My 2Tone Allroad - a 2016 Allroad Story

[eljay]

So, I got the RS5 wheels in the end! Yay.
They are really light. About 5lbs less than an S5 rotor equivalent. I'm super happy with them, EXCEPT: for some reason, the handling is now noticeably "darty". The tires on them are 255/35R19 Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+ with about 40% wear left. So, I know that a wider stiffer tire will "sniff" out ruts in the road more than the previous cushy Michelin Xi3 winter tire. But this seems lot more severe. My wife noticed it immediately after driving just 10 miles in the city at low speeds that she had to "fight the steering wheel" and pay attention.
Nothing else change on the car and suspension is 35k miles old, so no worn bushings to worry about yet.

So, my only explanation for the sudden ride change is that the light weight wheel combined with strut/spring combo that expects to be damping 5lbs more weight combined with crosoverish ride height makes for a darty handling. Does that make sense?
Anything I can do to improve this? Is changing suspension to an Avant-like spec my only/best option?
I did slightly over-inflate the front tires as I prefer that stiffer turn-in feel (36psi all around vs 33/36 that the manual recommends). I'll drop it down and see what happens.

[dropshadow]

So, I got the RS5 wheels in the end! Yay.
They are really light. About 5lbs less than an S5 rotor equivalent. I'm super happy with them, EXCEPT: for some reason, the handling is now noticeably "darty". The tires on them are 255/35R19 Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+ with about 40% wear left. So, I know that a wider stiffer tire will "sniff" out ruts in the road more than the previous cushy Michelin Xi3 winter tire. But this seems lot more severe. My wife noticed it immediately after driving just 10 miles in the city at low speeds that she had to "fight the steering wheel" and pay attention.
Nothing else change on the car and suspension is 35k miles old, so no worn bushings to worry about yet.

So, my only explanation for the sudden ride change is that the light weight wheel combined with strut/spring combo that expects to be damping 5lbs more weight combined with crosoverish ride height makes for a darty handling. Does that make sense?
Anything I can do to improve this? Is changing suspension to an Avant-like spec my only/best option?
I did slightly over-inflate the front tires as I prefer that stiffer turn-in feel (36psi all around vs 33/36 that the manual recommends). I'll drop it down and see what happens.

The difference is because you are going from soft treaded winter tires to an all season with a lot less sidewall. Over-inflating the tires will only make the steering feel worse. You mentioned 40% tread remaining, what tread depth do they have left?

[eljay]

The difference is because you are going from soft treaded winter tires to an all season with a lot less sidewall. Over-inflating the tires will only make the steering feel worse. You mentioned 40% tread remaining, what tread depth do they have left?

I understand there will be a difference and I know the feeling in all our cars after a winter season. For example, our BMW Touring went from the same Xi3 winters (albeit same size as summers) to same AS3+ tires and I do feel more stiffness of the sidewall. But on that car, it's a welcome feeling.

On the Allroad, the dartiness is strange. It feels like when the tires get unsettled by a bump, rut, pothole, they don't get "planted" back onto the road quickly enough to keep the track, but almost skip a bit. It's like the spring/damper combo can't throw them back in place quick enough for the grip to be restore in the same path.

Alignmentshould be find as on smooth surface, the car tracks straight easily and stays straight under braking too.

I'll drop the pressure tomorrow and see if that helps.
The tires are at 5-6/32".

[eljay]

Found this article on the topic:
https://m.tirerack.com/tires/tiretec...jsp?techid=108

So, at least I'm not crazy and it's not just an effect of switching tire compounds and sidewall stiffness.

I think I need to tell my wife that we now need to get a different suspension. ;)

[19birel]

I suspect it's not so much the suspension as it is the wheels themselves. The wheels are a very aggressive offset, so much so that it would be equivocal to putting a 15mm spacer on the stock wheels. This extra width, particularly at the front of the car is what makes it feel darty and follow cambers in the road. To an extent, my current A4 does this with its wide offset A8 wheels and those are heavier than the stock 18" setup. I've experienced this on other cars as well.

An alignment might help with this, if the car has any toe-out it would be greatly exaggerated by the wider wheel offset, you want as close to 0 as possible

That said you might still notice the sensation to an extent even with a perfect alignment.

[eljay]

I suspect it's not so much the suspension as it is the wheels themselves. The wheels are a very aggressive offset, so much so that it would be equivocal to putting a 15mm spacer on the stock wheels. This extra width, particularly at the front of the car is what makes it feel darty and follow cambers in the road. To an extent, my current A4 does this with its wide offset A8 wheels and those are heavier than the stock 18" setup. I've experienced this on other cars as well.

An alignment might help with this, if the car has any toe-out it would be greatly exaggerated by the wider wheel offset, you want as close to 0 as possible

That said you might still notice the sensation to an extent even with a perfect alignment.

Good points. Yes, the toe settings will make a big difference in steering/tracking the road.
If I get an alignment with these wheels, will I have any adverse effects of going back to stock wheels come winter time? I guess I can ask the alignment shop to do an "in-between" setting for best compromise.
The muscle memory is adjusting to this, but for safety, I wouldn't want my wife driving over a big puddle and its hydroplaning effect being magnified by this behaviour.

[19birel]

Good points. Yes, the toe settings will make a big difference in steering/tracking the road.
If I get an alignment with these wheels, will I have any adverse effects of going back to stock wheels come winter time? I guess I can ask the alignment shop to do an "in-between" setting for best compromise.
The muscle memory is adjusting to this, but for safety, I wouldn't want my wife driving over a big puddle and its hydroplaning effect being magnified by this behaviour.

The car should drive better on both sets of wheels afterwards as the aim would be a very neutral setup. My guess is that this condition existed on the original wheels, but it was minor enough not to be noticed, the new wheels just amplified it with the wider offsets. If you plan on changing suspension though, I would do that first as lowering the car with of course change the alignment again.

It's also always a good idea to get an alignment on a car that has been in an accident. My car's alignment was all over the place (although it felt mostly fine) and it did not even sustain any suspension damage in the accident. Just make sure you go to either the dealership or a shop that specializes in European cars for the alignment though. Most shops won't shift the front subframe in order to adjust the front camber if necessary, my local Firestone chain actually refuses to align Audis for that reason. I always just use the dealership myself.

[eljay]

Quick snapshots after a late evening wash with the new wheels.





I love them!

I have coated them with Meguiar's Hybrid Ceramic wax before install. It's not the same as ceramic coating, but better than nothing. Dirt still sticks to them, but it's easier to wipe off and water beads on them nicely. Sadly, much more nicely than on the car, which needs a clay, touch-up and then the ceramic wax. I may just throw the wax on anyway as it will wear away with time and at least I will conserve the bad shape and not add to it before I get to doing it properly.

Someday, I hope to add A4 Avant S-Line suspension to the mix, but right now it's low on eljay's garage to-do list as the other patients need attention, which is also the reason why I haven't gotten around to the alignment.

[eljay]

Finally completed some maintenance:
Changed cabin filter and air filter. As you can see, it was time!


The cabin filter is super easy on the B8 since they moved it to the ...um cabin.

Air filter was just as easy with six T30 screws to remove, unplug MAF, loosen air inlet hose clamp and lift.
That one was needed too!


I was also going to change the spark plugs not having any service records, but when I removed the first one, I saw that it was an OEM plug with 03/2018 engraving and 05/18 stamp on it. Plus it looked good, so I left all of them in. Factory replacement interval is 6 years or 60k kms and then car only has 58,500 kms now, so they couldn't have been in there for more then 6-8 months and maybe 8k tops. I'll changed them around 80-90k with another service at that time.


Oil & filter change is another nice surprise coming from a B6. I find the B8 engine bay is quite roomy and the filter being right on the top is great. I have used a pneumatic fluid extractor connected to my air compressor. My measly compressor could barely keep up to maintain pressure around 60 psi and keeping the flow going. Plus the tube provided was too short, so I had to hold the exctractor angled and over the front of the car. But it's a 6L capacity, so it never got near full.
I first extracted about 3.6L and thought that more should come out. The filler cap was loosened. Then I realized that I didn't loosen the filter to allow some of that oil to flow down. Once I did, I waited a minute or so and then removed the filter entirely. I heard a couple of "gulps" as the oil from the filter housing flowed down. So, I fired up the extractor again and got another 200ml out for a total of around 3.8L or just shy of the 4L mark on the extractor.
I then filled up with 4L of Audi OEM 5w40 oil and warmed up the car and the level was at Min, so I added another 0.5L and after a test drive, I'm now at 2/3 mark, which should be right. If I added 4.6L as the service manual says, I'd be close to max. Conclusion: the extractor worked very well and it was my first completely mess-free oil change. The next one will be a drain just so, I can inspect the bottom of the car, but for the half-interval changes, this is perfect and quick.


Thanks again to the ever-helpful and ever-present Audi guru @old guy for confirming my process above last night!

And we're back in business...

[JLAllroad]

Found this article on the topic:
https://m.tirerack.com/tires/tiretec...jsp?techid=108

So, at least I'm not crazy and it's not just an effect of switching tire compounds and sidewall stiffness.

I think I need to tell my wife that we now need to get a different suspension. ;)

Used tires will have the wear characteristics from the previous suspension or position of the car (prior to a rotation).

Once moved they will quickly wear towards their new positions. During this period they may react differently than your previously worn tires causing some unexpected behavior.

As previously mentioned, knowing your current alignment setting is helpful.


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine

[djnuge]

Finally completed some maintenance:
Changed cabin filter and air filter. As you can see, it was time!


The cabin filter is super easy on the B8 since they moved it to the ...um cabin.

Air filter was just as easy with six T30 screws to remove, unplug MAF, loosen air inlet hose clamp and lift.
That one was needed too!


I was also going to change the spark plugs not having any service records, but when I removed the first one, I saw that it was an OEM plug with 03/2018 engraving and 05/18 stamp on it. Plus it looked good, so I left all of them in. Factory replacement interval is 6 years or 60k kms and then car only has 58,500 kms now, so they couldn't have been in there for more then 6-8 months and maybe 8k tops. I'll changed them around 80-90k with another service at that time.


Oil & filter change is another nice surprise coming from a B6. I find the B8 engine bay is quite roomy and the filter being right on the top is great. I have used a pneumatic fluid extractor connected to my air compressor. My measly compressor could barely keep up to maintain pressure around 60 psi and keeping the flow going. Plus the tube provided was too short, so I had to hold the exctractor angled and over the front of the car. But it's a 6L capacity, so it never got near full.
I first extracted about 3.6L and thought that more should come out. The filler cap was loosened. Then I realized that I didn't loosen the filter to allow some of that oil to flow down. Once I did, I waited a minute or so and then removed the filter entirely. I heard a couple of "gulps" as the oil from the filter housing flowed down. So, I fired up the extractor again and got another 200ml out for a total of around 3.8L or just shy of the 4L mark on the extractor.
I then filled up with 4L of Audi OEM 5w40 oil and warmed up the car and the level was at Min, so I added another 0.5L and after a test drive, I'm now at 2/3 mark, which should be right. If I added 4.6L as the service manual says, I'd be close to max. Conclusion: the extractor worked very well and it was my first completely mess-free oil change. The next one will be a drain just so, I can inspect the bottom of the car, but for the half-interval changes, this is perfect and quick.


Thanks again to the ever-helpful and ever-present Audi guru @old guy for confirming my process above last night!

And we're back in business...

Do you have the part # for the cabin filter?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[eljay]

Do you have the part # for the cabin filter?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Sure: 8K0819439
Take your pick: https://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B8_A4.../Cabin_Filter/
I went with the Mann version.

[eljay]

Got an alignment done.
The car drives a bit better. It's not a night and day difference, but that may be due to still being on those wider tires and muscle memory adjusted to the new driving feel already. But there is a difference surely.20200626_085457.jpeg

[eljay]

I just checked my timing chain stretch via the cam phase adaptation method.
My results at 59,000 kms:
Camshaft adjustment intake bank 1: specified value: 28.000º
Camshaft adjustment intake bank 1: actual value: 27.867º
Camshaft adjustment intake bank 1: phase position: -1.85º
Coolant temperature at radiator output: specified value: 90.0ºC
Engine Oil temperature: 83.5ºC

So, still some life left on that chain it seems. Hopefully, I can double my mileage before needing to address it.

[ps2cho]

When I did my oil analysis with blackstone at 3100 miles, they noted there was barely any wear materials at all, my bet is if you stick with <5k intervals you'll be good with the chain stretch for a long time. Logically as the oil evaporates, it would perform exponentially worse the longer it gets, so 5k to 6k might generate more wear materials than 0-5k, just my theory with turbo oil degredation.

[JLAllroad]

When I did my oil analysis with blackstone at 3100 miles, they noted there was barely any wear materials at all, my bet is if you stick with <5k intervals you'll be good with the chain stretch for a long time. Logically as the oil evaporates, it would perform exponentially worse the longer it gets, so 5k to 6k might generate more wear materials than 0-5k, just my theory with turbo oil degredation.

Here is my last Blackstone using LiquiMoly. 2015 Allroad 72K. The biggest concern is most likely from my AFE filter. Otherwise they are saying go for 10k, I won’t, but it’s nice that the oil was still performing.

IMG_9910.JPG

Liqui Moly 2332 Leichtlauf High Tech 5W-40 Engine Oil - 5 Liter https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00LIC29H6..._ov2mFb31DYHCQ


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine

[eljay]

I certainly plan to stick with 5k mile intervals, so I hope that helps.
Thanks for sharing the oil analysis. I haven't done one on this car, but I have experience with them for my B6 and BMWs. Good to keep an eye on the wear metals!

[eljay]

I am contemplating what to do about the front grille as I am not too thrilled about the plate mounting holes in it and there are no options to cover/fill them. When I was fixing the car, I bought this grille new as someone was selling it in local classifieds. So, I got this version even though we don't have front plates in my province.
The best option is to replace the grille with plateless version. But that's US$400, so I am thinking about front Euro plate as an option for around $60.

Current state:
no_plate.jpg

Option 1 (Euro plate version):
front_plate.jpg

Option 2 (silver letters on black background):
front_plate_silver.jpg

I think Option 2 looks too "aftermarket" for me, so the true Euro plate looks best to me even if it sticks out the most.
The alternative is to get a new Euro plate holder in platinum colour and install that for about $100. But I'd have to buy a new one, so it only has two mounting hole in the middle. This is the holder:
euro_holder.jpg
and looks the same as the one behind this plate:


What do you guys think?

[oVeRdOsE]

not having front plate is wonderful ! take advantage of it.

fill the holes and color match ?

[eljay]

Oh, that looks pretty good!
But it looks like that is a plateless grill that is painted. I don't think I'd do a good job filling in all those holes. :(
I do like the black flares though. I was going to try and spray paint the blemishes on mine and see how that turns out.

[oVeRdOsE]

Oh, that looks pretty good!
But it looks like that is a plateless grill that is painted. I don't think I'd do a good job filling in all those holes. :(
I do like the black flares though. I was going to try and spray paint the blemishes on mine and see how that turns out.

you need filler plate : something like this :https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...t-Plate-Filler

Pretty sure you can find someone that can 3d print it.

Also, for testing purpose, you can always try plastidip. But be careful, on those grill it will be very very hard to remove, put a 5-6 coat.

I did it on mine, and surprisingly , it still holding after 5 summers and 3 winters (1 storage)

[eljay]

Unfortunately, there is no filler plate for B8.5 Allroad grilles and there are more holes on the B8.5 grille beyond what the filler plate could cover.

Your plastidip looks good!
I like the chrome though.

[Dr.B6Banter]

not having front plate is wonderful ! take advantage of it.

fill the holes and color match ?

What wheels are those? Miros? VMRs? They look good! I'm a fan of low Audi's with concave wheels

[Dr.B6Banter]

Great read so far and the car has come out great... Remarkable how little damage constitutes an insurance witeoff these days... The little pices definately add up but I'm glad you were able to get her back on the road

[eljay]

Great read so far and the car has come out great... Remarkable how little damage constitutes an insurance witeoff these days... The little pices definately add up but I'm glad you were able to get her back on the road

Thank you!
Yes, it's quite surprising. No wonder so many good cars end uo at insurance auctions as older cars are pretty much a guaranteed write-off even from a small fender-bender.

The tough part is now whether to spend money on making it nice and finish the front-end or spend money on fun stuff and retrofits. :)

[Dr.B6Banter]

Thank you!
Yes, it's quite surprising. No wonder so many good cars end uo at insurance auctions as older cars are pretty much a guaranteed write-off even from a small fender-bender.

The tough part is now whether to spend money on making it nice and finish the front-end or spend money on fun stuff and retrofits. :)

IMO the frond-end already looks pretty good, unless you are talking about the little scuffs on the passenger side. I'm usually too impatient to do bodywork and end up getting sidetracked with visual goodies

[eljay]

IMO the frond-end already looks pretty good, unless you are talking about the little scuffs on the passenger side. I'm usually too impatient to do bodywork and end up getting sidetracked with visual goodies

It looks good from a social distance away. :)
The passenger side bumper piece is a crappy spray paint job and the hood needs to be fixed as it has a few crease dents and scrapes.
I'd like to find a good bumper part before I spend money on painting these parts.

[Dr.B6Banter]

It looks good from a social distance away. :)
The passenger side bumper piece is a crappy spray paint job and the hood needs to be fixed as it has a few crease dents and scrapes.
I'd like to find a good bumper part before I spend money on painting these parts.

Fully agree with getting solid panels before going through the time and money of painting. I was very close to using a fender I had lying around to replace the rusty one on my B6 but I talked myself out of it and got a new one so I didn't have to mess with Bondo and bodywork. I'm pretty good at getting spray paint to match the rest of the car and be glossy but I don't trust my body working experience yet lol.

[eljay]

Not much of an update, just a random picture... Hope you are all keeping safe!

[Dr.B6Banter]

Not much of an update, just a random picture... Hope you are all keeping safe!

The allroads definitely have a unique look with the fender flares... Not sure if it's just the angle or not but looks like the rear flares are wider than the front since the rear looks sunk where the front is near flush.

I have to run 20mm spacers in the rear for a flush look, but I'm a little paranoid and torque the wheels before a long roadtrip lol.

[eljay]

The allroads definitely have a unique look with the fender flares... Not sure if it's just the angle or not but looks like the rear flares are wider than the front since the rear looks sunk where the front is near flush.

I have to run 20mm spacers in the rear for a flush look, but I'm a little paranoid and torque the wheels before a long roadtrip lol.

Thanks. It's probably the RS5 wheels with their offset playing tricks. :)

I always prefer to find wheels with an aggressive offset instead of spacers. That way, there's no worry about bolt lengths, mating surface cleaning etc.

[Nut]

Hello from someone with the same wheels. Great wheels! Your pic does look kinda odd with the rear end all "tucked in"

They sure are flush...

[eljay]

Hello from someone with the same wheels. Great wheels! Your pic does look kinda odd with the rear end all "tucked in"

They sure are flush...

Looks fantastic!

[eljay]

Wash and wax before winter



And a seasonal goodbye to summer wheels



In the process of switchover to winters, I also replaced the rear rotors and pads as they were getting low and I had the parts ready anyway and didn't want the rears to be too far behind the fronts. Everything went smoothly.
A quick recap of the process:
- in VCDS, go to Modules - Parking Brake - Basic Settings - Start Lining Change Mode and click Go! - this fully retracts the rear parking brake. The parking brake light will blink on the dash and on the button itself reminding you to reverse the process later.
- remove wheels
- release EPB wire and brake hose from their holders
- remove the two bolts holding the caliper to the carrier (13mm socket on the bolts and 16mm wrench on the inside to counterhold)
- swing caliper out of the way ensuring you don't stress the brake hose or the wiring harness. - this was frustrating to me as there is nothing to hang it from in the rear wheel well unlike the front where you have control arms. So, I used a piece of wooden board and placed it between the top coils of the rear spring and place the caliper onto that. It still was in the way for the next steps and very annoying, but I managed to move it around as needed.)
- remove the two caliper carrier bolts (18mm socket). Use a breaker bar and tap it with a hammer to get the bolts loosened.
- remove the carrier with the pads and discard the pads and retaining clips unless your new pads didn't come with new ones, in which case you clean them up and re-use
- remove T30 bolt holding the rotor and remove the rotor
- push the caliper piston in to create space for the new pads. Since the EPB is fully retracted you do not have to twist and push the piston with a special tool. Simply use a C-clamp with a piece of wood or old pad against the piston. Make sure you don't use the EPB housing for leverage! Before pushing the piston in, I loosened the brake fluid reservoir cap, but no fluid was pushed up there during the process.
- clean-up any built-up dirt and corrosion, apply some anti-seize to the hub, and some brake grease to pad ears and sliding areas on the pad retaining clips
- reverse the process
- in VCDS, go to Modules - Parking Brake - Basic Settings - End Lining Change Mode and click Go! - this returns the EPB to its normal position
- Go for a test drive to bed in the pads against the new rotor. I usually do a series (6-7) of hard braking (Without lockup) from 80 km/h down to 20 km/h without stopping. Then drive back home normally and park the car without using the rear parking brake.
- Done!

I've used Brembo Premium Coated rotors and Premium Ceramic pads just like on the fronts earlier.



And winter mode is engaged! Quattro is ready for snow banks! :D

[19birel]

Jealous of that quick jack setup, looks quite handy!

[eljay]

Jealous of that quick jack setup, looks quite handy!

It's not cheap, but it's worth every penny! I highly recommend it.

[Dr.B6Banter]

Quick Jacks are the best!

It'll be nice to drive it in its element since you got it right as the snow was leaving earlier this year.

[eljay]

So, I bought another Audi.
20201230_231109.jpg

[eljay]

Oh, and Happy New Year everyone!!

[ps2cho]

QuickJack is on my list to own. What rating is the one you have? Did you get their adapters for the frame rails? No damage to the rails? Any downsides you've noticed after using them?