Coilovers - Camber Plates - Travel Bump/Droop - My Lessons Learned

[nardoRS]

Where are these pictures showing wheel deflection?

[cantcatchtomm]

Where are these pictures showing wheel deflection?

Both cars that competed in One Lap experienced wheel deflection. They can decide if they want to share pics of their cars.

Here’s what I see in my car for instance...
https://youtu.be/PxV-Q2QhRfc

[Jeff_Jeske]

Where are these pictures showing wheel deflection?

I was referring to this one as I am running -1.7* of camber in the rear and in this picture it looks like +1.7!


You can see it in this one too...

[nardoRS]

Yep, I see that’s quite a deflection! Which parts of the rear suspension do you think are causing this?

[nardoRS]

0A90D7CE-9E01-490B-87C4-8C2D259D17A4.jpeg

I was referring to this one as I am running -1.7* of camber in the rear and in this picture it looks like +1.7!


You can see it in this one too...

Jeff, the attached is the best pic I have under cornering load (this would be around 1.2g on this corner at Croft). I suppose you could say there is some deflection (I’m running -1.4 rear) although these RSe11r’s never seem to show camber the same as my oem wheels. My setup is all oem in the back.

[Jeff_Jeske]

I'm fairly certain the root cause of this is the lower control arm bushing which for me should be resolved in less than a week. I would like to fix it as my next event I'll be on a 275/35-18 Hoosier A7 so things will only get worse.

[nardoRS]

Let us know how it goes!

[Jeff_Jeske]

I won't have time to install these before my first HSAX but I hope to have them on by mid July
HERE IS MY REVIEW OF THE JBX PERFORMANCE SPHERICAL BEARINGS

[BeTTo RS]

I won't have time to install these before my first HSAX but I hope to have them on by mid July

Nice.

What do you think about this?

https://www.verkline.com/shop/seat/l...e-hilfsrahmen/

[Jeff_Jeske]

I'm not sure how that will hold up to daily driving in Wisconsin. Will it rust will it send a ton of NVH into the cabin? Verkline makes decent stuff but it's really for dedicated track cars which mine is not.

[Ross_T_Boss]

I'm not sure how that will hold up to daily driving in Wisconsin. Will it rust will it send a ton of NVH into the cabin? Verkline makes decent stuff but it's really for dedicated track cars which mine is not.

Given it's pretty solidly mounted with deadset inserts I can't see NVH being that much worse, except for the Dogbone mount which I bet adds quite a bit!

Those JXB bushes looks great. The rubber coverings look like they will keep things clean and minimise wear, perfect for those of us who still need to cover some miles. I have the 034 rear trailing arms, I think you'll be really pleased with the difference they make when you load the car up into a turn. I suspect they limit deflection significantly, such is the difference, but that does leave me wondering how much extra stress the arm is loaded with as a result, so plan to ensure the lower arm is beefed up to take it's fair share.

I have Verkline rear lower arm bushes to fit, I plan on testing those later in the summer to see how they are but again those will really benefit from face covers and I'm thinking about moving them on to someone with a 'race car' who probably doesn't care and getting the JXBs there as well. I got powerflex 95A inserts for the upper arms ($20ea x4, why not!) to compliment so should be pretty solid.

Are you planning to do anything with front bushes? Again - JXB set for the OEM front arms - just waiting for the TTRS fitments to be finalised. Not sure it's that necessary, but I've heard some positives regarding NVH being minimal when uprating these bushes so why not.

To the camber topic - any experience with the SuperPro? About 20% cheaper than 034 over here too, otherwise seems similar function and quality. I had planned to utilise Whiteline balljoints to start with but considered your confirmation that the OEM joints already have camber adjustment probably meaning I won't get to 1.6-1.8 with these alone. May as well suck it up and get them sorted.

[Jeff_Jeske]

I am not planning to do anything with the front as things seem fairly solid up there. I also can't really afford to burn any more class points.

I know PeteJ has lots of SuperPro pieces parts on his RS3 as I believe they have a different set of issues to resolve. I probably wouldn't have even done the rear if I hadn't noticed how soft the OEM bushings were.

Once I dial in the "core" like suspension and achieve my goal of some class records then I will entertain getting more serious. It's exciting to know I still have performance enhancing options like haldex controllers, front and rear wavetracs, power mods, aero mods and weight reduction available to me.

Next on my list:
Hoosier A7 (After capturing street tire record)
Stage 2 (Waiting on UNI catted DP)
Light weight front seats (Need more detail on eliminating warning lights)
AP front calipers (Tentative results of CarboTech XP20 pad testing)

[nardoRS]

There’s no doubt that spherical bearings will keep the suspension components in better alignment during heavy loading; my concerns in running them on a dual purpose street/track car are:
1: Potential NVH.
2: Wear. Shock loads will kill spherical bearings (bumpy circuits or streets). The Teflon liners (if they have them) can be popped out and cause premature failure. Some race cars will need to change spherical bearings after one weekend!
3:Maintenance. They will need regular checking.
4: Potentially more shock loads to other components (eg. wheel bearings) rubber bushes absorb and dissipate these loads more than a spherical.

I’ll be sticking with the rubber until I feel a real need to upgrade, then I’ll look at either an upgraded rubber bush or a poly one.
It’s interesting to look at a Porsche GT3 because it’s a benchmark for a street/track car. The suspension uses mainly rubber bushings but they differ from the other 911 models in that they are multi layered with steel reinforcement and hence stiffer. Something like that would be great for a track/street TT!

[cantcatchtomm]

IMG_6175.JPG

I’m in a state where they don’t salt roads and my car is more track oriented now - so I feel more comfortable making the switch to spherical vs others might be.

As for longevity, I trust the seller of these because every event his car is performing at the highest level with multiple drivers putting a beating on it - ie breaking other parts pretty often. He runs what he sells and they’ve survived substantial abuse. Worth a shot if you’re wanting more predictable handling at the limit...

[mtwallace85]

Not sure if this will be a problem or not with what you guys are running, but when I upgraded to spherical bearings (034) for my entire car back when I was driving a B6 S4, I ended up getting some noticeable noises when turning the steering wheel. Kinda hard to describe, but it was like a mashup of a squeak and a moan. Other than that I didn’t notice a terrible amount of added NVH except when driving over certain bumps. When driving on freshly paved roads I felt so connected to the street, though. Definitely a wonderful sensation if you ask me.

[Jeff_Jeske]

Not sure if this will be a problem or not with what you guys are running, but when I upgraded to spherical bearings (034) for my entire car back when I was driving a B6 S4, I ended up getting some noticeable noises when turning the steering wheel. Kinda hard to describe, but it was like a mashup of a squeak and a moan. Other than that I didn’t notice a terrible amount of added NVH except when driving over certain bumps. When driving on freshly paved roads I felt so connected to the street, though. Definitely a wonderful sensation if you ask me.

I'm sort of beta testing ... as these are complete replacements. If they create unwanted noise they will be removed and an alternate solution will be used.

[BeTTo RS]

Hi everyone,

What do you think of these:

https://www.verkline.com/shop/seat/l...e-hilfsrahmen/

And

https://www.verkline.com/shop/seat/l...olf-seat-leon/

[Jeff_Jeske]

Well my Time Attack had good times and bad....

First the good... I broke the Street AWD class record by a little over 3 seconds. The record was at 1:22 flat and I managed to pull off a 1:18.9 so I guess that is acceptable.

Next up the neutral... I didn't have caliper to barrel contact due to heat but I had dozens of rocks, OPR and wheel weights make contact. These 18s are just too tight of clearance for the OEM calipers. With different calipers you will have more clearance.
As for the whether aftermarket calipers are really needed due to heat .... I don't believe so. The weather was in the low 90s so it was blazing hot out. I ran XP20 front pads and XP12 rear pads with SRF fluid and had no issues with soft pedal or fluid boil. I think the OEM calipers are just fine if you manage your car. After a reasonable cool down parade lap the both the rotors and calipers were under 300*. Some cheap harbor freight battery powered fans made quick work of bringing down temps between sessions.

Now the bad... During the HPDE portion of the event I was unable to get a single clean test lap due to slow turds being in the advanced class. Not getting to really push the car like I wanted I ended up getting a false sense of where I could safely brake. To set records at this track you need to both late brake and carry speed. During my first timed run I underestimated my speed and dove way too deep into a high speed corner resulting in four wheels off. I hit a very aggressive rubble strip about mid corner and that launched me into what sounded like a gravel pit. My EVO muscle memory took over and I pinned the throttle to get out of trouble ... which after some rally driving worked well and I returned to the tarmac. Unfortunately this did a real number on my paint, wheels and alignment. Additionally the 275/35-18 actually ended up catching my front fender lip and tearing the aluminum just behind the front bumper. The car didn't throw any codes or physically break so I continued on. My first run was a DNF for going off ... but even with that adventure I ran a 1:20. The next run I could tell the car had some out of round wheels so I dialed it back and ran the 1.18 which I consider to be in limp mode. Easily another one to two seconds out there on a clean run with round wheels.

You gotta pay to play.... But that was approximately a $3000 day. I guess I should be happy that I was able to drive the car home. Looking at the undercarriage today I noticed I had ripped off one of my rear jack pads and my fuel tank had some rock marks on it. If there happened to be a piece of metal laying out there the day could have been much worse.

[Jeff_Jeske]

One other noteworthy piece of info.... If you are driving the car at 90% which means it will be loose, it is noticeably faster with ESC completely off. In sport mode I could feel the nannies still trying to "help" me. Going completely off was just better yet not wild. I was able to slide the car under throttle without intervention of any kind.

[nardoRS]

One other noteworthy piece of info.... If you are driving the car at 90% which means it will be loose, it is noticeably faster with ESC completely off. In sport mode I could feel the nannies still trying to "help" me. Going completely off was just better yet not wild. I was able to slide the car under throttle without intervention of any kind.

Well done with your class record but sorry to hear about your “off”!!
Good to hear your brakes held up with the stock calipers, maybe the bigger AP discs on the essex kit help (I am on 362x32 which is the old TT cup spec).
What track were you at and got any video to share Jeff?

[Jeff_Jeske]

I was at BlackHawk Farms Raceway. I might have some video of the screw up, I haven't checked the GoPro yet. I can tell you the XP20 pads provide MUCH more initial bite than the DS1.11s I had been running. The 1.11s have more modulation for sub 70mph autox where the XP20s are on/off at lower speeds but I am certain that the 1.11s would have caused even more grief on this day.

[q74]

What tires were you running on that day? I see you mention running 275 width. Brake temps I think are going to be a result of a mixture of a few things, the track, tires, pads, and ofc the brakes rotors/calipers themselves.

The 8 pots I bear aren't a great track day caliper, but they should hold up for most pad/tire/track combos. Oh, if you did any logging, was were the maximum braking G's were you seeing on your combo that day?

Sucks about the off, but it happens to everyone and hey, you got to drive away and countine on track even.

[Jeff_Jeske]

Thanks. These were new but scrubbed in RE71R Stones. Here is a data grab at the end of my 1.95 mile lap. On the lower half you will see the dotted line is just past the finish line that was crossed at 131.5MPH. The data shows 1.02G while slowing down from 131mph to 110mph at this point in time. On the right of the lower screen you will see a dotted circle that is the YOU ARE HERE circle and you can see it's at the end of the front straight. The upper map is just to show the layout a bit better ... all the infield stuff is me taking my cool down cruise and returning to my pit. I can achieve higher G at slower speeds but this is what the final brake zone looks like during a panic stop. The other brake zones didn't always require 100% braking. The car doesn't like it when you ninja kick the pedal its needs some foreplay to behave correctly. You can double click on these to make them bigger.

[neogeo07]

Hi everyone,

What do you think of these:

https://www.verkline.com/shop/seat/l...e-hilfsrahmen/

And

https://www.verkline.com/shop/seat/l...olf-seat-leon/

I'd love for someone to try these! They look almost too good to be true? The front tubular subframe sounds awesome from their description, and it only cost a grand?? My rear seat delete cover cost more than that and that's just wood and alcantara. ;)

[BeTTo RS]

I'd love for someone to try these! They look almost too good to be true? The front tubular subframe sounds awesome from their description, and it only cost a grand?? My rear seat delete cover cost more than that and that's just wood and alcantara. ;)

Yes, it looks fantastic!

[Jeff_Jeske]

Verkline makes fantastic go fast parts for race cars. Albert (the owner) is also extremely knowledgeable. Just an all around good guy. What worries me about his race sub-frames is longevity and noise. Living in Wisconsin my car will suffer from the affects of weather and road salt. I also do not want humming, buzzing or thumping while using the car as a daily driver. I'm hoping Jays parts do not increase NVH and I feel good about how he protected his spherical bearings. As with the rear spherical top mounts if they make noise I will remove them. Right now the car is dead silent on the highway with no perceivable NVH from any mounts, inserts or springs.

[BeTTo RS]

Verkline makes fantastic go fast parts for race cars. Albert (the owner) is also extremely knowledgeable. Just an all around good guy. What worries me about his race sub-frames is longevity and noise. Living in Wisconsin my car will suffer from the affects of weather and road salt. I also do not want humming, buzzing or thumping while using the car as a daily driver. I'm hoping Jays parts do not increase NVH and I feel good about how he protected his spherical bearings. As with the rear spherical top mounts if they make noise I will remove them. Right now the car is dead silent on the highway with no perceivable NVH from any mounts, inserts or springs.

👌🏻

[Jeff_Jeske]

With help from PeteJ we were able to finish up the install of the JXB trailing arms and lower control arms today. There was a stiffening feeling of rear that was immediately noticed. From my initial 30 minute test drive I didn't detect any additional NVH. I have an alignment scheduled for Thursday and a state wide track attack event on Friday. I'll post my results and feedback here but I will likely start a new JXB thread for awareness and attention.

[Ross_T_Boss]

With help from PeteJ we were able to finish up the install of the JXB trailing arms and lower control arms today. There was a stiffening feeling of rear that was immediately noticed. From my initial 30 minute test drive I didn't detect any additional NVH. I have an alignment scheduled for Thursday and a state wide track attack event on Friday. I'll post my results and feedback here but I will likely start a new JXB thread for awareness and attention.

That's some good preliminary info, especially with regard to NVH, looking forward to your feedback from the track event. I'm hoping to pull the bushes from the LCA without fully removing it but looks like you went for the straight swap?

I'm also fitting this stuff with expectation it may become high maintenance or require down-grading at some point, initially I have been looking to follow other's lead and just replace the components that are an easy swap or follow the 80/20 rule, but there's not much info out there for the daily driver who wants to retain comfort (and that gets boring and is often subjective anyway).

Good idea on the JXB thread, I think his stuff will do really well on MQB cars. I've seen Albert's work for many years on older I5 cars and the quality is there, I do like the Verkline stuff, just wish there was more protection for the rear bushes (I have a set) and really like Jay's solution for that also, making it more palatable for our non-race cars!

[Jeff_Jeske]

I did the full swap to expedite install. The Trailing arm bushings are pretty well protected. I flipped the inner LCA bolt around to make future removal a bit less busy work. This time I had to undo the exhaust hangers and such to make room to remove the bolt.

[ns2g8tr]

I'm in the process of installing my JRI suspension as well. I really believe pulling the axle bolt is the best approach.

The sequence I use is:

With car on ground break the axle bolt free
Jack up the car remove wheel, remove caliper, remove rotor, remove sway bar endlinks, remove headlight leveler, Remove upright clamping bolt, remove three nuts from lower control arm, remove three "connected" bolts.
Once those are done you can swing the entire hub down and out to give enough room to remove the strut. The real MFr is spreading that upright enough to freely remove or insert the strut. That kicks my butt every time. I have started using two spreaders.

I'm not sure what size springs I need to use so I have a variety. Initial roll out will likely not leverage the helper spring in the front.

Just out of curiosity did you ever try just unbolting the bottom strut housing bolt and dropping it down the control arm assembly? This was a pain on the MK7R, but both the RS3 and TTRs have shorter shock bodies and make this simple. I just unbolt the headlight sensor bracket (10mm), brake line bracket(10mm), sway bar endlink, and then remove bottom strut bolt. Once it's lowered down remove the 3 strut tower bolts and remove assembly. Great information here, we just recently picked up a ttrs and already have an RS3. Have been looking for camber plates myself, I have the GC plates on the RS3 and absolutely love them.

[Jeff_Jeske]

^ For whatever reason I couldn't get the strut out of the spindle until I removed the axle bolt. There is very little droop even with all the minor parts disconnected. After doing it a couple times now I am convinced that (for me) pulling the axle bolt is the best approach. With an impact gun for removal and long breaker bar for that last twist on install it's really not a big deal. I always replace the bolts with new bolts but I know a few others have been reusing theirs without issue. Mine have not come loose even after heavy tracking with extremely high temps.

If you are looking for camber plates I have an offer .... I am moving from the "max travel" GC plate to the "max camber" GC plate. I would be more than happy to cut you a good deal on the "max travel" version I am removing.

[Jeff_Jeske]

Attachment 184255

If you want to upgrade the rear without massive increases in NVH, the 034 arms/links were an improvement over stock. I’m more tolerant of NVH now that my car is no longer a daily and more purpose-built, so my plan is to replace with more sphericals. I have the front Verkline arms and there is more NVH to go along with significantly more connection to the road...

I'm thinking the 034 arms and links may be my next mod. My goals for next season is to fit a 295/30-19 Hoosier front and rear. In the rear I know I will need to "pull the wheel inward" and then adjust via arms rather than bolts. I'm currently running 265/35-19 Hoosiers but I need to fit another 1.5" of rubber back there!

[Jeff_Jeske]

Another follow up on the New GC MAX camber plates.... As of today these come with a different spring perch that includes a rubber isolator to reduce NVH on the Golf platform. We do not suffer from the same noises they do so technically we don't want to use that perch. When ordering be sure to ask for the original 2.5" spring perch otherwise you will be eating into the available shock travel. You will want the OG gray perch not the new red one with rubber piece. Here are some pics that shows the difference a bit better.

[mikemounlio]

SO what is the best option right now as far as coilovers goes? Im into autocross as of now.

[Jeff_Jeske]

That depends on your budget and how serious you are.

Honestly for 90% of the people that just want to have fun. You could get 034 springs, 034 camber plates and a 034 rear sway bar and kick 90% of the competitions ass.

The brain matter in the ECU/ESC/TCU is light years better than most platforms. I seriously think my wife could break track records with this car. It is just that good. It covers up mistakes and in most cases will prevent you hurting yourself.

[mikemounlio]

That depends on your budget and how serious you are.

Honestly for 90% of the people that just want to have fun. You could get 034 springs, 034 camber plates and a 034 rear sway bar and kick 90% of the competitions ass.

The brain matter in the ECU/ESC/TCU is light years better than most platforms. I seriously think my wife could break track records with this car. It is just that good. It covers up mistakes and in most cases will prevent you hurting yourself.

Funny you say that. I just installed all the 034 parts you mentioned. Well im in the process of it. The rear is done. I am waiting on my camber plates to install the fronts. I also picked up the 034 wheels and some potenza re71r.

In the future i plan to go to coilovers.

[mikemounlio]

I am waiting on the camber plates to be mailed. 034 is working on them now. I am very excited to see how the car does with a bit of camber in the front as well as that solid sway bar. The rear is done and it feels so much more planted at this time. Front is still stock so its a bit weird at the minute but i can already feel the rear is better.

MY 1st autocross in the car i was 3rd and my codriver 2nd to a new 718 driven by a very good driver. I really want to best his lap time tho.

What all would you suggest? My plan at the minute is pretty much a full 034 setup. Will have the car at an apr dealer to get a proper alignment done as as soon the camber plates are installed.

What street/autocross alignment setting would you suggest? Thanks for all the help

[Jeff_Jeske]

I have a TTRS with more stiffening and camber adjustment so mine will be slightly different. But this platform is starved of camber. The 034 plates are a good start but you will likely encounter understeer and have to restrict cornering speed due to limited camber up front. If you do plan autox on a regular basis I would recommend Ground Control plates.

For the RS3 many people add a touch of toe out in the rear to help with rotation. On my TTRS I like a touch of toe in as the shorter wheelbase is more likely to try to kill me thru high speed sweepers. For the rear I like to run about 1 degree less negative camber in the back as I run in the front. Again much of this depends on the parts you are running. A safe setting is always -1.5* in the rear, more if you need to fit a wider wheel.

[mikemounlio]

I will start off with the 034 setup and see how that does. Im sure i will make adjustments as time goes on tho.

It is still a street driven car so i think no more then -3 in the front.