Cam chain tensioner tool broken inside head

[ShelbyM3]

Well you learned me something! I need to read up more on these measuring blocks, now. VCDS is such a valuable tool on these platforms. Glad you got a trustworthy answer, rather than my speculative advice, haha.

When you are all said and done, this is going to be a very nice example of an S6. Can’t wait to see her buttoned up. Most of us left in the C5 section, are elbows deep in our own saga battles.


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[danspach]

Well you learned me something! I need to read up more on these measuring blocks, now. VCDS is such a valuable tool on these platforms. Glad you got a trustworthy answer, rather than my speculative advice, haha.

When you are all said and done, this is going to be a very nice example of an S6. Can’t wait to see her buttoned up. Most of us left in the C5 section, are elbows deep in our own saga battles.


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Proud to be among the faithful !! and thanks - I miss driving it and hope once I get it back on the road everything works as nice as it looks.

Now that you're knee-deep in 4.2 - this video was pretty helpful in understanding the CCTs and how (and when) they operate. Obvs the same for other C5's but this happens to be an RS6. He takes a methodical - and logically sound - approach to diagnosis and remedy.

https://youtu.be/GqklfIIfzz0?si=LcNt2piqUNjS8fpF


I've also realized - from your thread - that I need to clear out a few hours, pay for 24-hr erWIN and go to town downloading the manuals I don't have.

[ShelbyM3]

Proud to be among the faithful !! and thanks - I miss driving it and hope once I get it back on the road everything works as nice as it looks.

Now that you're knee-deep in 4.2 - this video was pretty helpful in understanding the CCTs and how (and when) they operate. Obvs the same for other C5's but this happens to be an RS6. He takes a methodical - and logically sound - approach to diagnosis and remedy.

https://youtu.be/GqklfIIfzz0?si=LcNt2piqUNjS8fpF


I've also realized - from your thread - that I need to clear out a few hours, pay for 24-hr erWIN and go to town downloading the manuals I don't have.

I actually was watching that video as I was responding to you. And like you, it confirmed for me that I want erWIN and will probably pull the trigger soon. How awesome is it to go down the list and know exactly how to troubleshoot? Man!

Thanks for the link on CCT, too! I bet that’ll help out a bunch of people over time.


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[ShelbyM3]

FigureItAudi has a good explanation on the topic. It’s a chain driven V8, but the principle is the same. I’m going to watch it a few more times.

https://youtu.be/9cMcKDqumEo?si=262LSij-hk4lwbHg


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[danspach]

Yeah, all of Steve’s stuff is super thorough. Waiting for him to build up the D2 engine.

[danspach]

Quick update. I’ve stripped the car back to bare timing components but having it done it all very recently it went a LOT smoother than the first time. 😂

Cams out and on the bench when I extracted the tensioner, it fell apart and oozed oil but there was no spring inside it. Ooookay.

Looked at the head and sure enough there are twin bite marks at the top of the head and clear evidence in two other spots where the chain was making contact. Guess it makes me feel better to know that the tensioner seems to have been the problem.

Assembly will commence shortly.

[danspach]

A few pics to substantiate the thread:

First time in service position! More room than I had anticipated but only because I have a much better idea of the entire process. I used some 120mm bolts from Home Depot to support the front clip:

[danspach]

Back to timing:



Cams Out:


Let's try this again:





Where the junk tensioner bit my head:

[ShelbyM3]

Slap the old bent one in a vise and pull it apart. I imagine it’ll be a little tough, but then you can get an idea of what is going on. Maybe the used one lost the spring or it broke? You’ve got one of those in the bent one! It really sucks you’ve thrown new hardware in only to have to potentially pull it right away!

I feel responsible. Sorry

Loving your attitude and positive outlook on this. You have a gift there, my guy. Have you gotten the new tensioner in yet?

Previously you stated neither of the CCT were responding based off VCDS and your consultation with an Audi expert. Are you going to only do repairs on Bank 2? Is Bank 1 happy then?


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[danspach]

Thank you sir! After this long I’m afraid I don’t feel I have much choice so plugging away.

And the part I ended up installing wasn’t the old one that I bent. It was what was advertised as a “good” used part. I couldn’t wrap my head around $1k for the Audi part and the mixed results with eBay tensioners made it seem viable option. <.shrug>

The cams and tensioner are back in the car, marks line up right where I left them and the right parts have the slightest smear of Reinzosil on them. Always cringy snugging down the drivers side with the tension on the cams but took my time 😅 and everything went in nicely.

When I last started the car, bank 1 was perfectly quiet and the timing marks were spot on so don’t plan on doing anything with them.

I’ll use my Fathers Day chip to hopefully get everything back in and fire her up. If that goes well then it’s drivers tie rod, trans service and mayyyyybe the RS6 exhaust I’ve had staring at me for 4 years.

I’ll report back with engine results.

Thanks again for the support and I look forward to following along with your - <gulp> three builds!

[danspach]

Haven’t started it yet but busted down yesterday and got the engine timed.

Well, twice.

First time it went back together fine but when I took out the crank pin and hand turned the engine twice, I had to go past TDC on the crank mark to get the cams lined up and even then it was a case where I was putting a degree of leverage on the cam lock to get the pins in. No good.

Took it back to bare timing again and this time after thinking about it realized I needed to also pop the cam gear on the passenger side (I’ve only been working on bank 2. That was enough to make the difference and now the cams and crank line up perfectly.

Valve cover resealed, plugs in, packs on and breathers connected. Was toast after that so called it a day.

Next to reassemble the torque mount arm/fan pulley quadrant, thread the serp belt and fill her up with coolant.


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[danspach]

Almost there.

My Reinzosil game has gotten strong.


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[danspach]

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[danspach]

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[danspach]

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[danspach]

Triple check cams to each other and to crank and she looks damn fine. Crank pulley mark I’d dead on and cam bar slides on with zero resistance.

Upper timing covers, serp belt tensioner, torque mount arm, fan pulley, serp belt, and fan installed.

Next up is final check, reattach front end, coolant and fire her up.




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[ShelbyM3]

Looking mighty fine! Home stretch!

I’m no expert, clearly, but it may not be a bad idea to fire it up in service position for a minute to check timing and everything. It won’t hurt to have the rad pack off and could save you a bunch of work if things need adjusting. I know a lot of B5 guys do that and look at MB 91-93 in case they need to adjust the cams.


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[danspach]

Here’s a video of the final check of cam alignment between the banks and with the crank.

https://youtu.be/xqtfZgOBETI?si=dKfck5L4LjfJ7Bg7


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[danspach]

In the video above, I had just taken the crank lock pin out before filming so the crank was where it needed to be. (Sometimes camera angles can look like cheating or appear slightly off.)


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[ShelbyM3]

Here’s a video of the final check of cam alignment between the banks and with the crank.

https://youtu.be/xqtfZgOBETI?si=dKfck5L4LjfJ7Bg7


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[danspach]

Yeah, I’m going to fire this puppy today.

When I revisited my pictures of camshaft alignment (the marks on the cam caps), I feel like I’m as close as I’m going to get.

When I started all of this, the intake looked like it was off by a tooth so when I had the slippery metallic octopus on my benchmark, I rotated the intake cam by one tooth and now it’s just slightly off in the other direction.

Since then I’ve started the car and it ran fine - bar the chain chewing up the inside of the head - and I got it back in exactly where it was when I took it out so I’m goin’ with it. Not sure I’m gong to do any better.

It’s time.


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[ShelbyM3]

How’d it go!?


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[danspach]

Not there yet. Still doing the day job and then helping a buddy do a window regulator in his e90 BMW.

When I do send it, I’m going to film it so you can experience the champagne (or whiskey) moment!




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[danspach]

Dang.

Filled with coolant and started the car today.

Rattling noise is gone (as expected) with the new tensioner so no more machine gun. Yay…but it didn’t take long before I got a cam position sensor error.

I’ve ordered a new sensor -which seems unlikely to be the actual problem - but before I lose my cool - is there any kind of recalibration that needs to take place after installing a new chain tensioner?

I’ve closed up shop for the night and going to take my frustrations out on the drums but wanted to tap the collective wisdom.

Whatever I need to do, I will but want to do it in the smartest order.


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[Calif_Kid]

Reading back thru all of the posts, I know you pulled things out a few times, so you definitely have the cam chain tensioners in the correct banks as they're bank specific? I am guessing if they were swapped between the two banks, then both banks would have error codes.

Wouldn't hurt to unplug the cam position sensor on the bank giving the error and checking the pins to see if they look OK, and then reconnect it. I think I've read that if a cam position sensor is bad, you can also swap the sensor between banks to see if the error follows one of the sensors. For the bank giving errors, if you remove the cam position sensor cap, then does is the bolt holding the wheel thing tight and any excess oil inside? I had an issue on the driver side when I worked on my 2.7T with the engine in the car where I didn't get the seal on the driver side intake cam on well enough where the position sensor is, and didn't have an error, but did have oil dripping out after a few minutes of idling. Afterwards, I put in a new seal and used the bolt to help fully seat that oil seal.

I did a quick search for cam positon sensor errors, and listed a few threads below, but there are lots of threads on the issue. What error code are you getting? You might want to recheck blocks 91, 92, and 93 - especially 93 to see how bad the readings are.

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...sor?p=13771810
around post #14

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...throwing-codes

- Jim

[danspach]

Hi Jim, Thanks for the reply. I appreciate you sending those threads.
I’ve only swapped in a new tensioner on the drivers side (Bank 2, cyl 5-8) and have the correct part (077109087P).

I’ll unplug the sensor to check if things change. I’ve unplugged it ( not while running) and cleaned the pins but still get the fault.

I’m going back in today and will let it run for a bit and post the scan and actual fault codes but it was “16730”. I had other codes as well and cleared them but that one came back immediately.

I’ve ordered a new cam position sensor from FCP and should be here Tuesday. Until then I’ll do some more reading.

I still need to see if there’s any “re-learning” that needs to take place with the new part. I also have to take a look at measuring blocks in the 90’s.

I’d love it to be the CPS or wiring but feel like at this point, that’s wishful thinking. Everything seeeeems to point toward me having gotten something wrong with timing but I’m going to take my time and try the least invasive idea(s) first.

Guess I’m at a loss as to how I could rotate the engine by hand and have it line up perfectly with the cam bar and crank timing mark and still have an issue with timing.

I understand when you use the cam bar you’re really only timing the exhaust cams to the crank but I put the cams back in exactly in the same position they came out and didn’t have this code last time I started the car with the tensioner I’ve just replaced.

The cam exhaust mark lined up where it’s always been and the intake was slightly off. When I moved it a tooth wayyyyy back at the start of this, it ended up off a bit in the other direction so the intake cam has never been perfectly lined up but this is the first time I’ve received this fault code (ever).

To be continued.


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[ShelbyM3]

That’s a tough blow. Sorry man!

As far as I know there is no learning that needs to be done with a CCT. I’m pretty certain.

Fingers crossed the camshaft position sensor proves to be the issue. Did you make sure your trigger is clean and oriented correctly? I think they can only go on one way, but I know my 2.7T ones liked to rotate up and out of the notch if I wasn’t holding them down while tightening the bolt.

An idea I’m having would be to check compression on Bank 2 to see if you are getting low numbers. If you aren’t getting good compression it would most likely confirm your timing is off, but if you are then maybe it’s a failing sensor and mechanically you’re set. A good amount of work, though. Probably waiting for the CamPS is better, given the emotional state I bet you’re in, and rightly so.

Any more progress?


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[danspach]

Thank my man. I appreciate the note. I went out yesterday and recorded a video. Engine sounds good but I haven’t plugged the laptop back in.

It was an 16730 - Implausible Signal code.

I should have the sensor tomorrow-ish but in looking at the bottom edge of the valve cover, I see the smallest of leaks so the cover needs to come off again anyway. I’ll take a look at timing then.


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[danspach]

https://youtu.be/7CtOeCHFUH0?si=a502E1COvRFaaOFQ


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[Calif_Kid]

I know that you put in new tensioner shoes, but just wondering if the timing chains that connect the intake and exhaust cams may be somewhat stretched or did you install new chains? I'm not sure if there is a measurement that can be done to make sure that the timing chains are OK or not. I searched for 16730 and included a few threads below. The second thread is actually for a V8. Good luck!! - Jim

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...ing-check-help!

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...ons?p=12294481

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...position-error

[danspach]

I know that you put in new tensioner shoes, but just wondering if the timing chains that connect the intake and exhaust cams may be somewhat stretched or did you install new chains? I'm not sure if there is a measurement that can be done to make sure that the timing chains are OK or not. I searched for 16730 and included a few threads below. The second thread is actually for a V8. Good luck!! - Jim

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...ing-check-help!

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...ons?p=12294481

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...position-error

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the post and the threads.

I dropped in the new cam position sensor yesterday and - sadly, as expected - nothing has changed so as much as it pains me to say it, timing seems to be off. The engine sounds great - nice and quiet but at idle, once warm, it wobbles pretty badly. (I'll post a video) I don't have many options left in terms of cam alignment but guess I'll be rolling it back by one tooth to where is was when I first took the car apart. I didn't get errors when I started the car last time but considering the cam chain tensioner was extended to the point where it was biting into the head below, I'm guessing it was "compensating" for my changing the cam alignment.

I'm going to see if I can get it all apart and back together in one day.

I have not replaced the chains and think chain stretch is something I've read more about with the next gen cars and the newer style cam adjusters.

Maybe I'll have a look at a new chain. Might as well. Everything else is new now.

[danspach]

Here’s the latest video of the car running with measuring blocks.

https://youtu.be/j0FGsWfEraw?si=_xa5umFuR2IydBZo


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[Calif_Kid]

I like your comment that you're getting pretty good at taking it apart... In many of the timing issue threads I've read, people look at the block 93 values, so maybe take a quick look at block 93 before and after pulling it apart.

- Jim

[danspach]

Sorry for the radio silence. My priorities were temporarily reshuffled:












Now that it’s been retrieved and safely stowed I can get back into the S6.


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[ShelbyM3]

You did it, yes! That looks incredible! Is the interior a brown or a maroon? Regardless, I love it. I bet that’s a pretty rare car!


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[danspach]

You did it, yes! That looks incredible! Is the interior a brown or a maroon? Regardless, I love it. I bet that’s a pretty rare car!


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Thank you, sir! I am truly stoked.

Interior is:



It has sat for “a while” but white on white with that carpet is project car brain candy for me. Engine turns, isn’t blown, wheels not frozen and the interior - amazingly - is dry.

Plus I can resell the cocaine in the carpets to buy parts.



How she looked when my wife found her.



I never stood a chance.


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[ShelbyM3]

Did you get it dialed in!? I’ve been patient for your Porsche, but I need to know, haha.


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[danspach]

Did you get it dialed in!? I’ve been patient for your Porsche, but I need to know, haha.


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Haha! You got me. We were away for a bit and then mourning the passing of summer with a few, last weekend gatherings.

Back-to-school now though and I’ve drained the coolant (and coffee filtered it for re-use), removed everything back to bare timing, popped the cam sprockets and going back into the head to take the cams out this week.

Honestly, more than anything it’s the cleaning and reapplying the rtv at the corners and re-doing the ccct gasket that twists my bits. Each time, I think “glad I won’t have to do this again”.

<blank stare>

This time, though I will be heeding your (very good) advice to not refill the cooling system until after I start it and check for fault codes.

Thanks for checking in - and for the poke!

I do envy your progress - and multi-tasking abilities!

- Dave


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[danspach]

Back at it (cams out, re-indexed and back in, belt tensioned)...and had a real "moment" in the garage last night.



My Engine: Ya know the hissing and clicking sounds I make when you turn me over by hand?

Me: Umm, yuh?

My Engine: You should definitely remove the shop towel plugs you used to cover the spark plug tubes before I make those sounds.


Forgot. Looked. There were only two still in the spark plug tubes.


I nearly wept. Legitimately almost started sobbing on my intake manifold.


How long will it take to finish this car now? Do I absolutely need to pull the head?
Can you use a long, curved pick to try and fish them out of the combustion chambers?
Why didn't you remember them.....you've done this like 19 times now!!!!


...and then I saw it.


One of them sitting on top of the downpipe behind the engine.

"No way!!.....please show me the other one...please, please, please!"

It was under the car.

Thank god for the compression/exhaust stroke.

Called it a night...too frazzled to work.

[danspach]

In less dramatic news, I got the t-belt back on and once I tuned it by hand (2x), the cam bar didn't go on cleanly. Required a little too much leverage to get it onto both cams and at this point, nothing less than perfect is gonna work for me.

The mark on the exhaust cam (the easy on to get right) wasn't sitting square in the middle of the arrow so going to take it off and do it again.

I have struggled a bit with the eccentric tensioner and how much to pre-tension the belt. Blauparts instructions are not very scientific* and think I may have had too little tension on the belt and once rotated by hand, lost a little bit of the synch.

Will do it again tonight and hope for better results.



* they say to align the "handle" on the pin wrench (it's not a wrench, it's a glorified crow's foot) with the centerline of the water pump pulley. I've done that 3 times now and it's too tight - doesn't leave anywhere near the 5mm clearance you're supposed to have on the hydraulic tensioner so tried to back it off a bit