR or Unitronic kits with their software. If there is a way to avoid that additional expense, I would prefer that.

[jjvwg]

If I were you I would stick with UM. They have a long standing history and have tuned a bunch of 2.0T’s of varying generations. Plus if won’t be some OTS tune like other tuners. I would recommend asking them on where they suggest purchasing a BW unit. They are likely suggesting it due to the reliability of a BW unit vs a modified hybrid unit or Chinese knockoff.


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[B8Buckeye]

If I were you I would stick with UM. They have a long standing history and have tuned a bunch of 2.0T’s of varying generations. Plus if won’t be some OTS tune like other tuners. I would recommend asking them on where they suggest purchasing a BW unit. They are likely suggesting it due to the reliability of a BW unit vs a modified hybrid unit or Chinese knockoff.


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Makes sense. Thanks.

Unfortunately, I spoke with UM about where to source the BW K04, and they were zero help. I called one of the UM dealers listed on their page and asked what kit they use with UM tunes for this platform. They told me they always use CTS, have done a lot of them, and that Fred (at UM) has no issues with CTS kits. Not exactly consistent info.

[k.sigota]

CTS used to sell a real BW kit. They no longer do.

You can find them used if you shop and wait. APR is a BW as well.

IIRC you used to be able to get the unitronic without the tune, but I honestly don't remember if they are hybrids or not. Website specifically states "Unitronic modified OEM Borg Warner K04-0064 Turbocharger"

[jjvwg]

I see you’re in Denver. I would reach out to Bluewater performance as they are a UM dealer and see if they could help you source one or what the deal is with the “needing to tune a BW K04”. I know they’ve tuned others/hybrids in the past but maybe they’ve changed their stance due to issues they’ve come across.


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[B8Buckeye]

I see you’re in Denver. I would reach out to Bluewater performance as they are a UM dealer and see if they could help you source one or what the deal is with the “needing to tune a BW K04”. I know they’ve tuned others/hybrids in the past but maybe they’ve changed their stance due to issues they’ve come across.


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I spoke with Bluewater. They recommended APR or Uni. Unfortunately, neither sells their kit without software.

Rock, meet Hard Place.

[JLAllroad]

I am moving toward a K04 setup for by 2011 Avant. I currently have a United Motorsports Stage 2 tune. UM charges only $200 to upgrade to their K04 file, so it seems I could get into a K04 for pretty a reasonable cost - $1500 for a K04 kit, $700 for FMIC and $300 for CAI. $2700 plus install labor for a K04 with softwarre. All good so far...

A couple notes,

You don’t need a CAI, more noise than power for what is essentially a cash grab item. Just add a high flow panel filter and turbo inlet pipe and you’re good for close to 400whp, well beyond the KO4s capabilities.

You can get a Rev9 intercooler for under $500, or IE or Wagner if you want to spend more, and a relatively easy DIY install.

Ideally, you would probably want to run a high flow catalyst, APR does work with the stock catalyst and is emissions legal…..this means that you would get a CEL for catalyst efficiency if you ran your HFC with APR.

I’ve seen plenty of people run the CTS KO4 with APR, IE, Etc, just be prepared to potentially need to do some logging and tweak the wastegate preload to play nice with an OTS tune.

The question with cars of this generation are, is it burning oil, has the timing been done, any other deferred maintenance?


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[Grouch]

I went with APR kit with their tune and regretted it. Had bunch of issues with zero support. Only good thing about their kit was that it was still being built by BW. Who knows about now but my kit took awhile because of BW national back-order.

As for CAI, I had one and I swapped back to stock with a Afe 5R filter. My butt dyno says my car runs even better than when I had my intake. It sounded cool, but I don't miss it.

[B8Buckeye]

A couple notes,

You don’t need a CAI, more noise than power for what is essentially a cash grab item. Just add a high flow panel filter and turbo inlet pipe and you’re good for close to 400whp, well beyond the KO4s capabilities.

You can get a Rev9 intercooler for under $500, or IE or Wagner if you want to spend more, and a relatively easy DIY install.

Ideally, you would probably want to run a high flow catalyst, APR does work with the stock catalyst and is emissions legal…..this means that you would get a CEL for catalyst efficiency if you ran your HFC with APR.

I’ve seen plenty of people run the CTS KO4 with APR, IE, Etc, just be prepared to potentially need to do some logging and tweak the wastegate preload to play nice with an OTS tune.

The question with cars of this generation are, is it burning oil, has the timing been done, any other deferred maintenance?


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Thanks for the reply - I likely will not do a CAI. I had one on a tuned GTI once but none of my other cars.

Not sure which direction I'll go with FMIC. Whichever one I choose, I don't want to have to cut/modify the bumper to make it fit. It's worth a few extra dollars to me to have good fitment.

I have the IE DP/HFC, so I'm good there. I just need to make sure the turbo kit mates well with that DP/HFC combo.

I'm open to CTS if (once properly tuned) it is a reliable, long-term solution. I'd rather buy once and pay a bit more than have to buy twice because I thought I was getting a deal.

Oil burning isn't an issue. Timing belt and other maintenance are all being completed in the next month. I'm also adding the coils in my signature along with changing out all of the front control arms, bushings and sway links.

I love the B8 (and B8.5) look and will likely keep this Avant for awhile - especially if the K04 satiates the mod bug for a bit. Speaking of mod bug, I'm debating on doing the B8.5 front-end conversion. Someone talk me out of it.

[B8Buckeye]

I went with APR kit with their tune and regretted it. Had bunch of issues with zero support. Only good thing about their kit was that it was still being built by BW. Who knows about now but my kit took awhile because of BW national back-order.

As for CAI, I had one and I swapped back to stock with a Afe 5R filter. My butt dyno says my car runs even better than when I had my intake. It sounded cool, but I don't miss it.

I've had APR tunes on multiple cars, but I don't have any real loyalty to them. I just want a kit that works and is reasonably priced. That definitely seems like too much to ask.

I'll look into that filter. Thanks for the recommendation.

[beatsageo]

just to add cannon fodder, I used a CTS KO4 with a eurodyne KO4 base tune briefly and it was just fine on its own. There was of course lots of room for optimization but it works and adds smiles out of the gate.

[Nano909]

The only real BW K04's were sold by CTS, you wont find a new one for sale. You'll have to find a used one and they're selling for close to what they costed new. Still worth it.

If you want a good turbo that's proven to be decent over the years, you can get either a CTS 1070r or 1070x. The 1070x is pretty powerful and an OTS tune would be a waste for it.

I recommend buying the 1070x and getting a custom tune by WPT. If not then you can run a 1070r and get an IE K04 tune. The IE tune isn't the fastest tune but that tune won't blow your car up.

Buy a Rev9 intercooler, they're less than $500 and they keep temps really low. You can buy it on Amazon.

[B8Buckeye]

just to add cannon fodder, I used a CTS KO4 with a eurodyne KO4 base tune briefly and it was just fine on its own. There was of course lots of room for optimization but it works and adds smiles out of the gate.

Did you have any other hardware mods - DP/HFC, exhaust, FMIC, CAI, etc.?

I'm leaning toward just getting the CTS K04, the UM K04 file upgrade & FMIC and calling it a day. If I need to address the tune with the CTS turbo, I will.

[B8Buckeye]

The only real BW K04's were sold by CTS, you wont find a new one for sale. You'll have to find a used one and they're selling for close to what they costed new. Still worth it.

If you want a good turbo that's proven to be decent over the years, you can get either a CTS 1070r or 1070x. The 1070x is pretty powerful and an OTS tune would be a waste for it.

I recommend buying the 1070x and getting a custom tune by WPT. If not then you can run a 1070r and get an IE K04 tune. The IE tune isn't the fastest tune but that tune won't blow your car up.

Buy a Rev9 intercooler, they're less than $500 and they keep temps really low. You can buy it on Amazon.

Thanks for the reply. I'm very likely going to get the 1070r version of the K04 from CTS and stay with United Motorsports upgrading to their K04 file for $200. I don't need the fastest. I just want the same drivability with more middle and top end.

Do you know if (and how much) cutting of the bumper cover is needed to install the Rev9 FMIC?

[Jason11213]

Thanks for the reply. I'm very likely going to get the 1070r version of the K04 from CTS and stay with United Motorsports upgrading to their K04 file for $200. I don't need the fastest. I just want the same drivability with more middle and top end.

Do you know if (and how much) cutting of the bumper cover is needed to install the Rev9 FMIC?

I’ve had the 1070–R with an OTS tune from Unitronic and currently running the 1070-X with a custom tune from WPT. As the only one (to my knowledge) who has had both the 1070-R and 1070-X, I would HIGHLY recommend the 1070-X. Just my two cents.

[B8Buckeye]

I’ve had the 1070–R with an OTS tune from Unitronic and currently running the 1070-X with a custom tune from WPT. As the only one (to my knowledge) who has had both the 1070-R and 1070-X, I would HIGHLY recommend the 1070-X. Just my two cents.

What was the process of getting tuned by Ward? Final cost for the file? Do you have upgraded or stock internals?

I'm not sure I want to get into doing more extensive custom tune situation. Having said that, how would you compare the low end/turbo lag of the X vs the R? Thanks.

[Nano909]

Do you know if (and how much) cutting of the bumper cover is needed to install the Rev9 FMIC?

Literally no cutting.

[Jason11213]

What was the process of getting tuned by Ward? Final cost for the file? Do you have upgraded or stock internals?

I'm not sure I want to get into doing more extensive custom tune situation. Having said that, how would you compare the low end/turbo lag of the X vs the R? Thanks.

The OTS tune by Unitronic couldn’t handle the amount of boost the 1070-X had. I kept getting throttle cut due to overboosting. I had two routes I could’ve gone: adjust the wastegate on the turbo to try and make it work with the Unitronic tune or just go with a custom tune.

Turbo lag is literally LESS on the 1070-X than on the 1070-R. Boost crossover occurs between 2500-3000 rpms on both turbos but the X does it a little faster. You’d have to go through my old CTS 1070-X thread but all of the logs are there. As far as price, I won’t comment on that. Just know he does good work and there are few (or none to my knowledge) tuners out there that have tuned the 1070-X.

I’m running stock internals. Unitronic HFC, Unitronic Intercooler, Snow Performance stage 2.5 spraying 50/50 water meth at the throttle body. I only went with the meth kit because e85 is non-existent within a 1 hour drive of where I live. Which is absurd to me because I live in a city with a population >1MM people. But if I drove to the middle of nowhere 1 hour away I could get e85.

Looking at your mod list in your signature, I wouldn’t cheap out on this. You’ve already sunk a lot into your build. This will literally be the most enjoyable mod you do

[B8Buckeye]

Literally no cutting.

Great to hear. Thanks

[B8Buckeye]

The OTS tune by Unitronic couldn’t handle the amount of boost the 1070-X had. I kept getting throttle cut due to overboosting. I had two routes I could’ve gone: adjust the wastegate on the turbo to try and make it work with the Unitronic tune or just go with a custom tune.

Turbo lag is literally LESS on the 1070-X than on the 1070-R. Boost crossover occurs between 2500-3000 rpms on both turbos but the X does it a little faster. You’d have to go through my old CTS 1070-X thread but all of the logs are there. As far as price, I won’t comment on that. Just know he does good work and there are few (or none to my knowledge) tuners out there that have tuned the 1070-X.

I’m running stock internals. Unitronic HFC, Unitronic Intercooler, Snow Performance stage 2.5 spraying 50/50 water meth at the throttle body. I only went with the meth kit because e85 is non-existent within a 1 hour drive of where I live. Which is absurd to me because I live in a city with a population >1MM people. But if I drove to the middle of nowhere 1 hour away I could get e85.

Looking at your mod list in your signature, I wouldn’t cheap out on this. You’ve already sunk a lot into your build. This will literally be the most enjoyable mod you do

Thanks for the further detail. Less lag is very appealing.

How much logging did you have to do to get it dialed in? That's the part I want to avoid if possible. I understand the limitations of OTS and advantages of custom, but I just don't have the time to devote to getting things completely dialed in. I also am not concerned about wringing an extra 5hp out of a set up. I'd much rather have a bulletproof set up even if it's 20-30hp under what it could be with advanced logging and tuning.

As far as pricing for the WPT tune, feel free to PM me with a ballpark number if you want.

I really have 4 basic options here - all of which will include similar additional costs for buying FMIC and paying labor for the installs:

1. CTS 1070R ($1500) with OTS K04 tune from UM ($200 upgrade over my current Stage 2 tune) = $1700 for 300-330 HP/TQ
2. CTS 1070X ($2000) with OTS K04 tune from UM ($200 upgrade over my current Stage 2 tune) and some adjusting of the wastegate = $2200 for 300-330 HP/TQ
3. CTS 1070X ($2000) with WPT custom tune ($????) = $2000+++ for 370-400 HP/TQ
4. APR or Unitronics kit with their software ($3200-3500) = $3200-3500 for 300-330 HP/TQ

Options 1 and 3 seem the most viable. Option 1 is the "bulletproof" scenario where I don't optimize the power. Option 3 is solid because it's likely similar in price to APR/Unitronics for an additional 50+ HP/TQ. I guess it will all come down to how involved I would have to be in working with Ward. I'll give them a call to discuss.

Thanks again.

[Jason11213]

Thanks for the further detail. Less lag is very appealing.

How much logging did you have to do to get it dialed in? That's the part I want to avoid if possible. I understand the limitations of OTS and advantages of custom, but I just don't have the time to devote to getting things completely dialed in. I also am not concerned about wringing an extra 5hp out of a set up. I'd much rather have a bulletproof set up even if it's 20-30hp under what it could be with advanced logging and tuning.

As far as pricing for the WPT tune, feel free to PM me with a ballpark number if you want.

I really have 4 basic options here - all of which will include similar additional costs for buying FMIC and paying labor for the installs:

1. CTS 1070R ($1500) with OTS K04 tune from UM ($200 upgrade over my current Stage 2 tune) = $1700 for 300-330 HP/TQ
2. CTS 1070X ($2000) with OTS K04 tune from UM ($200 upgrade over my current Stage 2 tune) and some adjusting of the wastegate = $2200 for 300-330 HP/TQ
3. CTS 1070X ($2000) with WPT custom tune ($????) = $2000+++ for 370-400 HP/TQ
4. APR or Unitronics kit with their software ($3200-3500) = $3200-3500 for 300-330 HP/TQ

Options 1 and 3 seem the most viable. Option 1 is the "bulletproof" scenario where I don't optimize the power. Option 3 is solid because it's likely similar in price to APR/Unitronics for an additional 50+ HP/TQ. I guess it will all come down to how involved I would have to be in working with Ward. I'll give them a call to discuss.

Thanks again.

I can’t imagine there is much logging required now. I was the “Guinea pig” with WPT on the 1070-X so I would imagine the “base” file is already pretty much dialed in but reach out to Tyler at WPT.

It’s your call on which route you want to go but once you have that mod bug you’ll always be looking for more powah. No matter what you think you’ll be happy with now. From a cost perspective you would save a bit of scratch going with the 1070-R and UMs tune but do you think you’ll be looking for that extra 25-50hp in one year? If so, you’re better off going with the X now.

[B8Buckeye]

I can’t imagine there is much logging required now. I was the “Guinea pig” with WPT on the 1070-X so I would imagine the “base” file is already pretty much dialed in but reach out to Tyler at WPT.

It’s your call on which route you want to go but once you have that mod bug you’ll always be looking for more powah. No matter what you think you’ll be happy with now. From a cost perspective you would save a bit of scratch going with the 1070-R and UMs tune but do you think you’ll be looking for that extra 25-50hp in one year? If so, you’re better off going with the X now.

Simplest answer: if the CTS 1070-X with WPT tune is in the same price range as the APR/Uni K04 kits with their OTS tune, I'll go the 1070-X/WPT route provided that WPT "base tune" is pretty dialed in. I have a message into Tyler via FB.

[beatsageo]

Did you have any other hardware mods - DP/HFC, exhaust, FMIC, CAI, etc.?

I'm leaning toward just getting the CTS K04, the UM K04 file upgrade & FMIC and calling it a day. If I need to address the tune with the CTS turbo, I will.

I had a HFC and 3" exhaust. Stock intake tract.