Experienced 2.0 folks, what does this engine noise tell you?

[FatMongo]

Im currently starting the process of diagnosing the issue(s) with the B7 I recently bought. The car has 185K with a uncertain maintenance history. The CEL for P0011 is on. The engine has good compression 160-180 psi on each cylinder. Im getting ready to get into this engine today, going to pull the HPFP and inspect the follower and the rear timing cover off to inspect the chain or tensioner. I have previously replaced the N205. I had the car out for about 20 miles of spirited driving a couple nights ago and now the engine is very noisy. At first I thought i had spun a bearing or bent a rod, but it doesnt sound like rod knock. Does this seem like a loose cam chain to anyone?

Cold start:


UPDATE 12/31/2020 - cold start after engine rebuild:


At idle:


UPDATE 12/31/2020 - idle after engine rebuild:


At idle inside the car:


Just for comparison, here is what an old Ford motor in which a timing chain tensioner failed sounded like (I know these are two vastly different engine):



Here's how loose the chain one side was of that motor:



Any input welcome.

[Charles.waite]

Could be a shot pump/follower or chain tensioner.

Or nothing. These engines are noisy as hell...

[texadelphia]

The machine gun pace makes me think hpfp or cam follower, if anything. My failing tensioner didn't sound like that but it also wasn't an extreme failure. It was still holding some amount of tension and the guides were fully intact.

Before:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NupXIhapmgU

After:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VO8tIF5sOU

[EvolutionArmory]

Press on the vacuum hose that goes to the top of the vacuum pump and see if the noise goes away.

Or look at the hose and see if it’s jumping up and down.

[Theiceman]

oh boy i would not be starting that again .. i think removing the timing cover will reveal all..

[FatMongo]

Gents,

I pulled off the HPFP and the valve cover to look inside and to check the cam follower. Cam follower looked decent. Didnt have time to do the timing cover and back cover. However, when I went to put everything together and start the car, the car seems like its not getting fuel its barely choppping along. The only thing I can think of that I might've messed up is when I was removing the banjo bolt fuel line to the HPFP, the actual fitting from the HPFP came out (as opposed to just the banjo bolt) when I pulled the HPFP off, it felt like something fell out of the cavity between the fitting and the HPFP - however, I didnt see anything becuase my head was contorted, Does anyone know if there are spacers or o-rings within the HPFP (where the yellow colored fitting screws into)?

[FatMongo]

Lol.

The giant vacuum leak created by me not connecting one of the PCV hoses was the cuplrit for that one.

[FatMongo]

Could be a shot pump/follower or chain tensioner.

Or nothing. These engines are noisy as hell...

Not a pump or follower. Pulled those of today and they looked good.

[MALMGRDC]

https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...t-is-this-part

Check out this thread regarding the lost part. There is a washer that goes between the fitting and the HPFP.

[FatMongo]

https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...t-is-this-part

Check out this thread regarding the lost part. There is a washer that goes between the fitting and the HPFP.

Wow. This place (AZ) is awesome. So much knowledge.

Thanks - that is exactly what I was talking about.

[esandes]

I never had a sound like that. I had the follower fail twice and the engine sounded normal.

[MALMGRDC]

Glad to help!

[FatMongo]

Alright folks,

Wasnt able to make a whole lot of progress diagnosing the car. I still have yet to pull the front and rear covers off to check the cam chain and timing belt. I did do a quick oil change to see how things looked and while nearly 5 qts of oil came out, there was what appeared to be metallic swirls in the oil. I scooped up a sample and have sent it to to Blackstone for analysis. The best case scenario is that the metal is from light scoring from the HPFP. Unfortunately, the HPFP and follower looked fine when I looked at them a few days ago so its unlikely that they have been generating metal shavings.

Anyway, I would like to take a mechanical reading of the oil pressure as now I want to see what the status of the oil pump is before I put much more money and effort in parts around the motor. However, when I went to take a reading by removing the oil pressure sensor, I had a hell of a time trying to screw my cheap oil pressure gauge hose into the hole that the sensor goes into - its just too small and the hose is too long to be able to thread into the hole. Is there any other spot on the engine, when I can hook up a mechanical gauge to in order to get an oil pressure reading? I seem to remember reading there was some type of nipple by the oil filter assembly, but I didnt see anything.

Anyway, I want to get an idea of oil pressure before I venture too far down the path of doing other things to this engine. If the oil pump looks likes its done for, I'll start making plans to pull the engine.

[EvolutionArmory]

Are you still hearing a noise that you don’t like? Did you even check the vacuum pump hose nipple for movement yet like I mentioned in post 4?

When the O ring gets worn that nipple and hose can make all kinds of noises when it bounces around in the vacuum pump. Sounds like a sewing machine or worse. Always check the simplest things first.

[EvolutionArmory]

If this is your issue you don’t have to replace the whole pump or JB Weld it like this guy does. You can buy a vacuum pump reseal kit for these now.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RFUYwEzIq18

[FatMongo]

Are you still hearing a noise that you don’t like? Did you even check the vacuum pump hose nipple for movement yet like I mentioned in post 4?

When the O ring gets worn that nipple and hose can make all kinds of noises when it bounces around in the vacuum pump. Sounds like a sewing machine or worse. Always check the simplest things first.

Yes, the noise is mechanical and internal. I was certain it was the cam chain until I saw the oil, now I think it is as likely a bearing as the chain. I am 100% certain its not the vacuum pump hose (I did check it).

[EvolutionArmory]

👍🏻

[Theiceman]

your cheap gauge is not the correct thread....

read this in its entirety.

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...t=oil+pressure

[FatMongo]

your cheap gauge is not the correct thread....

read this in its entirety.

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...t=oil+pressure

Well, in reality, it is the correct thread. As you can see, the fitting has a 1.00 pitch thread:

[IMG]IMG_2315 by emanookian, on Flickr[/IMG]

I simply wasnt able to get enough space to twist the mass of hose and gauge in the constricted area in a manner that would allow the fitting+hose+gauge to thread in. I will try again after removing the bracket that holds the two electrical connectors near the oil cooler.

Thanks for the link - it looks informative.

[FatMongo]

So not the best oil pressure readings i dont think...

When I first started the car on a dead cold start, I had some kind of weird vacuum leak that I think was caused when i disconnected the hose to the vacuum pump when I was hooking up my pressure gauge. Im not sure exactly what it was, but sounded like a vacuum leak and the car was surging and missing. I fiddled with the various hoses and the engine settled down. On the cold start the pressure shot to 60 psi and slowly started coming down with a jumpy gauge. After nearly 10 minutes, it settled in about 18 psi. I call this a 'cold' idle. However after 10 minutes of idling, it *may* have been at 80* as the spec calls for:



A rev to 2K rpm when 'cold' got me to ~ 65 psi



3K when 'cold' looks like it touches 85 psi:



Unfortunately, here is hot idle at 12 psi, with a rev to 2K producing about 42 psi and 3k getting around 70 psi. This is after about 20 minutes of running:

[FatMongo]

So, clearly I dont have perfect oil pressure. But depdending on the engine temp, i may be in our out of spec at idle and looks like Im in spec at 2K and 3K rpm both cold and hot. So signs the pump is starting to fail but not totally gone yet? Perhaps there are blockages in the system that some high detergent oils or liqui moly might clear up? I have a shitty chinese oil filter on there now with a housing that is broken inside (new housing en route).

Any thoughts?

If the oil pump on this car was cheaper, I would just do it to get it done.

[FatMongo]

Well, there it is gents:

At 80* C (176* F), Im getting 10 psi at idle, 34-38 psi at 2k and 56 psi at 3k . Should be 14-17, 39-65, and 51-65.

[EvolutionArmory]

Your pump is all done unless your Chinese oil filter is collapsed or your pick up tube is clogged.

[Charles.waite]

Yea could be the pickup tube but I’d toss in an OEM oil filter and fresh oil (unless it’s already fresh, then leave it) and run the pressure test again. You numbers definitely seem too low to be healthy but I wouldn’t rule out a garbage filter before you start replacing very expensive components and expending tons of effort dropping the pan...

[FatMongo]

Yea could be the pickup tube but I’d toss in an OEM oil filter and fresh oil (unless it’s already fresh, then leave it) and run the pressure test again. You numbers definitely seem too low to be healthy but I wouldn’t rule out a garbage filter before you start replacing very expensive components and expending tons of effort dropping the pan...

Yeah, thats my plan of attack. I just did an oil change last week and put in Castrol 5w-40 with a shitty oil filter that came from ebay as OEM audi, but was chinese crap. While doing the oil change, i noticed that the center column in the oil filter housing (where the oil filter sits) was mssing and i heard a paper crunching noise when i was tightening the oil filter housing. So I should be receiving the new filter housing today and i will pick up a Mann filter later and try the oil pressure test again after running some liqui moly.

Now, the oil pressure light has never come on, but i understand that the parameters to trip the oil pressure light are relatively extreme so a faltering pump might plug along just enough to avoid the light.

Also, at this point, my great concern is that i dont have a good answer for the noise in the videos in the beginning of this thread. i would hate to do the oil pump only to find out I have a spun rod bearing.

The oil from last week's change is at Blackstone for analysis - the analysis should help guide the way forward (I have my eye on an 86k mile oil pump for $250 or a sub 100K 2.0 engine for $1500).

[FatMongo]

And I guess to add insult to injury - my plastic timing belt cover seems to be one piece (not the type you can pull that cam sensor and the top two bolts and have the top part lift off). So short of putting the car in 'service position' it will be a pain to remove the front timing cover.

[EvolutionArmory]

With an engine as noisy as yours, you’d probably be better off just pulling the motor and looking everything over before doing anything. Maybe a used motor is the better solution to begin with.

[Charles.waite]

Oh and the vacuum pump isn’t actually connected to the crankcase in any way so your idle would’ve be affected by a leak in the vacuum pump or brake booster system. More likely, you have a cracked plastic PCV hose that sealed better after fiddling around back there since they’re all snakes around there.

[FatMongo]

Gents, I think this puts to end the optimism of avoiding serious engine work:

IMG_2331.jpgIMG_2332.jpg

Does anyone want to guess what the oil analysis will say ?

By the way, the Mann oil filter resulted in 11 psi as well.

Mind you, the above oil and filter had like 1 mile on it and maybe 1 hour of run time.

[MacRoadie]

Good night Irene...

[Charles.waite]

Man what sort of prankster poured glitter into your engine oil?

[FatMongo]

What is the inter-changability of 2.0 engines in the B7? Will a 2.0 from an 08 interchange into a 2006 chassis and ECU?

[FatMongo]

What about from the Passat or other VW sisters?

[CGB7A4]

Sorry for the horror story. Hope all works out for you.

[FatMongo]

Sorry for the horror story. Hope all works out for you.

Lol. It’s just a cheap car. Far from a horror story. It’ll work out, it’s just going to cost a lot more time and money than I initially allotted for.

[Charles.waite]

What is the inter-changability of 2.0 engines in the B7? Will a 2.0 from an 08 interchange into a 2006 chassis and ECU?

BWT, BPG, and BPY engines are all generally interchangeable. The main distinction is the Longitudinal Quattro Tiptronic crank is unique. Transverse and longitudinal manual/cvt engines are generally plug and play, you just need to swap accessories, thermostat, coolant flange, and probably the fuel pressure sensors (since those had vin splits and might not be the same on VWs).

Why would you swap the ECU? Then you have to deal with IMMO cloning and BPG (05-06) and BWT (07-08) has different ECUs.

[EvolutionArmory]

Early and late B7 cars have VIN specific parts that don’t work when you swap ECU’s around. Gotta be mindful of that. Things like the intake manifold flap motor, the fuel rail pressure sensor and maybe a couple other things are VIN/build date specific. You can usually just transfer over your accessories from your old motor when you buy a used motor and just use the long block and it will work if you’re not sure which accessories could be a problem.

[FatMongo]

That’s the point. I don’t WANT to swap ECUs, I’m asking if I need to. So if I understand correctly, from the last two posts, and Non tiptronic B7 2.0 can bolt in to my B7 06 and essentially be plug and play once accessories are accounted for?

- - - Updated - - -

Should say “any non tiptronic...” hard to edit on mobile.

[Charles.waite]

If your car is a manual, then yes.

Just be aware that there are a few minor changes over the model run that could throw your ECU for a loop. Mainly I’m thinking of the low side fuel pressure sensor. Might be one or two others.

[FatMongo]

So folks...

I finally got around to pulling the engine on this car (I had to finish up my Mustang first to get it out of the garage). All this time, I had kind of held out hope/suspected that the timing chain on the back of the head or the tensioner was the culprit behind everything. But once I looked behind the cover, I could tell the chain and tensioner were good. So once I can get this engine on a stand, I will pull the oil pump, look at the balance shafts, and try to get a peak at the crank bearings/journals.