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  1. #41
    Veteran Member Four Rings Seerlah's Avatar
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    I hate it when my car acts like a little bitch, treating me like a bitch

  2. #42
    Veteran Member Four Rings Seerlah's Avatar
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    Just thought about this. Since this is a new block, the piston rings have not been broken in yet? And if that is true, how do you plan on breaking them in?

    The more you keep messing with your vehicle trying to get it to run, you will close the window of having the rings break in properly on the cylinder walls. Once the glaze takes over, the hone will not be able to break in the rings properly.

    I stated it before and I will state it again, know what you are doing before you damage a Pag Parts motor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerlah View Post
    ^Totally agree. Words from forum member (happy2B5/Jeff) I follow till this day after a more entailed personal conversation between him and me. Sometimes you need to take two steps back, to make one step forward. Very true words that apply to many things in life (I applied this to my personal life, and the end result is that which it is)...including getting your vehicle running properly before you damage a Pag Parts engine.
    I hate it when my car acts like a little bitch, treating me like a bitch

  3. #43
    Active Member One Ring
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    Mar 10 2020
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    Anyone able to help me with some logging data?

    Getting engine knock at WOT, but my AF is good so trying to figure out what else could be the cause.

    I am new to this so any help would be great!

    I have all logs for those interested.

  4. #44
    Active Member Four Rings EuroxS4's Avatar
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    Jan 24 2010
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    2003 Atlas Grey A4 Avant 1.8T 6speed manual quattro,2002 GSXR 600
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    Paramus,NJ USA

    What kind of tools/hardware/software do you have to start logging?? more information on the engine would help. Probably would be best to start another thread than to ask for help in another. I think thats just the best approach not to thread jack.
    VW/Audi Immobilizer removal and immobilizer adapting solutions for any and all VAG Vehicles, Odometer matching, SKC/Pin retrieval services/ Component Protection/Module Coding/Diagnosis Services and repairs.RB4/RB8 Specialist cloning and repairs. Located in Northern NJ. For inquries pm for details or contact me via Whatsapp
    Ziddy Autowerks

  5. #45
    Active Member One Ring
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    Quote Originally Posted by EuroxS4 View Post
    What kind of tools/hardware/software do you have to start logging?? more information on the engine would help. Probably would be best to start another thread than to ask for help in another. I think thats just the best approach not to thread jack.
    Makes sense, I posted a separate thread, can ignore my message.

    Thanks!

  6. #46
    Junior Member Two Rings
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    Well the car was never not able to drive, except after I found that vaccum leak I plugged up so it's not like the car was idling in the the driveway for hours or something like that, I've probably put less than 50 miles on the engine so far. I've just been driving normally avoiding highway driving, plus I've done some WOT pulls as well... I'm a believer that a gentle break in isn't the best for seating the rings. (All the miles I put on the engine were before I found that vacuum leak). As far as the ignition retard I was seeing in my logs I'm betting it was likely due to the un-metered air and the fact I had no trigger wheel for the cam sensor lol. I think the ecu was just trying to protect the engine by retarding the timing and playing it safe because of the lack of readings as well as incorrect readings it was getting from the sensors. Basically right now it's just that IAT sensor that needs to be fixed. After finding and correcting the trigger wheel and the blowoff valve leak (and switching over to a diverter valve routed to the tip) I havnt drove the car so I still dont know if it has in fact corrected the ignition timing pull yet unfortunately...

    Sent from my SM-A205F using Audizine Forum mobile app

  7. #47
    Veteran Member Four Rings Seerlah's Avatar
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    This is how I broke my engine in. You can use non detergent SAE 30 motor oil, but the main thing you want is zinc content. That is why they make specially formulated Engine Break in Motor Oil. Some people use just non-detergent SAE 30, non-detergent SAE 30 and add their own zinc, or use Break in Motor Oil specially designed with the right components in their blends to accommodate all the important parts of the internals during break in.

    Best way is to use Break in oil. I am an Amsoil fan (I used to run nothing but their motor oil, but that got too expensive. Brad Penn also makes a really good break in motor oil. I think that is what I used last time, can't remember. But I tried a couple in the past, including Amsoil break in oil.) There is a debate on how to break in the piston rings, so I will simply state the route I take and not what other's have done.

    1) Start engine with break in oil, let engine oil gets up to operating temps, cut car off, let oil cool a bit (you want the engine still warm, but don't burn yourself draining the motor oil), then drain the oil. During this time you want to inspect the oil you drained for any shavings. There will be shavings, but you need to gauge what is too much. I have a magnetic drain plug, so this part makes things more simpler. But...you will still see shavings in the bulk oil drained. This is completely normal, but once again you don't want too much. And any big pieces is a big no no. At this point, stop what you are doing and tear the engine back open.

    2) If everything seems normal from the first test of engine idle and observing the shavings, then proceed to changing out the oil with more break in motor oil and new oil filter. Basically a complete oil change with break in oil. Now, let fluids get to operating temps and go for a ride. During this time, you want to hit boost hard going all out from the start. Reason for this is the cylinder compression (using this term for the boost in the combustion chamber) will press the piston rings against the cylinder walls. This is what breaks in the piston rings, but you would want to do this before the glaze on the cylinder walls are made, so the hone can properly break in the rings.

    When you build an engine, there will be a spec sheet for parts you placed in by the manufacturers. It will list piston ring gaps for the purpose of the vehicle (will be on the spec sheet EuroxS4 is requesting to have). Depending on boost and purpose of the car, the spec sheet will tell you how to gap your piston rings. So when the block was built, you should have had a conversation with Arnold for the purpose of the block and he would have built it that way in accordance to the "manufacturer" spec sheet of parts used. Then Arnold would have written down the exact specs for that block "he used" and placed it on a sheet. Arnold should have supplied it with the engine block. On that sheet it should have the piston ring gapping "he used" according to the manufacturer spec sheet....but they still need to be broken in before the glaze on the cylinder walls take over. That just explains the process of piston ring gapping.

    Once again, this is just what I do (far from an expert by any means, and am a driveway mechanic who does this for a hobby) and there will always be a debate on this (ie baby it, go full blast out the gate then mixed driving after, mixed driving the whole time, etc). I go full blast with hitting boost. I think I broke my motor in at 15psi when I had a GT2871R. Current motor, maybe 15psi on a CT2 5152 Triplex (530hp turbo). Can not really remember. But it is really a hold me over block till it blows (spare block and FSI crank in garage for next round). Issue is, it's not blowing and may last another 100K+ for all I know (ie had it over 150mph, and still hanging around). Anyways, for the first maybe 10-15 minutes or so I go full boost and lots of vacuum. You want the two extremes at this time. Hard full boost, gas off throttle and lots of vacuum (try to avoid using the brakes at this time). After that, then do mixed driving in each gear (load in each gear, for real mixed driving) for maybe another 10-15 minutes. Drain the motor oil, and inspect the oil once again for shavings (there will still be some, but too much could be a sign of an issue with the block. and large pieces...break open the block and salvage the parts that were not compromised before the repair gets more expensive. For example...much cheaper to replace a bearing than a crank and forged rods).

    3) If all checks out with the above, then do another full motor oil change. Depending on what brand break in motor oil you use will have instructions on how to use their product. For example, here is Amsoil's with a more in depth explanation of why I take the route I do. They say to not exceed 1000 miles, so don't exceed 1000 miles if using theirs if I am reading it right on their site (I also use Asmoil assembly lube when engine building; I am an Asmoil fan). Other brands will tell you how to use their product. After that, full motor oil change and switch to synthetic. Or you can do something like run non-detergent SAE 30 for another couple thousand miles then switch to full synthetic. It is really up to the user, but the important part of the piston ring break in is accomplished so it really does not matter. It would simply be a preference thing at this point. But on the 3rd round of inspecting the motor oil (first was warm up, second was boost/vacuum/mixed driving, and third is just having break in motor oil as the engine still breaks in for at least 500-1000 miles), shavings should be just about gone. At this point, engine should be properly broken in.
    Last edited by Seerlah; 10-27-2020 at 06:21 AM.
    I hate it when my car acts like a little bitch, treating me like a bitch

  8. #48
    Junior Member Two Rings
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    I've changed the oil 3 times so far using a non detergent, I collected the oil in a bin and used one of those flex head magnets and stirred that around in the bin of oil for a two to three minutes each time and there basically was zero metal shavings on it and the amount that I was actually able to collect on it was very fine. I'm hoping that is a good thing rather than bad. About how many miles would you say it takes to actually break the engine in? It sounds like seating the rings takes place fairly early rather than a long span of time of like 1000 miles to achieve. And yes I never received a spec sheet for my engine so idk about the exact details that went into the engine.

    Sent from my SM-A205F using Audizine Forum mobile app

  9. #49
    Veteran Member Four Rings Seerlah's Avatar
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    Setting the rings properly takes place during the first hour or so, after first start up. First thing you want to do before anything is make sure the car runs properly. This is why I was concerned when you kept fiddling with the car, because you most likely won't now be able to break them in like I stated above (that window now is most likely closed). Without the car running properly, you won't have the opportunity to break the rings in properly (what I stated above and many agree with, but there is also the reciprocal of that. hence, a debate that exists till this day). Since that window is most likely closed, I would still do as I stated above because even though there is glaze you can still try and seat the rings best you can with the procedure above before the glaze thickens. Won't be as good as doing it from the start, but every little bit helps.

    Arnold is good at what he does. Many may not run his motors in the States, but he has a huge reputation overseas where many race cars use his blocks for their vehicles (along with turbo kits). And what you described the motor oil looking like after draining basically shows how he earns his credibility.

    You can break in the motor however you want. You can even do car dealership recommendations, if you wanted (ie taking it easy for a couple hundred miles at first when buying off the lot). It's all about preference and your block will be just fine. Thing is, the rings won't be seated as well because you did not follow the steps listed above (this is a can of worms I just opened, because this is where the debate exists). If he built the block with specifications for a street application and rings gapped by the manufacturer specs, the debate is basically how well the rings settled in and how they were settled in. This can result in future things like more blow-by than if you went all out from the start (instructions above). This is all theory though, so the debate still exists. But you have a Pag Parts engine built my Arnold and it will be just fine. But with the way you were describing the way the car was running, that can blow any motor no matter who built it.
    I hate it when my car acts like a little bitch, treating me like a bitch

  10. #50
    Junior Member Two Rings
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    Well when I did drive the car I drove it pretty hard so I think the rings did get a good start so far rather than not but I guess time will tell.

    Sent from my SM-A205F using Audizine Forum mobile app

  11. #51
    Veteran Member Four Rings Seerlah's Avatar
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    Regardless, your block will be fine (as long as the tune holds it together). So if you have any worries or anxiety about it, just let that one go. I was just trying to explain piston ring break in (for what many believe to be the best way to break in a brand new motor, which you have). This thread originally was about your car running like poop (not piston ring gapping), and as long as it is running properly then things should work out just fine.

    I was busy yesterday filing for unemployment, and it occupied a fair portion of the day so I was not able to ship you the IAT sensor (still on unemployment due to Covid-19, and benefits ran out last week for NY State. basically spent the whole day re-applying. since I am a Union Member, the process is a little different for me. NY State will cover unemployment insurance into Jan of 2021 for every NY State resident that applies and is approved, but I am not sure how they are going about it. and for simplicity sake because it is their jobs, and they should have another plan already set in place to cover the entire 2021 year. and this just happens to be part of the process, if I were to conjecture. I had to put in new direct deposit information and everything. but since I am a Union member, there is a whole other written out page I have to answer questions to and they review that too before they approve my benefits. this was all after I was able to actually get into the system to do it properly, so this entailed calling them to fix the issue and so forth...then I can go fill out the application online. and the new program times out the session too quickly, so I swear I had to do it at least 5 times before I was able to complete it all in one session. this is 10 pages and a questionnaire at the end. so yesterday was not a relaxing day for this guy...at all). I'll do that today. And pardon for cluttering your thread with this last paragraph, but it may be interesting for people who want to understand the NY State process during this pandemic. Other States have their own plans, or at least they should.
    I hate it when my car acts like a little bitch, treating me like a bitch

  12. #52
    Junior Member Two Rings
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    Hey no worries at all I'm just glad I have people posting on this thread. But yes I think everyone has a little different way of doing things which is fine as long as you both come to the same result. I was just reading this morning about engine break in and although it wasn't coming from this particular site- people out there break in their engines with fully synthetic oil. The caveat to that method is it prolongs the seating process because the oil is so slippery. Which to me kinda sounds like more of a chance for glazing but never the less people go with that method. (In essence it widens the window you mentioned earlier) I worked at Honda as a tech for a period of time and some models had the cylinder shut down feature for fuel economy. This caused a bad seal between the cylinder wall and rings because the pistons were moving up and down in the cylinders without combustion to push the rings against the cylinder walls. This caused excessive wear and glazing of the cylinders which would cause obviously bad compression but also oil consumption. All we did was rehone the cylinders and replace the rings and this was coming from the service manual. We never used break in oil or broke in the rings. We would test drive the vehicle and send the customer on there way (I'm aware these weren't built performance engines but its worthy of noting is all) so my point is there is 100 ways to skin a cat, and it seems the excepted method for audi and vw engine builds is what you have stated above and what also I chose to do as well. I was on this site reading about engine break in before I tried tackling it myself and potentially messing something up. I do try to do my due diligence and read before I try something new. I know this thread is getting a little off topic but still good info is coming through so I say keep it coming.

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