Coilovers - Camber Plates - Travel Bump/Droop - My Lessons Learned

[Jeff_Jeske]

ok, now that I'm getting into the job of swapping the fronts, the first page of this thread is making a lot more sense than it did before :-)

I think the issue with the KW camber plates may be that they're difficult-to-impossible to adjust without enlarging the center hole of the strut tower...not legal for ST class autox :(

My advice is to run maximum camber and call it a day. The left to right differences don't really matter. The most important piece is to get the toe dialed in. After having messed with multiple plates my findings are they all are run and max negative camber.

In my case the tower punch is required to make room for the compression and rebound knob that protrudes or make contact with the tower.

[cantcatchtomm]

ok, now that I'm getting into the job of swapping the fronts, the first page of this thread is making a lot more sense than it did before :-)

I think the issue with the KW camber plates may be that they're difficult-to-impossible to adjust without enlarging the center hole of the strut tower...not legal for ST class autox :(

Just buy this, swap over suspension and other goodies and sell the thing. That’s my advice :)

IMG_5761.jpg

[cantcatchtomm]

Or @pylons, since you also have a TT and not an S or RS then buy the prebuilt car and win instantly in STH / return your car to stock and sell.

...Unless you want to build something of your own, which I totally respect (but you’ll have headaches like the one you’re having now with not being able to remove material from the strut tower).

[Pylons]

My advice is to run maximum camber and call it a day. The left to right differences don't really matter. The most important piece is to get the toe dialed in. After having messed with multiple plates my findings are they all are run and max negative camber.

In my case the tower punch is required to make room for the compression and rebound knob that protrudes or make contact with the tower.

how much have you found "max" to be across various setups?

[Pylons]

Or @pylons, since you also have a TT and not an S or RS then buy the prebuilt car and win instantly in STH / return your car to stock and sell.

...Unless you want to build something of your own, which I totally respect (but you’ll have headaches like the one you’re having now with not being able to remove material from the strut tower).

had I known about your car being for sale before I bought mine, I might have bought it. At this point, I'm sold on build-my-own. Tune is on, intercooler in. suspension partly done, downpipe in the garage...

[cantcatchtomm]

had I known about your car being for sale before I bought mine, I might have bought it. At this point, I'm sold on build-my-own. Tune is on, intercooler in. suspension partly done, downpipe in the garage...

Not my car - mines an SM TTRS.

As far as camber, I’m at -3.5 front and -2 rear with zero front toe and a tiny bit of rear toe in. I copied the STH TT I sent you with MCS 2WR dampers and 600/900# springs but GC camber plates since I can modify strut towers in SM. With those settings the TT rotates like crazy and loves to oversteer (the owner of the STH car came from an XP RX7).

Totally understand where you’re coming from! Good stuff and hopefully you’ll have some events out there soon.

[Jeff_Jeske]

how much have you found "max" to be across various setups?

I'm guessing you will be at -2.5 max but you have some adjustability via the lower control arm ends.

[Pylons]

Got it done yesterday. Getting those front struts out sure was a bitch...although the 2nd one didn't take that long after all the lessons learned from the first.

Love the car with the KW's on it. Car certainly is stiffer, but that only seems like a negative on the worst bumps I hit. Definite increase in road noise...apparently all that rubber in the stock top mounts really does deaden some things. The car feels much more connected to the road. I feel like I know much better what the car (mostly the front tires) is doing now...much of the vagueness/isolation is gone. Before, it often felt like the suspension was the limiting factor in handling...now, at least with my non-competition tires, it's clearly the tires that are limiting.

I ended up going with not-quite-maximum camber on the plates in order to maintain access to the rebound adjustment without drilling. I'll probably check later today to see how much camber that is...have to switch to smaller diameter wheels to use my camber gauge. Will check toe as well. I'll be getting it professionally aligned, but curious to see where it sits now. I was surprised that nothing felt out of whack driving it.

I basically put all the spring perches in the middle of the range of adjustment, which netted a decrease of about an inch in ride height. Before, hub to fender lip was about 14.5" (give or take 1/8") all around...now it's about 13.5". There appears to be room to go lower, but not sure there's any benefit to that.

Also guessing I'm going to want more rear stiffness through springs and/or swaybar.

And the front swaybar is bound up in the bushings/brackets like crazy...it might as well be welded in there...wouldn't rotate at all. I'd like to fix that, but access to those fasteners is not exactly easy.

[Jeff_Jeske]

Well done! Did you pull the axle bolts or try to compress the springs to remove the shocks? I pulled the axle bolts and that make it easier.... not easy.

[Pylons]

Well done! Did you pull the axle bolts or try to compress the springs to remove the shocks? I pulled the axle bolts and that make it easier.... not easy.

I disconnected the inboard end of the axle on the passenger side, but decided that wasn't helping and reconnected before I got the strut out. I did disconnect the lower arm at the ball joint.

I couldn't get the "2x4 method" to work as I saw it described in internet lore. I ended up putting one end of a similar piece of wood on the underside of the spring perch and beating like hell with a deadblow mallet on the other end.

[Pylons]

Camber in the front is at -3.3 and -3.7. Rear is at -3.2 and -2.2.

Ton of toe out up front...nearly an inch. A hair of toe in in the rear.

Have to decide if I want to mess with ride height before I get it aligned (and I guess I might mess with the front LCA's on my own too to see if I can gain any).

[Jeff_Jeske]

I'm in the process of installing my JRI suspension as well. I really believe pulling the axle bolt is the best approach.

The sequence I use is:

With car on ground break the axle bolt free
Jack up the car remove wheel, remove caliper, remove rotor, remove sway bar endlinks, remove headlight leveler, Remove upright clamping bolt, remove three nuts from lower control arm, remove three "connected" bolts.
Once those are done you can swing the entire hub down and out to give enough room to remove the strut. The real MFr is spreading that upright enough to freely remove or insert the strut. That kicks my butt every time. I have started using two spreaders.

I'm not sure what size springs I need to use so I have a variety. Initial roll out will likely not leverage the helper spring in the front.

[Jeff_Jeske]

And the front swaybar is bound up in the bushings/brackets like crazy...it might as well be welded in there...wouldn't rotate at all. I'd like to fix that, but access to those fasteners is not exactly easy.

That is not normal. On my car when the endlinks are removed the front sway bar moves fairly freely. That being said you really need adjustable endlinks to corner balance the car. Once lowered down and passenger seat is loaded up with with my weights one of my adjustable endlinks is about 3/4" different than the other. If it wasn't there would be a bunch of mismatch preload on those ends.

[Pylons]

I'm in the process of installing my JRI suspension as well. I really believe pulling the axle bolt is the best approach.

The sequence I use is:

With car on ground break the axle bolt free
Jack up the car remove wheel, remove caliper, remove rotor, remove sway bar endlinks, remove headlight leveler, Remove upright clamping bolt, remove three nuts from lower control arm, remove three "connected" bolts.
Once those are done you can swing the entire hub down and out to give enough room to remove the strut. The real MFr is spreading that upright enough to freely remove or insert the strut. That kicks my butt every time. I have started using two spreaders.

After my lessons learned on one side, I removed the other how you describe, but without disconnecting the axle or removing a caliper or rotor. Stock strut just barely comes out that way, but it comes out. The KW's are a bit shorter overall and go in/out fairly easily.

[Pylons]

That is not normal. On my car when the endlinks are removed the front sway bar moves fairly freely. That being said you really need adjustable endlinks to corner balance the car. Once lowered down and passenger seat is loaded up with with my weights one of my adjustable endlinks is about 3/4" different than the other. If it wasn't there would be a bunch of mismatch preload on those ends.

Yeah, I've worked on a lot of suspensions on a lot of cars and I've never seen one so bound up. I think I could've lifted the whole front end of the car by the ends of the bar without it rotating.

The KW's came with a pair of shorter-than-stock endlinks as the KW endlink mount is lower on the strut body than OEM. Adjustable would be better though.

[Jeff_Jeske]

Did you find that the left and right rear fender gaps were a bit of a pain to dial in? The weight distribution of the US left hand drive TTRS is not optimal. My rear adjusters are a full inch different from one another with the rear passenger side sill a bit higher than the drives side.

[Pylons]

Did you find that the left and right rear fender gaps were a bit of a pain to dial in? The weight distribution of the US left hand drive TTRS is not optimal. My rear adjusters are a full inch different from one another with the rear passenger side sill a bit higher than the drives side.

I haven't looked at ride height all that closely yet, but quick measurement in the rear had the sides pretty close, I think, with both perches in the middle of the adjustment range.

I did install a 4-post lift over the last couple days, so I'll be back to work on the TT soon

[Jeff_Jeske]

I managed to sort out my left to right differences. At my lowest setting I can still fit a 275/35-18 RE71R on a 9.5" rim.

[Jeff_Jeske]

I've had a couple people message asking how the final shock tower and camber plates worked out. I don't have any complaints though I wasn't able to achieve a full -3* of camber without modifying the plates (which I haven't done). In the picture below you can see the leading crown of the camber plate is what is preventing me from gaining additional camber. For those of you still shopping for camber plates I suggest you hold off for another month as Ground Control will be releasing an Audi specific plate that addresses ALL OF THE ISSUES uncovered during this process. For those of you not wanting more than -2.5* of camber it won't change anything but for the track whores the new plates will provide longer bolt slots, a shorter inner leading edge, a crown reduction and less edge curvature where it's not needed.

[mugenr]

Camber in the front is at -3.3 and -3.7. Rear is at -3.2 and -2.2.

Ton of toe out up front...nearly an inch. A hair of toe in in the rear.

Have to decide if I want to mess with ride height before I get it aligned (and I guess I might mess with the front LCA's on my own too to see if I can gain any).

Can you show a picture of the front tower and strut clearance with camber added? I'd love to see how tight the strut pokes out or if it stays below the tower. Also, how tight is it to adjust rebound?

I currently have MSS track kit/Magride with Eurosport camber kit on my RS3. the Eurosport camber kits offer a mild camber, I'm getting -2.1. but with more camber, I'm not sure how you could adjust rebound.
I'm looking at the the KW clubsports as I think the KWv3s maybe too soft for my liking judging by their spring rates. I daily the RS3 as well as 6-8 track days per year.



Thanks!

[Pylons]

I'll try to remember to grab some pics later today. Hoping to do some corner weighting. Looks similar to what you've posted though. Although the KW rebound adjustment is smaller/slimmer, so you can push the envelope on the strut tower opening a touch more.

[BeTTo RS]

Can you show a picture of the front tower and strut clearance with camber added? I'd love to see how tight the strut pokes out or if it stays below the tower. Also, how tight is it to adjust rebound?

I currently have MSS track kit/Magride with Eurosport camber kit on my RS3. the Eurosport camber kits offer a mild camber, I'm getting -2.1. but with more camber, I'm not sure how you could adjust rebound.
I'm looking at the the KW clubsports as I think the KWv3s maybe too soft for my liking judging by their spring rates. I daily the RS3 as well as 6-8 track days per year.



Thanks!

I believe that KW has a Magnetic Ride option for the RS-3; meanwhile they don’t have one for the TT-RS. I think that could be a good option. Or are you planning on using a cancellation kit?

[mugenr]

I believe that KW has a Magnetic Ride option for the RS-3; meanwhile they don’t have one for the TT-RS. I think that could be a good option. Or are you planning on using a cancellation kit?

The electronic coilover kit from KW for the RS3 doesn't get plugged into the car. it's not used by the dynamic controls that come with magride. It uses it's own ECU which is either controlled by a additional button you install in the car for 3 basic modes (comfort, sport and sport+) or with a additional purchase of a WLAN unit that let's you wirelessly connect to it with your phone and control it that way. if you do get the WLAN unit you can change the rebound and compression manually as well. Still need the cancellation kit with those. They also come with slightly softer springs than the V3 kit front and rear.
The electronic version (DDC) comes with 43N/mm front springs and 60N/mm rears.
The V3 comes with 55N/mm fronts and 63N/mm rears.

Both kits are progressive up front and linear in the rear.

[BeTTo RS]

The electronic coilover kit from KW for the RS3 doesn't get plugged into the car. it's not used by the dynamic controls that come with magride. It uses it's own ECU which is either controlled by a additional button you install in the car for 3 basic modes (comfort, sport and sport+) or with a additional purchase of a WLAN unit that let's you wirelessly connect to it with your phone and control it that way. if you do get the WLAN unit you can change the rebound and compression manually as well. Still need the cancellation kit with those. They also come with slightly softer springs than the V3 kit front and rear.
The electronic version (DDC) comes with 43N/mm front springs and 60N/mm rears.
The V3 comes with 55N/mm fronts and 63N/mm rears.

Both kits are progressive up front and linear in the rear.

Thanks for letting me know!

[Jeff_Jeske]

Just to comment on spring rates and such. It's not just the spring rate that matters. When I was running my Ohlins custom valved for 10K springs, 2k more than off the shelf, it felt too soft even on the stiffest setting. That is mainly because the shock pressure was fairly low and the car was riding more on the spring than the shock itself. My JRI shocks are at 200PSI and have much broader range of valving. The end result, after some dialing in, is better compliance when the spring rate, shock rebound and shock compression are aligned.

So far I haven't had any issues with the isweep magride cancellation kit so don't be afraid to use it. In fact I'm swapping the top mounts on the JRI shocks this weekend, so right now, I'm running cancelers in the front and OEM shocks in the back ha ha. The OEM magride shocks are managing the 430LB rear springs just fine.

[Jeff_Jeske]

Also, though there are some difference between the RS3 and TTRS a quality aftermarket coilover designed for the RS3 will work just fine on the TTRS. The problem comes when the coilovers are designed for the MK7 and retrofitted to the Audi which is the case with the Ohlins DFV. Then many things are just not quite right from sway bar mount point, to droop/bump travel, to ride height adjustment range.

So far people have had the best luck with KW3 which is great for the street, the KW ClubSport which should be a happy medium for split duty street and track and for full blown highly customizable track suspension that is also tolerable on the street you have JRI, JRZ and MCS.

[Jeff_Jeske]

Conversion from race inspired spherical to OEM rear shock mounts complete. Ultimate Performance turn around time was 2 days. So far I've been impressed with their product support.

[Pylons]

I put stiffer rear springs (571lb) in on Monday along with the 034 rear bar.

Charlotte Pro Solo this weekend...first test! Looks like it might be kinda damp though, so I'm not sure how much I'll learn.

[cantcatchtomm]

I put stiffer rear springs (571lb) in on Monday along with the 034 rear bar.

Charlotte Pro Solo this weekend...first test! Looks like it might be kinda damp though, so I'm not sure how much I'll learn.

Good stuff. If it’s damp you have an even better chance of winning some tires. Good luck, drive fast, and keep us posted. I’m planning to go from 900# rear springs to 700#, lots of recommendations were in the 600# range so you should be happy.

[Jeff_Jeske]

Good stuff. If it’s damp you have an even better chance of winning some tires. Good luck, drive fast, and keep us posted. I’m planning to go from 900# rear springs to 700#, lots of recommendations were in the 600# range so you should be happy.

I'll be testing the 550LB rear springs this Friday. My shocks have 200PSI and after the math that works out to about an extra 60LBS of spring. I went from a 430LB 8" spring to a 550LB 7" with helper.

[Pylons]

Practice starts today. Car is a rocket in a straight line. Hopefully the whole turning thing goes well tomorrow.

[Pylons]

Pretty good inaugural effort so far.

http://sololive.scca.com/S4.php

Still adapting my driving style to turbo/AWD, but liking the results.

[cantcatchtomm]

Pretty good inaugural effort so far.

http://sololive.scca.com/S4.php

Still adapting my driving style to turbo/AWD, but liking the results.

Great work! Very impressive. That’s more Audi representation than I’ve ever seen. Jay’s S4 ok? Edit: saw it was a clutch replacement.

[Pylons]

Thanks. Ended up 3rd. Got passed by a couple guys during the Saturday morning session, but picked up just enough on my last run to take 3rd back. Very happy with the maiden voyage. I'll probably tweak shock settings and maybe alignment, but I think the setup is pretty solid.

Jay did replace the clutch Friday night. Then they discovered a fuel leak Saturday morning. Tough weekend.

[Jeff_Jeske]

The 550LB rear was absolutely perfect for my event. My 550LB fronts seemed to be getting the squeeze in high camber turns though. I'm still running stock sways. The rear certainly could benefit from spherical lower control and trailing arm bushings.

The 275/35/18 RE71R tires felt great and I experienced no rubbing or odd behavior.



I managed to take the overall win and set a new track record. I'm not sure how long that will stand as there were some serious cars out and they didn't seem pleased about the beat down. I don't plan to turn mine into a bucket of bolts so it's about as fast as it can get unless I switch over to hoosiers and find some elegant weight reduction like lightweight seats. Below is a link to some of the other track night pics. Next fastest car was a 2006 supercharged Mustang running brand new Hoosier 315s in the front and 345's in the rear!

https://www.mdmracepix.com/Jefferson...7XRUTLDIBKqkO0

[Ross_T_Boss]

Nice going, lots of good info here. What are you using right now for rear bushes, still OEM or poly? Seeing the flex in Peter's rear lower arms even with Poly is quite alarming, and no wonder the rear can feel like it has a mind of it's own under high-G. And I'm not even on R-comps.

It's now 'good enough' for me with just the spherical rear trailing arm bushing, but I have a set of Verkline sphericals for the lower arm, so going to fit those and see how it is for NVH. If it's too much I will down-grade the outer. The uppers I have a set of 95A powerflex to throw in.

The rear trailing arm bushes from JXB Performance seem a good value option, half the price of other options. I like that they have dust boots too so likely to out-last other options, thinking to fit a pair on my OEM arms and hold as spares. I'm totally sold on these even if it becomes a 20-30k service item.

It's interesting that everyone finds such high camber street-friendly on this platform? I will likely fit the 034 plates, may try the Eurocode insert instead, combined with Whiteline balljoints that combination would give me similar gains. Front Sphericals from JXB will help reduce camber change in cornering too, so I'll see what I can get with balljoints only first.

[Jeff_Jeske]

Right now I'm 100% OEM in the back. I have a set of Jay's trailing and LCAs on order though. I am a bit nervous about NVH from those as well because that spherical rear top mount was ridiculously noisy.

My battle with what to do next is based on points assignment in the class I want to run. I take points for bushings so doing those will rob me off the opportunity to do sway bars, aero or weight reduction.

My original plan was to fill the OEM bushings with 3M window weld or JB weld but I suspect the results would be somewhat unpredictable.

[cantcatchtomm]

IMG_5570.JPG

If you want to upgrade the rear without massive increases in NVH, the 034 arms/links were an improvement over stock. I’m more tolerant of NVH now that my car is no longer a daily and more purpose-built, so my plan is to replace with more sphericals. I have the front Verkline arms and there is more NVH to go along with significantly more connection to the road...

[nardoRS]

Those JXB bushings really do look the business but I’m just not sure how most will happily live with them on the street.
To be honest I’ve never felt the suspension to be vague; yes it’s got give but acts predictably so gives confidence. Of course taking weight out makes everything less stressed.

[Jeff_Jeske]

Those JXB bushings really do look the business but I’m just not sure how most will happily live with them on the street.
To be honest I’ve never felt the suspension to be vague; yes it’s got give but acts predictably so gives confidence. Of course taking weight out makes everything less stressed.

I agree with that. I don't feel the rear coming unglued but the pictures with positive camber pretty much predict a forthcoming bushing failure.