K04/Hybrid & Big Turbo Support Group

[SNice]

Thanks Traptalk for a fresh new discussion on turbocharger upgrades and troubleshooting. This has the potential to be very helpful and informative if forum members produce good data and others chime in with helpful input instead of banter and bickering.



First of all, don’t be afraid to take it beyond 6000 RPM. There’s a lot of good data to be read up top. Editing your data logs by deleting all rows prior to, and after going WOT is helpful when analyzing logs. It removes the insignificant data and doesn’t cloud the picture. Here are a couple of your edited logs:

I agree with what the others said about a boost leak. I would check all the clamps and hoses. What are used for data logging? Your IE flash tool? If so it has ignition advance scaled incorrectly, If you have VCDS, it will show a correct value.



You’re N75 chart looks like it has a decent checkmark but your ECU is shutting the wastegate 100% up top to try to give you more boost.

Question about getting in to high RPM's - I have a zf8 auto. Even in manual mode, once I hit redline, the car automatically shifts. Is that an issue when it comes to collecting data? Also I'm careful not to press down the kick-down switch while doing my pulls.

[Iceman502]

https://datazap.me/u/moddoo/log-1606...&data=1-4-5-18

Quick log from yesterday in 3rd gear.

I'll try and get a cleaner 3-4 pull one of these days.

You're on the IE 91 octane tune, which should be the same at its core as my IE 93 octane tune minus some ignition adjustments. You have a 10 psi crack pressure versus my 6.75, and yet you still get some erratic N75 behavior down low. While you are using the Mamabtek WG, the N75 behavior makes zero sense.

Neither does the boost taper starting at 5000 rpm. My most recent log with the MBC inline with the N75 has the same taper point, but my crack pressure is much lower. I don't think that is how the tune is supposed to perform. Given that the MBC seems to be fixing my low rpm N75 behavior (still tinkering), this leads me to think there must be something physically different about the mambatek wastegate that is incompatible with this turbo/tune.

For reference since this was in the old thread: https://datazap.me/u/iceman502/mbc-i...3-4-7&solo=3-4

[Iceman502]

Question about getting in to high RPM's - I have a zf8 auto. Even in manual mode, once I hit redline, the car automatically shifts. Is that an issue when it comes to collecting data? Also I'm careful not to press down the kick-down switch while doing my pulls.

It's not an issue per-say - just a barrier that can be removed with VCDS. I believe the newest version doesn't give you access to the necessary adaptation channel, but older versions do. BB-tt was kind enough to send me an older version of VCDS; if you have a second laptop you could install it on, I can send you a link. The instructions are simple and on APR's website.

[Perry01]

https://datazap.me/u/moddoo/log-1606...&data=1-4-5-18

Quick log from yesterday in 3rd gear.

I'll try and get a cleaner 3-4 pull one of these days.

It’s a pretty clean log. Boost ramp up is good and you have a pretty good curve although it appears your turbo runs out of steam up top. Like I said earlier the IE flash tool’s timing advance is scaled incorrectly. I see double the timing advance using VCDS or HP Tuner log tool.



You have a nice MAF curve with good airflow without oscillation in mid range:



N75 values show your wastegate shut up top trying to keep up with demand:

[Perry01]

Question about getting in to high RPM's - I have a zf8 auto. Even in manual mode, once I hit redline, the car automatically shifts. Is that an issue when it comes to collecting data? Also I'm careful not to press down the kick-down switch while doing my pulls.

The ZF8 auto shifts at 6200 RPM which is fine for most people because these turbos get out of their efficiency range beyond that point

[Iceman502]

Is there any interest in a bolt-on TD05H-R Turbo kit specific to the B8 A4?

Here is our B7 kit for example: https://jhmotorsports.com/jhm-td05h-...7-a4-2-0t.html

I would think so, especially since concerns about the limitations of the AR on the eBay housing are being raised.

First things that come to mind:
1. Would the IE, or any other HFC, that is built to mate to the stock turbo, be compatible?
2. Would it still use the factory N75 boost controller? I see the B7 kit came with a new diverter valve.
3. Does the included silicone coupler mate to the stock intercooler? Most here have aftermarket intercoolers with the same OD
4. PLEASE skew the turbo on the exhaust manifold so that it is easier to access and adjust the wastegate.

[SNice]

It all depends what else is happening at the time of over boost. A few extra psi won’t hurt anything but if fueling isn’t being supplied for it or there is substantial knock then their will be issues


We’re you the guy that posted the log off of obdelevan ?

I think you need to get a clearer log still. I remember it was hard to tell if that was actual or absolute pressure. If those are absolute values than that’s 32psi with atmosphere so closer to 18psi of actual pressure


You should post a raw data log (unedited) and make sure that boost request and boost actual are in the same unit of measure and make sure you get a reading of the ambient pressure

Also help to see the wgdc, absolute load, throttle position, accelerator position, maf, timing advance, timing corrections, fuel rail pressure actual + request, rpm, short term fuel trim, and lambda to start

Yup - I'm the OBDeleven guy! Seriously considering going to VCDS - it'll cost money but will save me headache and time.

3rd Gear Pull. I captured most of the parameters you suggested - still need to track down a few. Sample rate is terrible due to ODBeleven limitations. I trimmed and converted the data in excel. Units should be good now.
https://datazap.me/u/snice/3rd-gear-...6-17-20&solo=6

I'm still researching and learning but it seems I may have an N75 or wastegate issue. Supposedly my wastegate is set to 6-7psi (according to CTS). I'm trying to figure out how to test. I should have done it before installation. The GIAC file I am currently running has a wastegate spec of 6-8psi.. GIAC will also give me files with 4psi and 11psi specs. Interestingly, GIAC mentioned that they see a lot of overboosting with the CTS turbos. Supposedly a good remedy is the Forge wastegate. This seems to be in line with you who have build your turbos.

[Traptalk]

Is there any interest in a bolt-on TD05H-R Turbo kit specific to the B8 A4?

Here is our B7 kit for example: https://jhmotorsports.com/jhm-td05h-...7-a4-2-0t.html

I’d be interested in a turbo only kit

Like no injectors or intercooler and stuff as barebones as possible since most of us don’t need bolt ons anymore

Literally just what’s needed to have it fully bolted in so dv kit, pcv, intake/charge pipe, and downpipe adapters


I actually thought about trying to adapt this kit but saw too much wasted money in stuff don’t need


I guess this proves our home made turbos are a better option than the k04-r

So try to keep pricing fair as possible and cut out what’s not needed


Dbv2’s hybrid is basically a tdo5-18g stuffed in a stock ihi turbo housing

Those are solid turbos but no really wants to spend $2500 for a turbo with a small and used housing

Lack of software is an issue too until hp tuners gets all the missing maps updated from the guinea pigs

[SNice]

The ZF8 auto shifts at 6200 RPM which is fine for most people because these turbos get out of their efficiency range beyond that point

Cool - thank you. I think the crappy OBDeleven sample rate caused me to miss the true RPM peak. I need to log with less parameters OR get VCDS.

[Jake@JHM]

I’d be interested in a turbo only kit

Like no injectors or intercooler and stuff as barebones as possible since most of us don’t need bolt ons anymore

Literally just what’s needed to have it fully bolted in so dv kit, pcv, intake/charge pipe, and downpipe adapters


I actually thought about trying to adapt this kit but saw too much wasted money in stuff don’t need


I guess this proves our home made turbos are a better option than the k04-r

So try to keep pricing fair as possible and cut out what’s not needed


Dbv2’s hybrid is basically a tdo5-18g stuffed in a stock ihi turbo housing

Those are solid turbos but no really wants to spend $2500 for a turbo with a small and used housing

Lack of software is an issue too until hp tuners gets all the missing maps updated from the guinea pigs

Yes, the kit would be the hardware needed to have the turbo installed. Ours is a TD05H-20G turbo. no stock housing used.

How does this prove a home made turbo is better than a K04-R? The TD05H-R is a much bigger turbo than a K04 variant.

We haven't shared how fast we've gone with a K04-R yet either and plans to go even faster here soon.

[Spawne32]

Yes, the kit would be the hardware needed to have the turbo installed. Ours is a TD05H-20G turbo. no stock housing used.

How does this prove a home made turbo is better than a K04-R? The TD05H-R is a much bigger turbo than a K04 variant.

We haven't shared how fast we've gone with a K04-R yet either and plans to go even faster here soon.

You answered that question yourself. You haven't shared how fast you've gone with the K04-R, and its been out for years. Not to mention Trap's turbo was significantly cheaper by several hundred dollars and is a 7+7 anti surge billet compressor wheel with a 9 blade extended tip turbine wheel, fully ported and polished, and ceramic coated, with an adjustable wastegate and bigger custom turbo outlet. VSR balanced to 140k rpm, and has a warranty on the core. The hybrid's were meant to be a cheaper bolt on alternative to the genuine BW K04, and somehow they wound up being even more expensive from some companies.

[Traptalk]

You know we are onto something when you see manufacturers watching and trying to pitch a new product

[Jake@JHM]

You answered that question yourself. You haven't shared how fast you've gone with the K04-R, and its been out for years. Not to mention Trap's turbo was significantly cheaper by several hundred dollars and is a 7+7 anti surge billet compressor wheel with a 9 blade extended tip turbine wheel, fully ported and polished, and ceramic coated, with an adjustable wastegate and bigger custom turbo outlet. VSR balanced to 140k rpm, and has a warranty on the core. The hybrid's were meant to be a cheaper bolt on alternative to the genuine BW K04, and somehow they wound up being even more expensive from some companies.

Did not answer this myself.

How does asking if there is interest in a proven kit we make for a different 2.0T work on the B8 platform mean than a homemade or china turbo better than a K04-R? BT Kits are a completely different ball game than a K04 and cannot be compared.


We haven't released it yet because we just recently started tuning for the k04-R on the B8 A4.

The term Hybrid is also used pretty loosely. Most people are under the impression that we are shoving a k04 into a k03. We aren't. The housing is made to have components located in stock location.

To build a turbo right, using quality parts, isn't cheap. Aftermarket turbos were NEVER meant to be a cheaper alternative than OEM. Often times they are, but not what the product's intentions are.


How fast have people gone with their homemade turbo?

[Spawne32]

You know we are onto something when you see manufacturers watching and trying to pitch a new product

lol Right? Speaking of which, some logs from today. 260g/s at 5600rpm, still trying to figure out why its 20g/s lower than the rest of you. We think I may need a new MAF, but the 09 has been picky about everything so... who knows. Adding more timing today since I was completely KR free.

[Iceman502]

You know we are onto something when you see manufacturers watching and trying to pitch a new product

Someone please watch and figure out what the best wastegate setup is that provides easy adjustment....

[Jake@JHM]

You know we are onto something when you see manufacturers watching and trying to pitch a new product

The title of the thread says "Big Turbo"

We have something available. If there is interest we would make a B8 Specific version. Which is why I asked.

Making BT kits for turbo cars is nothing new. I know this platform appears to be forgotten by most companies, but there is no reason to try and reinvent the wheel.

[Spawne32]

Did not answer this myself.

How does asking if there is interest in a proven kit we make for a different 2.0T work on the B8 platform mean than a homemade or china turbo better than a K04-R? BT Kits are a completely different ball game than a K04 and cannot be compared.


We haven't released it yet because we just recently started tuning for the k04-R on the B8 A4.

The term Hybrid is also used pretty loosely. Most people are under the impression that we are shoving a k04 into a k03. We aren't. The housing is made to have components located in stock location.

To build a turbo right, using quality parts, isn't cheap. Aftermarket turbos were NEVER meant to be a cheaper alternative than OEM. Often times they are, but not what the product's intentions are.


How fast have people gone with their homemade turbo?

People are deep into the 12's with these home made hybrids, how fast are you with the K04-R? I also don't understand the logic behind claiming its a proven kit if you can't even prove the numbers on the K04-R let alone a turbo kit that would be over 2 grand. How fast are your customers running in the B7 with the TD05H-R?

[Traptalk]

How does this prove a home made turbo is better than a K04-R?

Inside joke for those of us that have been here and have context because we were using the k04-r as a quality standard of Chinese turbos... a step above frankenturbo

[Jake@JHM]

People are deep into the 12's with these home made hybrids, how fast are you with the K04-R? I also don't understand the logic behind claiming its a proven kit if you can't even prove the numbers on the K04-R let alone a turbo kit that would be over 2 grand. How fast are your customers running in the B7 with the TD05H-R?

Our K04-R went 12.3 with APR software NOT an allroad.. a few years ago..

We will announce our performance results as we get closer to release. We have also gone faster with a 6MT K04-R with its terrible gear ratio than most people have with an 8Speed Tip with K04 variants, which speaks for itself. At least for those who understand gearing and how it relates.

How is the TD05H-R proven? The TD05H-R has gone 12.1 on the B7 A4 6MT. Not that is comparable to the B8, though as the B7 doesn't make as much power as a B8.

[Jake@JHM]

Inside joke for those of us that have been here and have context because we were using the k04-r as a quality standard of Chinese turbos... a step above frankenturbo

Gotcha..

[Traptalk]

How fast have people gone with their homemade turbo?

I believe Shane horning has the record with 12.1 or 12.2 seconds by dragy on apr 100 octane file


My turbos been in maybe 3 weeks total and it’s snowing here so I won’t be running for awhile

[Spawne32]

Our K04-R went 12.3 with APR software NOT an allroad.. a few years ago..

We will announce our performance results as we get closer to release. We have also gone faster with a 6MT K04-R with its terrible gear ratio than most people have with an 8Speed Tip with K04 variants, which speaks for itself. At least for those who understand gearing and how it relates.

How is the TD05H-R proven? The TD05H-R has gone 12.1 on the B7 A4 6MT. Not that is comparable to the B8, though as the B7 doesn't make as much power as a B8.

So your claim is that with an APR over the shelf tune (the one that everyone can buy from them) your K04-R turbo for the B8 ran 12.3 in an automatic sedan on 93 pump gas? I am assuming an 8 speed. I'd like to clarify this because there are some folks around here with IE tunes that are not available to the general public that use it as a metric for claiming that when you buy their product you are getting the best performance. Most of the comparisons people make fail to note the fact that they are doing it with E85 or race gas or a metric fuck ton of methanol and either custom tunes or 100 octane shelf tunes.

[Iceman502]

Our K04-R went 12.3 with APR software NOT an allroad.. a few years ago..

There's the time to beat. Dial in the custom tunes, drop the snow tires in the spring, and put down some draggy times that seal the deal!

[EvolutionArmory]

Someone please watch and figure out what the best wastegate setup is that provides easy adjustment....

The answer to that is the JHM K04R. 🤣

With their style of actuator adjuster I was able to adjust tension fairly easily with the turbo on the car considering it’s location and it is near impossible or impossible to adjust with the OEM style the CTS has.


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[Spawne32]

The answer to that is the JHM K04R. 🤣

With their style of actuator adjuster I was able to adjust tension fairly easily with the turbo on the car considering it’s location and it is near impossible or impossible to adjust with the OEM style the CTS has.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine

You mean, kinda like the one that comes on the ebay turbos?

[Iceman502]

The answer to that is the JHM K04R. 🤣
With their style of actuator adjuster I was able to adjust tension fairly easily with the turbo on the car considering it’s location and it is near impossible or impossible to adjust with the OEM style the CTS has.

You mean, kinda like the one that comes on the ebay turbos?

No I'm talking entirely new mechanical design. Like a canister that has an adjustment knob facing the N75 so you can access and adjust it by hand.

[mnripper]

It’s a pretty clean log. Boost ramp up is good and you have a pretty good curve although it appears your turbo runs out of steam up top. Like I said earlier the IE flash tool’s timing advance is scaled incorrectly. I see double the timing advance using VCDS or HP Tuner log tool.

You have a nice MAF curve with good airflow without oscillation in mid range:

N75 values show your wastegate shut up top trying to keep up with demand:

Thanks again for working your magic on the log for the internets.

I agree that the N75 seems to be struggling to keep boost up.
I'll watch this thread through the winter and see if any new parts or ideas come up to help with this.

The car works pretty well and I'm not in a hurry to mess with it right now.
I may set it up with meth when it gets warmer out again.

[Spawne32]

No I'm talking entirely new mechanical design. Like a canister that has an adjustment knob facing the N75 so you can access and adjust it by hand.

Theoretically any adjustable wastegate should be able to allow these changes to happen much easier by swapping springs. As long as its preloaded properly, you would never have to change it at the adjuster nut, only swap to heavier or lighter springs. I am not entirely sure what went wrong with the rod length on Traps setup, because as you can see, I used a IHI style wastegate on the first ebay turbo I built with that extension piece. However my CTS hybrid (gen 2) uses a straight rod style, which is typically found on the K04 borg warner turbos due to the need for a longer rod. I think, and don't quote me on this, when your turbo doesnt come with that extension piece as pictured, you should use the K04 style as pictured here...https://www.ebay.com/itm/MAMBA-Adjus...-/181857811786

Mamba's website is down otherwise id pull up the full specs.

[Traptalk]

Our K04-R went 12.3 with APR software NOT an allroad.. a few years ago..

We will announce our performance results as we get closer to release. We have also gone faster with a 6MT K04-R with its terrible gear ratio than most people have with an 8Speed Tip with K04 variants, which speaks for itself. At least for those who understand gearing and how it relates.

How is the TD05H-R proven? The TD05H-R has gone 12.1 on the B7 A4 6MT. Not that is comparable to the B8, though as the B7 doesn't make as much power as a B8.

Full weight? Or were seats changed for racing seats and other seats removed ?

What fuel?

What tires?

[bb-tt]

Keep it clean, civil, and adult folks.

TTTHHHHIIIIISSSSSS!!!!!!!

[bb-tt]

First log, didn’t get a great run, haven’t changed the oil yet. Probably have a boost leak but if anyone wants to take a look and analyze, go for it.

https://datazap.me/u/schwiz/11-30-20...log=0&data=1-5


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what are you using to log?

[Traptalk]

Theoretically any adjustable wastegate should be able to allow these changes to happen much easier by swapping springs. As long as its preloaded properly, you would never have to change it at the adjuster nut, only swap to heavier or lighter springs. I am not entirely sure what went wrong with the rod length on Traps setup, because as you can see, I used a IHI style wastegate on the first ebay turbo I built with that extension piece. However my CTS hybrid (gen 2) uses a straight rod style, which is typically found on the K04 borg warner turbos due to the need for a longer rod. I think, and don't quote me on this, when your turbo doesnt come with that extension piece as pictured, you should use the K04 style as pictured here...https://www.ebay.com/itm/MAMBA-Adjus...-/181857811786

Mamba's website is down otherwise id pull up the full specs.

The issue I found with my TBO wastegate was that it physically didn’t actuate far enough. The rod length could of been ok if it actuated more.

It’s total rod travel was 10mm. We need 10-11mm AFTER preload

Side by the side you could physically pull the rod on the forge wastegate out about 1/4” further than the tbo

[Spawne32]

The issue I found with my TBO wastegate was that it physically didn’t actuate far enough. The rod length could of been ok if it actuated more.

It’s total rod travel was 10mm. We need 10-11mm AFTER preload

Side by the side you could physically pull the rod on the forge wastegate out about 1/4” further than the tbo

If I recall in one of the pictures you sent me, mambatek's generation 2 of those adjustable wastegates said they redesigned the internals for longer rod travel. It's possible that the TBO is using a knock off of their original generation of wastegates. Did TBO ever offer you a refund for that issue?

[Traptalk]

If I recall in one of the pictures you sent me, mambatek's generation 2 of those adjustable wastegates said they redesigned the internals for longer rod travel. It's possible that the TBO is using a knock off of their original generation of wastegates. Did TBO ever offer you a refund for that issue?

Yeah $45 refund for the price of the actuator 😂

It’s a very likely chance that happened. China isn’t known for designing they are known for stealing designs 😂

[bb-tt]

https://datazap.me/u/moddoo/log-1606...&data=1-4-5-18

Quick log from yesterday in 3rd gear.

I'll try and get a cleaner 3-4 pull one of these days.

was going to ask if that was ie tune but see signature block. if you are happy with leave as is if not would tighten wg 1 to 2 turns based on this log and see what it looks like after that

[Iceman502]

Theoretically any adjustable wastegate should be able to allow these changes to happen much easier by swapping springs. As long as its preloaded properly, you would never have to change it at the adjuster nut, only swap to heavier or lighter springs. I am not entirely sure what went wrong with the rod length on Traps setup, because as you can see, I used a IHI style wastegate on the first ebay turbo I built with that extension piece. However my CTS hybrid (gen 2) uses a straight rod style, which is typically found on the K04 borg warner turbos due to the need for a longer rod. I think, and don't quote me on this, when your turbo doesnt come with that extension piece as pictured, you should use the K04 style as pictured here...https://www.ebay.com/itm/MAMBA-Adjus...-/181857811786

Mamba's website is down otherwise id pull up the full specs.

My eBay version has a straight actuator but also the extension piece with the knurled knob you can spin to adjust. If you don't use jam nuts, it'll come lose, and I had the hardest time trying to adjust it on the car. As tight as I cinched down the double jam nut last time, I don't see them coming loose from underneath the car. When the time comes, maybe I'll give it another whirl. Perhaps dropping the cat would give me enough room which is still less work overall.

The Mambatek seems like it would be a good choice, but.... more money.

[schwiz23]

I can confirm what Trap is saying about the rod length.

The TBO wg was also complete garbage. I tested it and the flapper would pop in place rather than a smooth opening. Probably needed the slide to be greased. It was all made of plastic inside though. The forge had nicer metal components inside.


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[Spawne32]

I can confirm what Trap is saying about the rod length.

The TBO wg was also complete garbage. I tested it and the flapper would pop in place rather than a smooth opening. Probably needed the slide to be greased. It was all made of plastic inside though. The forge had nicer components metal components inside.


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Ah so that solves that mystery. lol I know that the mambatek wastegate was as well built as the forge when I had it.

[Nano909]

Someone please watch and figure out what the best wastegate setup is that provides easy adjustment....

🤣🤣🤣

[bb-tt]

Did not answer this myself.


We haven't released it yet because we just recently started tuning for the k04-R on the B8 A4.

Not to be argumentative but when I originally contacted you about the ko4r 2 years ago you said the tune was almost ready for the b8. After reading some of the threads here decided it was a safer bet going with the k04-0064 and IE tune. Not saying there is anything wrong with your turbo it appears to be a good build and I was seriously considering it, but it is 2 years later and you are stating now you just started the tune? And why not share times? We have all shared times no matter how embarrassingly slow they are.

The whole point of these k04 threads was to share info so we could all learn from each other and get faster, not to argue over how much better one is over the other. You are right there is no comparison between the k04 and a big turbo at a stop light I will be 50 yards down the road b4 the big turbo starts to spool. Until some one comes up with a better solution for tuning med 17.1 the big turbo is a non starter for me also I hate lag. There is a reason Gonzo doesn't offer a med 17.1 tune. We are slowly (painfully slowly) figuring it out but it is not as easy as med 7 or simos and most of us don't have the time to dedicate to learning win ols, plus trying to find a med17.1 fr is like finding a hens tooth.