Need help finding the right Free Air 10" DVC subwoofer

[LawDawg]

A little background. I replaced the B&O sub in my 2011 S4 with this pioneer:

https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P...S-W260D4#specs

Highlights:
-Dual 4 ohm voice coils (meant it could be wired in series to match the 8 ohm B&O impedance.
-Worked in Free Air applications
-93 db sensitivity!

Well, I just traded in my S4 on a used S6, and I've already replaced the 8" sub with a Polk, and that's not cutting it. Had I known that this Pioneer was no longer available, I would have ripped it out before I traded in the S4. The new version of that Pioneer can't be used in Free Air applications.

So now I'm on a grail quest for a Free Air 10" with 4 ohm DVC and a high sensitivity rating. Dammit I should have kept that sub. It's looking like a unicorn these days. I should mention that I'm looking for these specs because I'm just trying to match a sub with the existing B&O equipment.

[Bobby Kinstle]

I was the one that first used that pioneer sub in my B8 S4. They do still make the champion series and you can still find some around, and if you don't mind the amount of trunk space you lose, it's still the best fit. That being said, I didn't use it on my B9 S4. Instead I used a Kicker CompC10 DVC 4 ohm because it was the best fit after I ran a bunch of T/S calculations. The B&O amp has no problems driving a 4 ohm sub and is barely warm even after an hour of hard bass played louder than I care to listen to. The Kicker after break in is around the same volume as the factory sub, but sounds way better. The Pioneer will be louder as it's by far the most efficient sub in this category out there. My second choice would be the Polk DB series 10" DVC but it may struggle below 32hz in free air applications.

You won't be able to find a good DVC 8 owm sub anywhere, and it's really quite a lot of metal work to install 2 subs.

[LawDawg]

The newer Champion series that they replaced it with (this guy: https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P...W261D4#manuals) looks like it fits the bill. Here's the rub: in the specs on the webpage, it doesn't overtly say it's a free air sub, although it has the free air spec. However, if you click on the owners manual link at the bottom of the page, at the top of the manual warnings on the right said, it really sounds like it shouldn't be used in a free air application.

I can't believe that NOBODY seems to make a DVC free air 10" with anywhere near the efficiency of that old Pioneer. Maybe the newer Pioneer would still work? What do you think?

[Bobby Kinstle]

The old version was a bit ambiguous on the free air capabilities too but it worked out just fine. The main problem with "not free air" subs being used in free air applications is that many subs depend on the enclosure resonance to reach the very deepest frequencies and have a hard time playing below their free air resonance without an enclosure. The published specs are a little lightweight on this woofer but I just ran some numbers with the approximate trunk volume and the resonant frequency came out below 20hz, so I think it will be just fine. Be warned that it will suck up a lot of power when playing deep notes (despite it's high efficiency rating, most subs actually draw very little power around their resonant frequency in the particular installation) If your B&O amp gets too hot to comfortably touch, maybe install a sub amp, but it'll probably be fine.

Based on the measurements I took in my own car the trunk resonant frequency is about 28Hz so it wouldn't surprise me if you at least got that low and that's a big improvement over the stock sub. Both my B8 (Pioneer) and B9 (Kicker) played solidly to 28 and then started rolling off at 27Hz

[LawDawg]

Your info has been VERY helpful. Just a note, I don't have the S4 any longer, I'm talking about doing the same in my new (to me) S6. The reason I point that out again, is that the trunk is different, and the B&O amp puts out more power than the one in my S4 did. Just didn't know if you caught that from my first post.

Is it safe to say that the new(er) Pioneer will work in basically the same manner and applications as that original one did? I just got nervous since Pioneer outright said "free air" on the the first one, and then clearly hedged on the second one...so I thought there might be a problem.

The reason that I really want high efficiency, is that I want to be able to hear the bass at lower volume settings. I hate having to turn up my music too loud to get any decent bass or thump. Would you say I'm probably on the right track?

I think I followed your info back when I did this to my S4 back in '14. Are you the fellow I ran into on Reid C.'s FB page?

[Bobby Kinstle]

I think you'll be very happy with the Pioneer sub, especially after it's broken in.

I don't think I ever did anything on Ried C's page though

[LawDawg]

I think you'll be very happy with the Pioneer sub, especially after it's broken in.

I don't think I ever did anything on Ried C's page though

Then another guy who I have a common friend with must have followed your install notes, and then directed me there as well.

[Bobby Kinstle]

This is about where I got into the discussion on the B8 (seems the images aren't all there anymore):

https://www.audiworld.com/forums/s4-...2822346/page2/

And here is my thread for the B9:

https://www.audiworld.com/forums/s4-...e-b-o-2972479/

If you've looked at my spreadsheet you can see pretty quick that the B&O upgrade effort is probably bottomless. I don't know much about the S6 system, but hopefully it's more like the B8 with fewer and more standard drivers and not like the B9 with 17 terrible drivers that came from a random parts bin after snorting a bunch of cocaine.

[LawDawg]

Yup. I remember diving DEEP into that first thread, as well as several others when I tackled my S4. As a testament to how much I liked the Pioneer in that S4 setup, I'm already plotting an upgrade to my upgrade in my S6. The stock B&O sub didn't play, so 3 days after I got it, I replaced it with a 8" Polk BD+ 4ohm DVC sub. However I'm noticing that the bass doesn't kick in until I get to higher volumes. Also, the frequency response is narrower than I felt the Pioneer was in the S4 application. So...that brings us to today.

[Bobby Kinstle]

While the 8" polk is a very good sub, it's not very efficient and will probably need an amp. Also it's definitely not free air rated. It may struggle at very low frequencies in fee air. I think you'll be much happier with the Pioneer 10" DVC.

[LawDawg]

The Polk simply replaced the B&O sub in the factory box. The '13 S6 has a B&O sub in a sealed box under the rear deck. '14+ it was moved into the spare tire well.

[Bobby Kinstle]

So you are going to do some cutting for the 10"?

[LawDawg]

No. Just remove the B&O box with the Polk 8”, and go free air with the Pioneer just like the S4. There is about an 8-8.5” cut out in the deck, so just use a small spacer, again like the S4. Basically a copy/paste job. If it doesn’t go well, then the B&O box can go back in. In the S6 the B&O has a separate sub amp as I understand it.

[Bobby Kinstle]

I used this ring and it was a perfect fit in my S4 and looks good too

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[benjylafond]

Let me check my messages, there is a guy in Miami who has some new old stock 10 inch dvc pioneer subs. I found one on offer up for $40, but somebody sent me a pm with an e-mail address when I asked about trying to find one in the classifieds.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Audizine mobile app

[benjylafond]

Let me check my messages, there is a guy in Miami who has some new old stock 10 inch dvc pioneer subs. I found one on offer up for $40, but somebody sent me a pm with an e-mail address when I asked about trying to find one in the classifieds.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Audizine mobile app

Email Micheal in Miami, He has a Pioneer TS-W260D4 Subwoofer for sale. Here's his email*[email protected]

Sent from my SM-N960U using Audizine mobile app

[LawDawg]

Email Micheal in Miami, He has a Pioneer TS-W260D4 Subwoofer for sale. Here's his email*[email protected]

Sent from my SM-N960U using Audizine mobile app

Um...yeah. So I paid him via Western Union, and he's largely gone dark, and when he has popped up, said that payment hasn't cleared. It's not a lot of $$$, but I'm starting to have that "not good" feeling about this.

[Hdale85]

The DVC Kicker Comp C is supposed to do well free air as well. It was my plan on my wifes B7 but then I realized the stock woofer is definitely closer to an 8" so now it's going in a box lol.

[LawDawg]

The DVC Kicker Comp C is supposed to do well free air as well. It was my plan on my wifes B7 but then I realized the stock woofer is definitely closer to an 8" so now it's going in a box lol.

If you top mount it, it will likely still work. I was able to top mount a IB 10" sub in place of my stock 8" in my B8 S4. Worst case you need a 1/2" spacer ring.

[Hdale85]

Hmm, I may try. Technically I have too much power for free air lol. Generally when running Free Air or IB (infinite baffle is the proper term) you use 1/2 the power. I didn't think there would be enough space on the top side for the sub to fit that way.

[LawDawg]

Hmm, I may try. Technically I have too much power for free air lol. Generally when running Free Air or IB (infinite baffle is the proper term) you use 1/2 the power. I didn't think there would be enough space on the top side for the sub to fit that way.

Is there really such thing as too much power? Haha.

[Hdale85]

Well sorta lol. The sub is rated for 250w RMS when it's in a box. Basically free air/IB the amount of power the driver can take is halved roughly. I'd just have to be careful with setting up the amp for the most part lol.