APR K04 E85 MAF Value

[Mars2]

I would be very intrrested to know the MAF G/S value of a APR K04 E85 Tune?
Can't find anybody that did log this.

Thank's a lot.

[A4x]

I doubt it is much different than the regular gasoline MAF. I say this because E85 gets it's extra power from timing advance, not from pushing more airflow.

The general MAF values I have seen for APR K04 are in the range of 280-310 on gasoline. I bet this holds true for E85 as well.

Someone prove me wrong with data!

[Mars2]

I doubt it is much different than the regular gasoline MAF. I say this because E85 gets it's extra power from timing advance, not from pushing more airflow.

The general MAF values I have seen for APR K04 are in the range of 280-310 on gasoline. I bet this holds true for E85 as well.

Someone prove me wrong with data!

We are on the same idea. I think that at one stage on E85 you are limited by fueling specially as APR use OEM HPFP. So i'm guessing that they down tune the Boost at high rev so their for limiting the max G/S and then get max HP from Timing allowed by E85. that's why I'm curious to see how much they down tuned the Boost past let's say 5000rpm. or how much they limited the max G/S. Maybe I'm totally wrong and the OEM fueling from a B8.5 flex fuel can supply enough E85 to a K04 pushing more than 300G/S.

[Mars2]

I search as much as I could and only found one post from allraodCorbin saying he log 903KG/H with APR device that would be 250G/S
That seams a bit low. You would need something like 24° of ignition timing with 250G/s. but may be 250 is the max the injector can supply with E85.
To make the 374CHP (336 WHP) that APR claim with E85, I was expecting 270 to 280G/S

[bb-tt]

I search as much as I could and only found one post from allraodCorbin saying he log 903KG/H with APR device that would be 250G/S
That seams a bit low. You would need something like 24° of ignition timing with 250G/s. but may be 250 is the max the injector can supply with E85.
To make the 374CHP (336 WHP) that APR claim with E85, I was expecting 270 to 280G/S

Can't speak for apr or e85 tune but as i said in the other thread i max out at 330 g/s and Perry max's at 320 g/s. but we both also have true BW k04-0064 not hybrids and IE tunes. As far as APR goes to quote from VW Vortex forums "I don't like my APR tune it makes to much boost... said no one ever"

You are asking for info from a really small subset of users, few owners have a k04, fewer have APR, and fewer still have E85.

[Mars2]

Can't speak for apr or e85 tune but as i said in the other thread i max out at 330 g/s and Perry max's at 320 g/s. but we both also have true BW k04-0064 not hybrids and IE tunes. As far as APR goes to quote from VW Vortex forums "I don't like my APR tune it makes to much boost... said no one ever"

You are asking for info from a really small subset of users, few owners have a k04, fewer have APR, and fewer still have E85.

I thought E85 was big in USA? From my time with Subaru STI and later FRS/BRZ ( called GT86 in Europe) So many US guy's playing around with E85

PS: woaw 330 that is about 40 more than APR so even with low timing of 10° that is at least 50 Hp more! Very impressive.
Are you 100% sure your tuner don't scale up MAF reading to make you guys happy? No just kidding

I 'm sorry but now I get very confused a G6 GTI EA888.1 with a true K04-064 get 258.8G/S and make 330WHP so you with your 330G/S must be 420WHP? Or 494CHP assuming 15% power loss for a G6 GTI? Or APR is lying?
Or do i get something wrong?I must be stupid.

https://www.golfmk6.com/forums/index...market.237519/
https://www.goapr.com/products/turbo...0_tsi_k04.html

I'm getting more and more confused!

[Spawne32]

I thought E85 was big in USA? From my time with Subaru STI and later FRS/BRZ ( called GT86 in Europe) So many US guy's playing around with E85

PS: woaw 330 that is about 40 more than APR so even with low timing of 10° that is at least 50 Hp more! Very impressive.
Are you 100% sure your tuner don't scale up MAF reading to make you guys happy? No just kidding

I 'm sorry but now I get very confused a G6 GTI EA888.1 with a true K04-064 get 258.8G/S and make 330WHP so you with your 330G/S must be 420WHP? Or 494CHP assuming 15% power loss for a G6 GTI? Or APR is lying?
Or do i get something wrong?I must be stupid.

https://www.golfmk6.com/forums/index...market.237519/
https://www.goapr.com/products/turbo...0_tsi_k04.html

I'm getting more and more confused!

they tried to push E85 as the next new big thing in fuel, including diesel during the last gas price crisis over a decade ago. it never really caught on because it was around the same price per gallon, and required too many changes that car manufacturers werent willing to pay for. flex fuel vehicles kinda died out about 8-10 years ago.

[bb-tt]

I thought E85 was big in USA? From my time with Subaru STI and later FRS/BRZ ( called GT86 in Europe) So many US guy's playing around with E85

PS: woaw 330 that is about 40 more than APR so even with low timing of 10° that is at least 50 Hp more! Very impressive.
Are you 100% sure your tuner don't scale up MAF reading to make you guys happy? No just kidding

I 'm sorry but now I get very confused a G6 GTI EA888.1 with a true K04-064 get 258.8G/S and make 330WHP so you with your 330G/S must be 420WHP? Or 494CHP assuming 15% power loss for a G6 GTI? Or APR is lying?
Or do i get something wrong?I must be stupid.

https://www.golfmk6.com/forums/index...market.237519/
https://www.goapr.com/products/turbo...0_tsi_k04.html

I'm getting more and more confused!

Wow I wish I would be highly surprised if it was that high at the crank. More likely on a good day maybe 410 at the crank (a very good day) and probably in the 330-350 range whp trying to get some things straightened out but have not had time to log recently. Once I get everything running the way I would like I plan on getting dyno again. Unfortunately am in Dallas now so won't be same dyno to compare against when I had the k03. And we are all logging with vcds so I would guess that is about as accurate as I could get. Recently purchased hp tuners when I get a good solid weekend to play will try to run logs with vcds and hp tuners and compare.

[Depthcharge]

Wow I wish I would be highly surprised if it was that high at the crank. More likely on a good day maybe 410 at the crank (a very good day) and probably in the 330-350 range whp trying to get some things straightened out but have not had time to log recently. Once I get everything running the way I would like I plan on getting dyno again. Unfortunately am in Dallas now so won't be same dyno to compare against when I had the k03. And we are all logging with vcds so I would guess that is about as accurate as I could get. Recently purchased hp tuners when I get a good solid weekend to play will try to run logs with vcds and hp tuners and compare.

We have like 2 E85 pumps in Dallas. One over by White Rock Lake if you're looking for E85.

[Chatchie]

E85 is still big in the west and mid west where all the corn is. It's slim pickings on the East coast but luckily we have 1 pump in my hometown that you'll usually see a dope car at.

[Mars2]

I don't want to offence anyone but I'm more and more thinking that for what ever tuning reason IE is changing the scaling of the MAP sensor.
For me it does not make sense that you make 60G/S more than a G6 GTI K04 may be because of VVT 20 or 30 would be ok.
But 60 that is at least 75CHP more than a G6 GTI.
Is the EA888.2 so much superior to the EA888.1?

Here topic about G6 GTI K04 MAF reading.
https://www.golfmk6.com/forums/index...owners.297279/

Please school me if what I say doesn't make any sense. I'm trying to understand.


PS: I know that in the past REVO was using the trick to scale up the MAP to pass over some limitation in the ECU.
I have to find that back

[Perry01]

I don't want to offence anyone but I'm more and more thinking that for what ever tuning reason IE is changing the scaling of the MAP sensor.

For me it does not make sense that you make 60G/S more than a G6 GTI K04. Is the EA888.2 so much superior to the EA888.1?

Please school me if what I say doesn't make any sense. I'm trying to understand.

I assume you are referring to a MK6 GTI? It is an apples to oranges comparison. EA888.2 vs. EA888.1. Different intakes and different MAF location. Different plumbing and intercoolers play a role as well.

I tried APR’s K04 93 octane file for a few days (Money back guarantee) to compare with my IE tune. The APR file had more low end torque but not as much boost up top. I still logged 303 g/s with the APR K04 file.

BTW, my CTS K04-0064 is ported and polished for better air flow.

[bb-tt]

I don't want to offence anyone but I'm more and more thinking that for what ever tuning reason IE is changing the scaling of the MAP sensor.
For me it does not make sense that you make 60G/S more than a G6 GTI K04 may be because of VVT 20 or 30 would be ok.
But 60 that is at least 75CHP more than a G6 GTI.
Is the EA888.2 so much superior to the EA888.1?

Here topic about G6 GTI K04 MAF reading.
https://www.golfmk6.com/forums/index...owners.297279/

Please school me if what I say doesn't make any sense. I'm trying to understand.


PS: I know that in the past REVO was using the trick to scale up the MAP to pass over some limitation in the ECU.
I have to find that back

I assume you meant MAF, believe that is highly unlikely. You are comparing two completely different set ups. I have tried to remove every restriction possible on both the charge and exhaust side. The stock setup is highly restrictive.

[Traptalk]

I don't want to offence anyone but I'm more and more thinking that for what ever tuning reason IE is changing the scaling of the MAP sensor.
For me it does not make sense that you make 60G/S more than a G6 GTI K04 may be because of VVT 20 or 30 would be ok.
But 60 that is at least 75CHP more than a G6 GTI.
Is the EA888.2 so much superior to the EA888.1?

Here topic about G6 GTI K04 MAF reading.
https://www.golfmk6.com/forums/index...owners.297279/

Please school me if what I say doesn't make any sense. I'm trying to understand.


PS: I know that in the past REVO was using the trick to scale up the MAP to pass over some limitation in the ECU.
I have to find that back

My buddies mk6 gti with IE’s borg Warner k04 kit and all bolt ons with a pro tune from stratified via his Cobb accessport I’ve watched him exceed 330g/s live on the AP

[Mars2]

I'm really impressed.
I did not know the K04 could flow so much air.

Back to my topic I really would like to know what APR K04 E85 flow in G/S.
I can't beleive that nobody did log their K04 E85 tune. Maybe they are shy to post because it will be very low compare to your 330G/S
When I started that project my target was to get something close to APR K04 E85 so about 370-375 CHp or 335WHP and 380-390Lb/ft
with those number that I could see how far I'm from my target with my 278G/S at 1.2 bar


I read again the G6 GTI FT23T E85 build of Rotaryknight that did 400WHP on 100% E85 and he had no timing pull with 24°.
This make me more confident that I can keep my super agressive timing with some more boost at top and E85

Capture 2020-03-07 à 14.03.00.jpg

[EvolutionArmory]

The difference will be in timing advance, not MAF.

For example, not E85 but with my 100 octane tune I make nearly identical peak MAF but am advanced 7 more degrees than with my pump gas file. Peak did not change but my low and mid range MAF numbers increased by a pretty decent amount. I’m making 15GS more at 3 and 4K. As RPM increases, the MAF values between the 2 tunes gradually levels out.

You won’t see huge peak MAF value gains through alternative fuels because the power is made through timing, not airflow.

[Mars2]

Exactly what I say. MAF will not change but WHP will change with more timing. We are saying exactly the same.
AFR will also not change MAF reading but will change WHP.
MAF is only intresting to know how your engine breath in breath out.
Timing will change the moment the explosion happened making it more efficient at pushing the piston and the rod that it's connected to ( specially up the rev) but you will not gain much G/S. each cycle of each piston will still suck same amount of air.
So with same MAF but different timing and AFR you can have very different WHP result.

So my understanding si that to get max WHP with a K04 on E85 you have first to see what G/S your fueling can allowed you. then tune the N75 for that G/S and then try to add as much timing as it's possible before it start knocking or not produce any more WHP increase. I leave on the side the AFR for now.

Thats why I choose to make a turbo that is not the best for peak G/S but has very early spool because I know at high rev my first limiting factor will be the fueling not the turbo flow. So i will need timing to get higher WHP
So i try to have the widest power range. This thinking is only because 100% E85 with Pump gas I would have 30% more fueling room so it would be very different strategy.

But may be I got all this wrong.

[EvolutionArmory]

I don’t see any reason why you would take the route you’re taking over a K04 to be honest.

A properly set up K04 will give you full spool at 2800, max torque at 3K and over 300 WHP. Why experiment when a K04 with meth or E85 is a tried and true way to get there?

I know there was a myth floating around this subforum for a while that a K04 doesn’t spool quick and a stage 2 tune has better bottom end but that’s a laugh. That probably came about from people not adjusting their K04 wastegates to run 22 PSI before installing them.

And why would you have fueling issues with a K04? Lots of these guys are running fine with stock injectors and fuel pumps. To be honest, you B8 guys don’t know what fueling issues are until you try to get a B7 to run right with a turbo upgrade. 🤣

[Depthcharge]

I don’t see any reason why you would take the route you’re taking over a K04 to be honest.

I think in this case, doing some experimentation and having someone who is willing to make a hypothesis and then go out in test it is great. We're just adding to the body of knowledge for the cars, so how can it hurt if he's willing to do the testing?
Plus he lives in Marseille, so he probably is doing a lot of lower RPM pulls and cornering and the current turbo is great -- but he's looking for something stronger at low RPM's with those winding roads.
At least we're all here for the ride with what he finds out!

[EvolutionArmory]

I think in this case, doing some experimentation and having someone who is willing to make a hypothesis and then go out in test it is great. We're just adding to the body of knowledge for the cars, so how can it hurt if he's willing to do the testing?
Plus he lives in Marseille, so he probably is doing a lot of lower RPM pulls and cornering and the current turbo is great -- but he's looking for something stronger at low RPM's with those winding roads.
At least we're all here for the ride with what he finds out!

And the K04 does all that really well. Not only that, he also has a transverse motor in that van so it’s not like he can’t just pick up a legit BW OEM K04 anywhere in the EU for cheap and just throw it in.

[Mars2]

I don’t see any reason why you would take the route you’re taking over a K04 to be honest.

A properly set up K04 will give you full spool at 2800, max torque at 3K and over 300 WHP. Why experiment when a K04 with meth or E85 is a tried and true way to get there?

I know there was a myth floating around this subforum for a while that a K04 doesn’t spool quick and a stage 2 tune has better bottom end but that’s a laugh. That probably came about from people not adjusting their K04 wastegates to run 22 PSI before installing them.

And why would you have fueling issues with a K04? Lots of these guys are running fine with stock injectors and fuel pumps. To be honest, you B8 guys don’t know what fueling issues are until you try to get a B7 to run right with a turbo upgrade. 🤣

Because a K04 is not plug and play in MY T6. I will need to cut and weld on the Compressor housing I will also need to fabricate a lot of part. The T6 TSI compressor housing is quite different because of different engine bay.
Like G6 GTI IHI compressor housing is different from B8.
Then with a K04 my car will not look OEM for MOT inspection.
Also I Always like to try different road than mainstream in any thing I do. I'm a designer so may be that explain that.

Capture 2020-02-17 à 18.07.43.jpg

Lay up of the EA888.2 in the T6

Capture 2020-03-10 à 11.43.04.jpg

Yes as you can see also the intake manifold is upside down with Throttle valve facing up to clear the tight engine bay.

[A4x]

APR's published dyno numbers on their properly setup K04 turbo shows less torque than a non-K04 car below 4000 rpm.

A stock IHI JH5 turbo hits full spool at 2400 and max torque around there too. Well below a K04.

[Spawne32]

APR's dyno charts are fake. They are used for marketing purposes only. I would look around for some actual APR dyno sheets or K04 dynos using other tunes.

[A4x]

APR's dyno charts are fake. They are used for marketing purposes only. I would look around for some actual APR dyno sheets or K04 dynos using other tunes.

APR measures on their in-house dyno lol. I don't doubt there are some tricks to embellish their numbers, but it is a fair comparison between APR's published numbers, K04 vs IHI JH5 stage 2.

[Shane Horning]

APR measures on their in-house dyno lol. I don't doubt there are some tricks to embellish their numbers, but it is a fair comparison between APR's published numbers, K04 vs IHI JH5 stage 2.

My brother has same setup as I but apr stage 2 vs I have apr stage 2+ with Ebay k04. We both have same trans so we could try a 4th gear drag from 2k to 4k. That would tell us the difference. I'm guessing it will be very close but be surprised if k03 would be much ahead

Sent from my SM-G935V using Audizine mobile app

[Perry01]

APR's dyno charts are fake. They are used for marketing purposes only. I would look around for some actual APR dyno sheets or K04 dynos using other tunes.

+1

[Traptalk]

APR's dyno charts are fake. They are used for marketing purposes only. I would look around for some actual APR dyno sheets or K04 dynos using other tunes.

In VWVortex everyone claims that apr uses a hub dyno... not a load bearing wheel dyno

[Spawne32]

In VWVortex everyone claims that apr uses a hub dyno... not a load bearing wheel dyno

Correct, but more importantly, those are graphics used to represent an estimated power gain, not the actual dyno charts they get from their testing.

- - - Updated - - -

APR measures on their in-house dyno lol. I don't doubt there are some tricks to embellish their numbers, but it is a fair comparison between APR's published numbers, K04 vs IHI JH5 stage 2.

but that would in fact imply that the numbers are not real would it not? lol

[A4x]

but that would in fact imply that the numbers are not real would it not? lol

The numbers may not be real, but the comparison could still be valid, since both sets of numbers come from APR.

You know I could probably make these graphs from any other tuner and it would show similar results. It's pretty simple physics, bigger turbo = more time to spool. You all refuse to acknowledge it.

[Spawne32]

The numbers may not be real, but the comparison could still be valid, since both sets of numbers come from APR.

You know I could probably make these graphs from any other tuner and it would show similar results. It's pretty simple physics, bigger turbo = more time to spool. You all refuse to acknowledge it.

when did i ever say big turbo doesnt take more time to spool, thats a correct statement, but we are dealing with turbos that are only millimeters larger in terms of wheel size, those differences can easily be made up with lighter wheels or modifying the wheel design.

[EvolutionArmory]

My mistake. Like an ass I ASSumed the motor would be just a plain Jane transverse EA888