Oil Leak Issues

[dave45056]

Hello all,
I have a A5 B8 with the 2.0 TFSI engine.
A couple of weeks ago while on a road trip to Chicago, I noticed the engine was running rough and a slight burning oil smell after we got off the highway. This was a 280 mile trip. Prior to this the car was running great. No check engine light until the day we left. We didn't drive the car while in the city. I decided to drive it home as it ran fine under load and the oil level was fine.

When I got home I checked the codes. P2279 P0300 P0301 P0302 etc.

I went for a PCV Valve replacement. The one on the car was an AE unit with a white cap, so I replaced it with the revised AK unit. No change in the conditions. And I have seen drips coming from the engine. Also if I open the oil cap when the car is running there is basically no vacuum present.

I have a feeling I may have to do a RMS replacement or perhaps the Front Valve cover gasket or both?

Today I took off the skid plate and had a look. Seems like the front AND back of the engine are wet
The skid plate looks like most of the drips are coming from the back of the engine.

I'm pretty handy fixing cars, but this is my first Audi. I have worked on BMW's and Mercedes which I have owned as well. And I saw an excellent write up in this forum about replacing the rear main seal. If this is indeed the problem, this is something I will do while upgrading to a billet seal carrier.

here are some pictures of the wetness:
engine front.jpgpassenger side of engine.jpgrear of engine01.jpgrear of engine02.jpgtransmission01.jpgtransmission02.jpgSkidplate01.jpgSkidplate02.jpg

And a couple questions:
1. What do you think? The RMS job looks pretty big, so I want to be sure this is it before tackling it.

2. If I restrict the flow from the PCV to the manifold the engine runs much better. Will this cause any problems? Like increasing the oil leak rate of anything else?



Thanks,
Dave

[Allowencer]

For sure the oil leak is a RMS. I'm 99.99999% positive. I had it on my car too. When I upgraded my clutch because I literally killed it, I replaced and upgraded to the newer revision RMS. Zero issues since.

As for P2279, you have a vac leak somewhere. Do you have a boost gauge? What is your vacuum in inches/Hg at idle on a hot engine post closed loop? You should be around 21" Hg. If you're lower, like around 17-18 or even 19, you have a vac leak.

Per your test, you might have a leak in that hose or within the PCV system itself. Check that hose for any cracks. Also check the metal flex line that runs to the turbo, which is the air supply.

These engines have a mind of their own when it comes to PCV. Not always at idle will you feel a vacuum on the crankcase. That's all controlled by the vac pump which is in the HPFP, operated by the exhaust cam.

The random misfire, and the associated cylinder misfires very well could be attributed to your vac leak. If I'm batting .100 so far, you might be lower than 18-17" Hg to make the engine misfire that much.

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[Smac770]

I'd fix the RMS first and then see what remains. The RMS leak is going to make a mess of pressure regulation in the crankcase. And the PCV is what bridges the crankcase pressure to the intake track.

[old guy]

You mentioned that you had an AE white top PCV valve so you replaced it with the latest AK version. I'm pretty sure most of the 2010 A5's came with the black top PCV valve. Changing to the white PCV valve series requires new seals and a software change. Otherwise you may encounter issues similar to what you are experiencing.

Do you by chance have the complete maintenance history on your 2010 A5? Is it possible that a previous owner replaced the PCV with the latest updated PCV without the rest of the change requirements?

[dave45056]

Thanks for the replies.
I checked for vacuum leaks everywhere, but have concluded the air leak is in the crankcase as Smac770 said. In addition if I block the hose between the PCV and the intake manifold, the car idles much better and the fuel trim values stabilize.
Regarding the AE PVC valve... I'm not sure where the car stood with oil consumption issues. But it was dealer maintained. And it has had the same PCV valve since I have owned it (2+ years) and no check engine light ever.
My thinking was that this was upgraded by a PO with the new front main seal and programming. Since it already had a white top PCV I just got the latest version. On a side note, I opened the old PCV valve and the diaphragm was in tact.

I will start gathering the parts for the RMS replacement. Is the consensus to use the latest version RMS vs the iabed version?

[Smac770]

It's possible the PCV jacked itself and was no longer venting, allowing the crankcase pressures to build and blow the seals. It could also have broken the other way and been allowing full IM vacuum to the crankcase, which can also do a number on the seals. Is it pretty obvious that the front main is leaking also? Should plan that too since you won't get far with the RMS fixed if the front is also blown.

A 2010 would have had the black cap unless it had the oil consumption stage 1, where it would have been replaced with the white cap. They would also have used the updated front main seal. These days, the only front main seal part number is 06L103085B.

As for the rear main seal, seems there's been some changes over time. https://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B8_A4...ls/Crankshaft/
Original was 06H103171F, which ECS seems to imply as a "version A" aka "air side sealing lip". This seems to be the original on B8 even up to 2016. Now it's 06K103171H (for a 2010 A4, per parts.audiusa.com), which replaced 06K103171G, which ECS calls a "version B" aka "oil side sealing lip". Notice the price difference for the tool kit for A vs B. I doubt the repair manual version I have is even aware of version B. The manual was very particular about using the tool and making sure the lip was seated properly.

Is anyone familiar with the transition from version A to version B and the installation process for a version B?

[Theiceman]

Yes I am.
I did this on my build..

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...l-tools-needed

The old seal just pushed on so the seal lip pointed towards you as you are installing it.
The new style must be installed with the lip pointing in towards the engine. ( Oil side )
I did it without special tools ( yogurt container) and it worked perfectly.



Note as transmission needs to dropped for this, consider a clutch.

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[Smac770]

Curious, I thought that was always the case, and was the point of using the T20097 tool. But I guess it's actually intended to fold back and point outward (from engine)? Odd, wtf kind of seal can that create. The version B is a much older toolset, wonder what they were thinking going with the T20097 process.

https://workshop-manuals.com/audi/a4...ng_chain_end)/

I assume the real difference is one has a glued in sealing lip and you just press it in and make sure it's pointed inward using the T20097 tool. And the other has a pressed in seal, kind of like the iABED. And they are moving back to the latter as the common problem is not the lip itself but the seal between the lip and flange (at least according to Charles).

[dave45056]

Note as transmission needs to dropped for this, consider a clutch.

Mine is a DSG, I was't planning on replacing the clutches.

As far as the RMS is concerned, I really only wanted to do this once. The extra cost of the Iabed billet RMS is not an issue as long as it works better. The only issue I see is that the VAG RMS has 2 locating dimples but the billet does not. On the other hand, it seems crazy that the weak link on a PCV issue is the RMS. If having a stronger RMS means the front valve cover will become the weak link, that would be an easier fix. Just a thought.

[Theiceman]

Mine is a DSG, I was't planning on replacing the clutches.

As far as the RMS is concerned, I really only wanted to do this once. The extra cost of the Iabed billet RMS is not an issue as long as it works better. The only issue I see is that the VAG RMS has 2 locating dimples but the billet does not. On the other hand, it seems crazy that the weak link on a PCV issue is the RMS. If having a stronger RMS means the front valve cover will become the weak link, that would be an easier fix. Just a thought.

i would not agree that tan RMS is a "weak link"
i would accept it blows out if you put the wrong PCV on.

[dave45056]

Maybe so, but I did not put a wrong PCV on.
The issue happened.
The PCV on the car was an AE white cap. I never had a check engine light in the 2+ years I owned the car, so I am sure this was installed by a dealer with the PO (with SW and Front seal) The latest version of the AE PCV is AK which is what I put on as a potential fix to this problem.

[dave45056]

Well it has been a couple of weeks and I've not made much progress.
Due to Covid 19 I have not needed to drive the car. So it's all good there.
I did check the maintenance records on the car, and the dealer replaced the AE PCV valve in 2016. The AE PCV valve was originally installed in 2014 by the dealer as part of the oil consumption fix.

In the meantime, I have been collecting parts. I bought a new pair of jack stands which match the tallest pair I already own. I bought the iabed RMS as well. I was pleasantly surprised to see they have revised the design to include locating pins just like the factory seal.iabed seal front.jpgiabed dowels.jpg

I have a question for the group. Sealant. I know there are more than a few opinions on the matter, but I can't justify the cost of Audi sealant (this must be made with gold powder infused in). Especially when I hear Dirko is the same oem material. Has anyone used Dirko in this location? Grey or Black? Did it work?

Thanks guys.

[Theiceman]

I just used the factory sealant that i used for the timing cover, but no reason to believe an equivalent would not work. I didn't find the factory timing cover sealant that expensive. it is not the same as the valve cover green sealant that is uber expensive.

[Smac770]

This is the OE silicone sealant for the task according to the ETKA clone sites: https://www.genuineaudiparts.com/oem...aler-d174003m2
It's the same as for the oil pan, the lower timing cover, and other lower block purposes. It is not the same as either of the two supplies shown on the cylinder head page.

2-3mm thick bead, must be sealed within 5min after applying, must dry for 30min before adding oil, etc.

[dave45056]

Thanks guys. I plan on starting this tomorrow. I'll let you know how it goes and take a few pics.

[Theiceman]

Thanks guys. I plan on starting this tomorrow. I'll let you know how it goes and take a few pics.

you have the transmission out already ???

[dave45056]

Not yet, I'm starting the whole job tomorrow.

[Theiceman]

Good luck. I hope you have a lift and a transmission jack. Take some pics of the carnage

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[98A4TurboAWD]

When you have a failure with the PCV valve, it is common for it to blow out your seals. I had a code for my PCV valve. I replaced it with a cheap-o aftermarket. One that was maybe 30-50 bucks. It didn't take long for that one to fail, and it blew out my front and rear main seals.

You can check the sticky that I put together for RMS replacement. I have a lot of private messages that I never noticed until recently of people requesting to re-link the pictures. I'll check the thread after this to see if they're not working and try to find them for re-upload.

One word of advice would be to complete this job and at the same time put a VW PCV valve with the latest iteration - AH (if that is not the route you went already). Do not skimp on this part by going with a cheaper aftermarket is my advice. I found a VW PCV AH level part for about $110 shipped from ebay.

[dave45056]

Well guys, I had a false start today. I got to the first step and realized all of my 18mm sockets were 6 point. I never had this problem before, but a new set is on the way. Stay tuned.
And I don't have a lift, but do have a transmission jack, and a regular one, too.

[dave45056]

Well I have finally started working on this project. Due to Covid-19 I have been working from home and have not needed this car. But now I miss driving it.

98A4TurboAWD, I have been using your DIY as a guide to do this work. In fact, this is what gave the the courage to attempt this.

Right now I'm a little stuck. I have almost everything disassembled enough to drop the transmission. But I am not sure how it will clear the steering rack. The shaft from the steering column is kind of stiff. Was I supposed to remove the whole shaft? How can this be moved out of the way? Also, I have not pulled the lined out of the steering rack yet, but that's next.
Steering Rack.jpg

The other item I'm having trouble with is the rear axle connection. I have all of the bolts out, but it doesn't want to budge. I gave it a few wacks witha dead blow hammer, but it just seems stuck. Right now this connection is having a nice bath with pb blaster. Hopefully it will come free after.
Rear Axle.jpg

[RPMtech147]

Well I have finally started working on this project. Due to Covid-19 I have been working from home and have not needed this car. But now I miss driving it.

98A4TurboAWD, I have been using your DIY as a guide to do this work. In fact, this is what gave the the courage to attempt this.

Right now I'm a little stuck. I have almost everything disassembled enough to drop the transmission. But I am not sure how it will clear the steering rack. The shaft from the steering column is kind of stiff. Was I supposed to remove the whole shaft? How can this be moved out of the way? Also, I have not pulled the lined out of the steering rack yet, but that's next.
Steering Rack.jpg

The other item I'm having trouble with is the rear axle connection. I have all of the bolts out, but it doesn't want to budge. I gave it a few wacks witha dead blow hammer, but it just seems stuck. Right now this connection is having a nice bath with pb blaster. Hopefully it will come free after.
Rear Axle.jpg

I always have to use a sharp chisel and a 3 lb hammer and tap the axle out of the flange. You will have to remove the power steering lines from the rack to get it to clear and you should be able to push the steering shaft up far enough out of the way. I've never had to remove it. I think I may have removed the rack bolts too to get some more wiggle room on the last one I did but don't hold me to that though. It was a few months ago time I had a trans out of a B8. It's very tight coming out but it clears.

Here's the smoke test for confirmation from the last time I replace a bad RMS.

[dave45056]

To move teh steering linkage, does it telescope along its axis or pivot? I just don't want to damage anything here.

How did you do a smoke test? Is this a DIY kind of thing?

[dave45056]

Well I worked on this a little more.
The rear driveshaft has been disconnected
Rear Axle_seperated.jpg
The trick there was the chisel and hit it in an up and back direction.
I also got the hoses to this steering rack seperated.
Steering hoses out.jpg
No big feat there But the steering linkage has me stumped.
I have tried releasing the steering column lock in the car, but this thing can only move a little, then springs back.
Is it supposed to telescope into itself? I'm so close, but don't want to break anything.
Anyone who knows, please help.

[Smac770]

All the trans manual says is "Remove the steering column -1- from the steering gear -2- and slide it all the way up."
If we go to the suspension/steering repair manual and look at the removal of the intermediate shaft, there's another screw at the top where it connects to the steering column. You undo that, and then the shaft can be pushed up into the passenger compartment. So I suspect you need to disconnect the intermediate shaft on both ends. The manual is specific about "make sure the steering wheel cannot move", to the point of taping it so it cannot rotate.

[dave45056]

Thanks for checking this. I'll try telescoping it up. And if I don't get anywhere I'll take the upper bolt out and try again.

[dave45056]

Today I tried to telescope the steering linkage, but it didn't feel like to was willing to move enough to get it out of the way. So I climbed under the dash and undid the bolt to the shaft from inside the cabin and then I could move it out of the way.
So I took the last bolt out between the engine and Transmission.
Set up my stransmission jack, and another jack at the back and starting pulling it away
Transmission Jack.jpg.
It started to separate
Starting to separate.jpg
Then I noticed the engine would be free to pivot on the front mounts. So I installed a support.
Engine support.jpg

Then I realized a need another helper.
So that's as far as I got. But I had one more thing to do.
Time for a beer.jpg

Thanks again for all of your help

[dave45056]

Ahh I forgot to mention something.
As the transmission was separating from the engine, some engine oil dripped out. This confirms the RMS is indeed bad.

[Theiceman]

sounds like this thing is giving you a good ass kicking !!!!

hang in their dude we will need an expert when we do our clutches.

[dave45056]

I am finally working on this again. Don't ask, I know it has been a long time.
Wondering how you all tighten the drive flange bolts.
The spec is 60Nm +90°
That 90° is a challenge by hand with a breaker bar underneath the car. Just wondering how everyone is achieving this?
If I put the angle gauge and the socket on, the height is so long that it is difficult to prevent the socket from walking out.
I was thinking about using an impact and tightening it to a mark. but that sounded kind of stupid. So I'm asking... how do you all get this done?
Also, I do have a flywheel locking tool installed, so that is not the issue.
Thanks in advance!

[dave45056]

No one has trouble with this? Man I must be getting weak in my old age.

[RPMtech147]

lol, thread from the dead.

I have to get a buddy and wedge a screwdriver into the flywheel through the same inspection port you remove the bolts from, while torqueing it.

The correct way is to use the Audi counter-hold tool on the front of the crank.

[98A4TurboAWD]

I don't remember what I did or what I put in my write-up but typically if I need to stop the engine from moving I'll put a breaker on the crank bolt and use the ground to hold it in place.

[Theiceman]

I don't remember what I did or what I put in my write-up but typically if I need to stop the engine from moving I'll put a breaker on the crank bolt and use the ground to hold it in place.

With my luck the crank bolt would come loose, screw up the timing and destroy the engine.


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[dave45056]

First of all, sorry for making this thread come back to life again, but I'm stuck again.
I did end up getting those bolts tightened. I bough a set of XZN (triple square) sockets and a 24" breaker bar. This reduced the distance from the bolt head to the tool. I also put a magnetic base for an indicator on the flywheel to act as a stop for the angle gauge. Most importantly, I nursed my left shoulder injury back to 99% and that made all of the difference. I did have a flywheel lock on the drive plate, so no worries about loosening the crank bolt. Also, when tightening to an angle it is much easier to to use a ratchet. So I did end up using my torque wrench which has an 18" handle to do the final 90°.

I know I've not exactly been working on this consistently, but this project has suddenly become the squeaky wheel so I need to get it done asap.

So here is the problem. I'm having trouble getting the transmission back on.
I had it mostly on... all bolts threaded in, locating sleeves in their holes, transmission mount installed, BUT the top of the transmission had a 1/4" gap at the top which didn't seem to be coming together by tightening the bolts (at least with the moderate torque of a pneumatic ratchet). The DIY I am referencing (written by 98A4TurboAWD, many thanks) mentions "Thread one on the bottom, then put one in up top to pull it in evenly" This is what I did, but I still could not get the thing in all the way.
Sadly, I had to pull it back out. So now I can start again.
Based on what I have done so far I have some questions.
1. The engine tips forward without the transmission connected to it. Should I lift the front of the engine to tilt it back? Will this help? or is the movement beneficial to getting things installed?
2. The rear driveshaft is getting in the way during the install. Wondering if I can move it an inch or 2 rearward, without removing the exhaust.
3. Any other tips?

Thanks for all of your help so far.
-Dave

[RPMtech147]

First of all, sorry for making this thread come back to life again, but I'm stuck again.
I did end up getting those bolts tightened. I bough a set of XZN (triple square) sockets and a 24" breaker bar. This reduced the distance from the bolt head to the tool. I also put a magnetic base for an indicator on the flywheel to act as a stop for the angle gauge. Most importantly, I nursed my left shoulder injury back to 99% and that made all of the difference. I did have a flywheel lock on the drive plate, so no worries about loosening the crank bolt. Also, when tightening to an angle it is much easier to to use a ratchet. So I did end up using my torque wrench which has an 18" handle to do the final 90°.

I know I've not exactly been working on this consistently, but this project has suddenly become the squeaky wheel so I need to get it done asap.

So here is the problem. I'm having trouble getting the transmission back on.
I had it mostly on... all bolts threaded in, locating sleeves in their holes, transmission mount installed, BUT the top of the transmission had a 1/4" gap at the top which didn't seem to be coming together by tightening the bolts (at least with the moderate torque of a pneumatic ratchet). The DIY I am referencing (written by 98A4TurboAWD, many thanks) mentions "Thread one on the bottom, then put one in up top to pull it in evenly" This is what I did, but I still could not get the thing in all the way.
Sadly, I had to pull it back out. So now I can start again.
Based on what I have done so far I have some questions.
1. The engine tips forward without the transmission connected to it. Should I lift the front of the engine to tilt it back? Will this help? or is the movement beneficial to getting things installed?
2. The rear driveshaft is getting in the way during the install. Wondering if I can move it an inch or 2 rearward, without removing the exhaust.
3. Any other tips?

Thanks for all of your help so far.
-Dave

You should be elevating the front of the engine as needed to get the best angle.

I always remove the entire exhaust It's just a few more bolts. If I remember right one bolt does act as a tank bolt though, so be aware. If the drive shaft is being that much of a pain in the butt, just remove it...once again, only a few more bolts and will save loads of aggravation, especially if you're doing it on your back.

Make damn sure the torque converter is seated(If Auto) Spin it and force it backward with some good force. (Yes, I realize the the axle shaft prevents it from falling clear out of the bell, but there's enough wiggle room it could come out just enough to cause issues.)

[dave45056]

Make damn sure the torque converter is seated(If Auto) Spin it and force it backward with some good force. (Yes, I realize the the axle shaft prevents it from falling clear out of the bell, but there's enough wiggle room it could come out just enough to cause issues.)

Thank you! I did this and the plate moved back 20mm or so! It never occurred to me that this was free to move. Making progress again!

[dave45056]

Those of you with incredible long term memory retention may recall that I also has a leak at the front of the engine. While I was waiting to hear back on my previous question I started investigating the front of the engine. Especially since I could lock the flywheel due to the transmission being apart from the engine. This made loosening the bolt for the crankshaft pulley possible. I also put the front lock carrier into the service position. This was quick and made enough space for doing the work.
I took off the upper timing cover, and the crank pulley. There is dried oil everywhere on the front of the engine.