Dual Catch Can Experiment…couldn’t resist.

[SNice]

…a little background:

I’ve been wondering about a dual catch can setup for our cars for a while. I’ve asked many questions, consulted many threads, checked other forums and platforms,etc. While I found nothing Audi B8/8.5 related, I found some promising info on VW, subaru and Miata forums.

For our cars, I found a lot of A4’s running the traditional catch can/pcv replacement setup. There are many threads detailing issues with this setup and not many positive results.

A promising setup was the ECS catch can setup installed without the pcv block off cap. Without the block off installed, the pcv retains 100% functionality and the catch can (in theory) catches oil particles before they enter the charge pipe/turbo/intercooler/intake. Great! But this only occurs while the car is actively boosting.

During normal driving, the PCV is doing more work on its “backside” - the side that vents directly into the intake. This is where a dual catch can setup could be beneficial - adding an oil Catcher on the back side. That is what I have achieved (hopefully).

Why am I doing this?
To fill up the engine bay! Just kidding. I checked both ports on my PCV and I had oil dripping from both. In other words, I’ve got oil going through my turbo and into my intercooler. I’ve also got oil going directly into my intake (backside pcv). There were also a few drops of oil in my intercooler piping. See pics - you can see the oil at the pcv breater connection points.

My goal is to have the cleanest charge air as possible as I am in the process of installing a Water-meth kit. I do not want oil vapor taking up space and contaminating my charge air! I am also planning to install an EFR turbo and I do not want oil vapor passing through it. The oil vapor could also reduce the efficiency of my intercooler.

So in short - I hope to catch as much oil vapor as possible before it enters my charge air stream. The catch cans are simply in line filters to the PCV breather pipes - they are supplementary. The PCV retains 100% functionality. My setup has no added check valves - the air can move in both directions.

I will regularly check both cans and will report back on this thread with my findings. I hope to catch nothing but oil. Interested to see if I start collecting water vapor too. It must be noted that any oil that I catch would have been on its way to the combustion chamber. Perhaps my tail pipes will stay cleaner longer!!! Stay tuned. Looking forward to getting some answers based on reality. Let the experiment begin!!!

One final note - I had the ESC kit and had to piece together the catch can setup for the back side. I wanted matched cans so I purchased a second ecs catch can. I would have saved A LOT of money if I had used generic catch cans.

IMG_9320.jpg
IMG_9319.jpg
IMG_9318.jpg
IMG_9317.jpg

These are the connectors I had to piece together:
IMG_9314.jpg

These are the stock breather connectors that had to be replaced (on the back side PCV).
IMG_9327.jpg


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[bb-tt]

…a little background:

I’ve been wondering about a dual catch can setup for our cars for a while. I’ve asked many questions, consulted many threads, checked other forums and platforms,etc. While I found nothing Audi B8/8.5 related, I found some promising info on VW, subaru and Miata forums.

For our cars, I found a lot of A4’s running the traditional catch can/pcv replacement setup. There are many threads detailing issues with this setup and not many positive results.

A promising setup was the ECS catch can setup installed without the pcv block off cap. Without the block off installed, the pcv retains 100% functionality and the catch can (in theory) catches oil particles before they enter the charge pipe/turbo/intercooler/intake. Great! But this only occurs while the car is actively boosting.

During normal driving, the PCV is doing more work on its “backside” - the side that vents directly into the intake. This is where a dual catch can setup could be beneficial - adding an oil Catcher on the back side. That is what I have achieved (hopefully).

Why am I doing this?
To fill up the engine bay! Just kidding. I checked both ports on my PCV and I had oil dripping from both. In other words, I’ve got oil going through my turbo and into my intercooler. I’ve also got oil going directly into my intake (backside pcv). There were also a few drops of oil in my intercooler piping. See pics - you can see the oil at the pcv breater connection points.

My goal is to have the cleanest charge air as possible as I am in the process of installing a Water-meth kit. I do not want oil vapor taking up space and contaminating my charge air! I am also planning to install an EFR turbo and I do not want oil vapor passing through it. The oil vapor could also reduce the efficiency of my intercooler.

So in short - I hope to catch as much oil vapor as possible before it enters my charge air stream. The catch cans are simply in line filters to the PCV breather pipes - they are supplementary. The PCV retains 100% functionality. My setup has no added check valves - the air can move in both directions.

I will regularly check both cans and will report back on this thread with my findings. I hope to catch nothing but oil. Interested to see if I start collecting water vapor too. It must be noted that any oil that I catch would have been on its way to the combustion chamber. Perhaps my tail pipes will stay cleaner longer!!! Stay tuned. Looking forward to getting some answers based on reality. Let the experiment begin!!!

One final note - I had the ESC kit and had to piece together the catch can setup for the back side. I wanted matched cans so I purchased a second ecs catch can. I would have saved A LOT of money if I had used generic catch cans.

IMG_9320.jpg
IMG_9319.jpg
IMG_9318.jpg
IMG_9317.jpg

These are the connectors I had to piece together:
IMG_9314.jpg

These are the stock breather connectors that had to be replaced (on the back side PCV).
IMG_9327.jpg


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There are a couple threads where old guy, smack, myself, and few others have discussed this at length to the point of drawing multiple ways to connect with checkvalves and single vs double can. The highest issue which I can't tell if you addressed is the air flows both ways on the tip side. At idle fresh air is sucked in through that side.

[SNice]

There are a couple threads where old guy, smack, myself, and few others have discussed this at length to the point of drawing multiple ways to connect with checkvalves and single vs double can. The highest issue which I can't tell if you addressed is the air flows both ways on the tip side. At idle fresh air is sucked in through that side.

Yes! That was a great thread and a great read!
I have no check valves whatsoever so the air flows however it would in the stock setup. There are no check valves on the stock breather tubes.

At idle - the pcv retains its normal vacuum. Checking the dipstick on the tip side does nothing. However, checking the dipstick on the second catch can (backside) has the same effect as removing the oil cap - suction and rough running.

So everything should operate as normal just catching any oil that gets by the PCV. Everything is closed - my catch cans are not vented.


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[bb-tt]

Yes! That was a great thread and a great read!
I have no check valves whatsoever so the air flows however it would in the stock setup. There are no check valves on the stock breather tubes.

At idle - the pcv retains its normal vacuum. Checking the dipstick on the tip side does nothing. However, checking the dipstick on the second catch can (backside) has the same effect as removing the oil cap - suction and rough running.

So everything should operate as normal just catching any oil that gets by the PCV. Everything is closed - my catch cans are not vented.


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So the catch can is bi directional? At idle pulling the dipstick on tip side it should be sucking air back towards the pcv. When we originally looked at it only arrington??? Made a bidirection catch can. The thing that bothered me about just have a free flowing can is the potential for condensation as the oil and vapor cools and then sucking that back into the crank case

[SNice]

So the catch can is bi directional? At idle pulling the dipstick on tip side it should be sucking air back towards the pcv. When we originally looked at it only arrington??? Made a bidirection catch can. The thing that bothered me about just have a free flowing can is the potential for condensation as the oil and vapor cools and then sucking that back into the crank case

I think I understand what you are referring to. I remember coming across bidirectional - will need to look at it again. In my mind - ith a single catch can - there would definitely need to be check valves as the air is flowing different depending on the boost condition. I’ve got one catch can per side. The catch cans are completely independent of each other. Air goes in, goes through the baffle and comes out clean (hopefully) but there’s nothing to stop it from going in the opposite direction outside of the PCV. The catch cans (as I am using them) are simply extensions of the breather tubes.

https://youtu.be/-3Oz0lraPAw


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[JLAllroad]

I think I understand what you are referring to. I remember coming across bidirectional - will need to look at it again. In my mind - ith a single catch can - there would definitely need to be check valves as the air is flowing different depending on the boost condition. I’ve got one catch can per side. The catch cans are completely independent of each other. Air goes in, goes through the baffle and comes out clean (hopefully) but there’s nothing to stop it from going in the opposite direction outside of the PCV. The catch cans (as I am using them) are simply extensions of the breather tubes.

https://youtu.be/-3Oz0lraPAw


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Yes they are extensions of breather tubes, but breather tubes don’t collect the residue to the point of having ounces of fluid that can end up getting sucked back into the crank case or intake (if not emptied often), additionally catch cans in areas that see freezing temperatures are never a good idea.


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[SNice]

Yes they are extensions of breather tubes, but breather tubes don’t collect the residue to the point of having ounces of fluid that can end up getting sucked back into the crank case or intake (if not emptied often), additionally catch cans in areas that see freezing temperatures are never a good idea.


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My hypothesis is that since I am not blocking off either ide of the PCV - I will not see ounces of fluid (water condensation). In reality -
I’m only trying to prevent the drips (tablespoons) going into my intake and collecting on the walls of my charge piping.

These are the questions I want to answer with this experiment.


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[SNice]

To catch can or not to catch can?
https://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=910083

Linking this thread for context and further information.


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[bb-tt]

My hypothesis is that since I am not blocking off either ide of the PCV - I will not see ounces of fluid (water condensation). In reality -
I’m only trying to prevent the drips (tablespoons) going into my intake and collecting on the walls of my charge piping.

These are the questions I want to answer with this experiment.


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yeah not trying to bag on your set up, glad someone is trying it. Just thought most catch cans are designed to flow one direction looking at the ecs it appears it is also.










wow are there baffles or steelwool down in the can also that does not look like it is providing much cooling to get the oil to drop out of the vapor

[bb-tt]

so this is interesting mishimoto now making dual can kit for camaro 2.0 and caddy ats. they t or y (ats) off the out port of th cc to the tip and to a separate port that chevy has for fresh air intake. so the tip is connected to catch can to suck from block though the cc and t'd or y'd to the fresh air intake to allow fresh air into the block

edit: also they have the bronze filter which i think probably does more than any baffle to prevent oil from going through

[SNice]

yeah not trying to bag on your set up, glad someone is trying it. Just thought most catch cans are designed to flow one direction looking at the ecs it appears it is also.

------

wow are there baffles or steelwool down in the can also that does not look like it is providing much cooling to get the oil to drop out of the vapor

All good! I just had to try it to get definitive answers! ...and yes - you are correct - the cans are designed to flow in one direction - there is an "in" and an "out". In the case of these simple ECS catch cans, the "baffle" orientation dictates the proper direction of airflow. However, there is nothing physically preventing air from going in the opposite direction.

There are no more baffles or steel/brass wool in the bottom of the cans. I guess all the little holes are supposed to catch the oil droplets and then they drip down into the bottom of the can. We will see how this works! :) Part of this is trying to understand what is marketing and what is science/reality.

And yes - we will see if I catch anything - maybe some steel/brass wool would help. I saw that other kit you mentioned. In fact, I saw a lot of dual catch can setups for many cars. I got stuck with the ECS setup because that's what I bought first and I didn't want mismatch dual cans. But some of those other dual universal kits look promising and would be A LOT cheaper to make work.

Fitting a dual can setup should be even easier on plastic mani cars (b8). Mine (b8.5) was a bit tough because I have the metal mani and finding the right components to replace that little breather connector required some creativity!

[SNice]

I should have posted these in the opening post. Below are images of the stock pcv breather tubes - front(turbo/tip) side and back (intake) side. The oil that is passing through these breathers is what I am hoping the catch cans will “catch”.

Front (turbo/tip) breather tube:
IMG_9238.jpg
IMG_9240.jpg

Back (intake manifold) breather tube:
IMG_9295.jpg
IMG_9294.jpg
IMG_9296.jpg

If the system is working, when I check the connection points at the Turbo inlet and intake manifold; I should see a reduction in the amount of oil that is passing through.

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[bb-tt]

yeah mine was worse than that with the k04, the new pcv helped somewhat. Now with the efr not seeing barely anything but only running up to 2.5 bar(including atmosphere)

[SNice]

yeah mine was worse than that with the k04, the new pcv helped somewhat. Now with the efr not seeing barely anything but only running up to 2.5 bar(including atmosphere)

!!! Good to know! One of the main reasons I was looking into this was because I thought the EFR would only make the issue worse! Also wanted to protect the EFR! And yes - thinking of the PCV as a consumable and changing it out definitely helps. I’ve got a new one ready to go in when I finally switch over to the EFR.


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[MongoMcG]

Very glad you are trying this out and looking forward to reported results. This is exactly what I was thinking of doing. That can will get the same full-force of the boost and vacuum that is present in the intake manifold, so reliability/durability of the seals, connectors and hoses will be of interest. I sure hope this works well for you.

[SNice]

Very glad you are trying this out and looking forward to reported results. This is exactly what I was thinking of doing. That can will get the same full-force of the boost and vacuum that is present in the intake manifold, so reliability/durability of the seals, connectors and hoses will be of interest. I sure hope this works well for you.

Great point! I have definitely added several potential leak points with this setup! Because of how the ECS catch can setup was originally configured, I wonder if it was ever designed to take the full vacuum/pressure of the intake manifold. I will definitely need to keep an eye on that. I did not pressure test any of the connections. As of now, no leaks, but I really haven’t been driving it too hard. The weather is breaking so boost season is near!!! Time will tell :). I should probably get some replacement o-rings and seals just in case!!!


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[SNice]

So far so good! A few things to report. The weather has gotten a bit cooler so keep in mind that some of this could be related to that but…

-My idle seems smoother
-Cold starts are smoother
-Initial 1-2 shift is smoother - it is no longer harsh. (That 1-2 shift after a cold start is usually pretty harsh - especially in cooler weather)
- Exhaust is cleaner. I haven’t been running it too hard but by now - my exhaust tips would be coated in black. I’ve put about 80 miles on since installing the second catch can. The amount of buildup in the picture below is more on par with what I get with E85.
IMG_9341.jpg


As far as the cans go. The front side (turbo side) can has not collected anything. The backside can has started to collect oil. It looks like slightly milky oil. I’m assuming it is a bit aerated - and that is what is contributing to the milkyness. I am not seeing any separation or water/condensation yet. I would not consider it dirty. Regardless - I’m glad it is no longer making its way into the combustion chambers!


IMG_9339.jpg
IMG_9340.jpg

These initial results are inline with what I was hoping/expecting. It will be interesting to see what happens with some more time, miles, and boost!


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[Muckman83]

Just install a secondary air pump or something that sucks the crank Vapours and direct it into the exhaust post cat. I dont know why manufacturers dont do this from factory being, its the same as burning it up in the combustion chamber. All ya doing is skipping the combustion chamber.
Its the only real fix to carbon build up.


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[SNice]

Just install a secondary air pump or something that sucks the crank Vapours and direct it into the exhaust post cat. I dont know why manufacturers dont do this from factory being, its the same as burning it up in the combustion chamber. All ya doing is skipping the combustion chamber.
Its the only real fix to carbon build up.


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Interesting. Would that throw off the metered air readings? I may be wrong but Seems to me like that could lead to a rich condition where the car is thinking more air is present. This pcv stuff is all new to me. I’m definitely learning as I go!

Also - just for the record -
my goal here is not to “fix” carbon build up. The goal here is to clean up my charge air so that I can make the most of it. I want air, fuel, meth, and as little oil as possible in there - so these additional filters (catch cans) are here to help. I guess the total setup would be to have the catch can oil drain back into the oil pan but let’s see what I catch first!


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[Chillaxin]

Just install a secondary air pump or something that sucks the crank Vapours and direct it into the exhaust post cat. I dont know why manufacturers dont do this from factory being, its the same as burning it up in the combustion chamber. All ya doing is skipping the combustion chamber.
Its the only real fix to carbon build up.


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That's why many manufacturers put a post-throttle body injector to wash intake valves on their 2nd generation GDI engines. That is much cheaper & efficient than a pump and check valve. On the B8 platform, the closest thing we can do is a meth injection kit. B8.5 has the 5th injector for E85.

[JLAllroad]

That's why many manufacturers put a post-throttle body injector to wash intake valves on their 2nd generation GDI engines. That is much cheaper & efficient than a pump and check valve. On the B8 platform, the closest thing we can do is a meth injection kit. B8.5 has the 5th injector for E85.

And that 5th injector on the B8.5 is only for E85 cold starts, B8.5’s have similar carbon buildup, but generally clean once every 100k miles, for most that would be once ever.


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[old guy]

Just install a secondary air pump or something that sucks the crank Vapours and direct it into the exhaust post cat. I dont know why manufacturers dont do this from factory being, its the same as burning it up in the combustion chamber. All ya doing is skipping the combustion chamber.
Its the only real fix to carbon build up.

This doesn’t work on several levels. Pumping crankcase vapors directly into the exhaust would slowly clog up the mufflers and would also be in violation of the EPA. Not to mention it will stink for anyone following you.

Another issue would be the lack of purge air currently being provided by the OEM set-up. Without adding any purge air, the oil vapors and condensation can accumulate in the block. Especially during the winter.

The third issue would be controlling the amount of vacuum being pulled. You would need a self-regulating vacuum source that maintains 3→4 inHg of vacuum regardless of the amount of blow-by. Excessive vacuum can increase the amount of oil blow-by.

And finally, the only real cure for carbon buildup on the back of the valves is to add secondary port injectors. A lot of the carbon buildup is a result of the exhaust/intake valve overlap. Port injectors provide a continuous wash across the valves.

A catch can set-up like SNice fabricated will greatly reduce the rate of carbon buildup on the valves, but it will not eliminate it.

I guess the total setup would be to have the catch can oil drain back into the oil pan but let’s see what I catch first!

You really do not want to do that. It will become obvious during the winter when you begin to collect an increased amount of condensation sludge. Not something you would want to return to the oil pan!

[SNice]

Finally got on the highway and into some good boost. I haven’t emptied anything yet - just allowing it to accumulate. No water or condensation yet - just looks like I’m getting oil so far.
IMG_9429.jpg

Turbo side can:
IMG_9432.jpg

Intake side can:
IMG_9433.jpg

Only issue I have run into so far is threading the base of the can onto the holder and top part. One time I checked it and when I installed the can - it was not properly seated. Luckily I did not cross thread the can but the seal was not tight. The result was some oil seeping/spray. It did not seem to affect the engine performance as I only noticed upon inspection. Basically it was a small boost leak. After reseating the can and ensuring it was installed and seated properly- all was well - no more oil seepage. I wiped everything down and will continue to monitor it.

IMG_9427.jpg
IMG_9424.jpg

Its clear that the manifold can does a lot more “work” than the turbo side can. For higher boost applications - I wonder if the screw on style can will give me issues. Other designs have caps that bolt down. Perhaps I should just start checking with the dipstick and limit can removal. I wonder if my borescope will fit into the catch can dipstick hole?

So far so good!


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[MongoMcG]

Well done and good report SNice. I know you know, but for the benefit of others... It's no surprise the turbo side has very little condensate because it only spits out that side of the breather (PCV) while under boost. Also, the milky-ness of the oil is expected because the oil vapors and combustion particulates are removed from the crankcase by attachment to moisture particles present in the fresh air drawn into the crankcase via a port on turbo-side of the breather. When the car is idling or steady-state driving (not under boost) the intake manifold is under vacuum, and that vacuum operates switches (check valves) inside the breather to draw fresh air into the crankcase through the breather's turbo side and spit particulates out of the breather's port to the intake manifold. The intake manifold vacuum is also what draws the purge air through the breather and into the combustion chamber.

I appreciate you volunteering to be the guinea-pig in this physics/chemistry/fluid-dynamics experiment. The results are promising. I am glad the can, seal and hoses have handled the amount of vacuum so far. Keep a keen ear when you start throwing boost at the system, though my gut says it'll be just peachy due to the rubber seal and finer threads.

[Muckman83]

This doesn’t work on several levels. Pumping crankcase vapors directly into the exhaust would slowly clog up the mufflers and would also be in violation of the EPA. Not to mention it will stink for anyone following you.

Another issue would be the lack of purge air currently being provided by the OEM set-up. Without adding any purge air, the oil vapors and condensation can accumulate in the block. Especially during the winter.

The third issue would be controlling the amount of vacuum being pulled. You would need a self-regulating vacuum source that maintains 3→4 inHg of vacuum regardless of the amount of blow-by. Excessive vacuum can increase the amount of oil blow-by.

And finally, the only real cure for carbon buildup on the back of the valves is to add secondary port injectors. A lot of the carbon buildup is a result of the exhaust/intake valve overlap. Port injectors provide a continuous wash across the valves.

A catch can set-up like SNice fabricated will greatly reduce the rate of carbon buildup on the valves, but it will not eliminate it.


You really do not want to do that. It will become obvious during the winter when you begin to collect an increased amount of condensation sludge. Not something you would want to return to the oil pan!

You could plumb it pre cat in the header. In a way its the same combustion proses, all ya doing is just avoiding the intake.


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[old guy]

You could plumb it pre cat in the header. In a way its the same combustion proses, all ya doing is just avoiding the intake.

This would eventually clog up the catalytic converter. It also doesn't address the loss of purge air ventilation of the block.

[Muckman83]

All im saying is its not impossible. Its being burnt in the combustion chamber anyway. Im sure manufacturers could easily come up with a way of just burning it onto the cat considering they come with particular filters anyway. Much like a DPF this is something very possible for manufactures to accomplish without the need of clogging up the intake. Its burning one way or another.


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[SNice]

Quick update here…. So far so good. Car has been driving wonderfully. Engine just feels like it is running smoother since I have installed these dual catch cans. I know - terrible, non scientific description - but I don’t know how to put it better. I’ve been running it a lot harder since I got my meth injection kit fully installed so the dual catch can system has finally been in some higher boost situations. Everything is holding. The weak point in the system seems to be the catch cans themselves. The intake side catch can continued to weep at the threaded seam -
especially when I started boosting more.
IMG_9542.jpg



Remember, that side gets full manifold pressure at all times. I’m not sure if it is loose threads or a bad oring. I was going to order a thicker oring but ended up wrapping the threads with some ptfe tape. It’s gas/oil resistant and it seems to have done the trick. We will see how long it holds.
IMG_9549.jpg


As far as catching oil goes - since installation, this is all I have collected. I have not emptied the cans yet.

IMG_9544.jpg

I have noticed a few things.
-Car seems to start easier on cold mornings
- that first 1-2 shift on a cold day is not as harsh
- since installing the catch cans, I have not had any p0240 or p013e/f codes after running the car hard.
- exhaust tips stay cleaner longer

As I start testing my meth system, I will get into more boost situations so looking forward to see how it all holds up! More to come!


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[SNice]

In my previous post, I described one of the catch cans (intake side) leaking. It turns out, the leak was not coming from the threads on the main canister. The leak actually was coming from the 10an/10orb adapter where the line comes into the catch can. The adapter has an oring that was allowing oil to leak down onto the base. It appeared as if the base was leaking. I ordered new 10an/10orb adapters with thicker orings and switched them out. No more leaks!!! Problem solved.

IMG_9620.jpg
The adapter at the right is the one with the thicker oring that does NOT leak.

With my meth system installed, I’ve been running the car pretty hard and getting into ‘lotsa’ boost. The catch cans are holding up well and appear to be doing their job. I have not emptied them yet since installation. Both cans have about 1/2” of oil in the bottom. The oil is mixed with some gas as it smells like my old 2-strokes! Other than that - it is pretty clean and I’m not getting the dreaded water/condensation. Temps have dropped below freezing but I have not had any issues and left everything connected. The way I have it hooked up, PCV is still operating as it was designed - the cans are just doing some extra filtering.
IMG_9623.jpg
IMG_9622.jpg
IMG_9511.jpg


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[old guy]

it is pretty clean and I’m not getting the dreaded water/condensation.

The way I have it hooked up, PCV is still operating as it was designed

Consequently you are maintaining a constant supply of purge air. Which explains why you aren't getting any noticeable condensation.

Nice work

[MongoMcG]

Consequently you are maintaining a constant supply of purge air. Which explains why you aren't getting any noticeable condensation.

Nice work

Old Guy knows.

I found my first spring project. Thank you Snice for diving into this and sharing!

[SNice]

Consequently you are maintaining a constant supply of purge air. Which explains why you aren't getting any noticeable condensation.

Nice work

Thank you, Sir! A lot of the knowledge and data you have shared in various threads related to this topic helped me set this up for success!


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[SNice]

Old Guy knows.

I found my first spring project. Thank you Snice for diving into this and sharing!

Cool! Been following your awesome build thread! I know we briefly exchanged on this topic a while ago. Very happy with the results so far. Looking forward to when I do some turbo upgrades to see how “clean” my charge pipes/intercooler are when I inspect them.

Car is definitely running “cleaner” - exhaust soot is reduced and I am no longer getting regular O2 sensor/HFC codes (P013F, P0420).

Your connections may be easier - as I know you have the ie manifold. I think it would definitely be a bit easier for cars with the plastic intake mani. I have the aluminum intake mani so I had to get a bit creative.

Looking forward to your progress!


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