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  1. #1
    Established Member Three Rings Morritse's Avatar
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    A-B comparisons between 3 tuners and EPL 91/93/E85

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    Obviously, this is still my personal experience, and I know tunes vary a lot car to car. If anything, it shows that these 3 tunes are pretty similar in power level and delivery.
    However, these were the best results I got from logging, no timing pull, low IATs for all the runs, etc.
    All runs were with dual pulley 57/187, ported blower, APR CPS.




    Here's also a comparison between EPL's 91/93/E85 tunes.

    187/57 - e85 custom tune (EPL) - custom exhaust -
    ported blower - IABED TB - Brembo BBK - APR CPS - USP intake- 034 sways and drivetrain inserts - cr-15 - 034 density control arms - Koni sport shocks - Eibach lowering springs - VMR v804 -PSS - N2O coming 😎

  2. #2
    Active Member Two Rings B8S4inKC's Avatar
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    Is that with the “3-4 gallons” of E-85 recommended by EPL? I didn’t think there would be that significant of a difference.


    Sent from my iPhone using Audizine

  3. #3
    Senior Member Two Rings street2gen's Avatar
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    Well this makes me want to go full E-85

  4. #4
    Veteran Member Four Rings cspcrx's Avatar
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    Tells me that if APR would come out with a E85 tune we, APR customers, could have more hp.

    interesting data
    2012 Ibis P+ / DSG / Silk Napa / B&O / Sport Diff. / ADS lite / MMI & Nav / APR Stage 2+ & TCU Tuned / Ultra Charger / 184mm KI LIL BITCH / ECS Kohlefaser Luft-Technik Intake / AMS Alpha Cooler / ECS 2-Piece Rotors / Akebono Pads / VMR 803 19x9.5 ET45 265-35-19 PSS / ECS Drivetrain Bushing Inserts / CR-15

    12.3 @ 112mph 2288DA on 93oct file Stage 2

    THEN THEN THEN Rinse & Repeat!

  5. #5
    Established Member Three Rings Morritse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cspcrx View Post
    Tells me that if APR would come out with a E85 tune we, APR customers, could have more hp.

    interesting data
    APR will probably never release any ethanol tunes, also, with our injectors, we can't pump enough e85 to take advantage of it, usually e85 tunes aren't faster than e40/104 tunes, they're comparable.
    187/57 - e85 custom tune (EPL) - custom exhaust -
    ported blower - IABED TB - Brembo BBK - APR CPS - USP intake- 034 sways and drivetrain inserts - cr-15 - 034 density control arms - Koni sport shocks - Eibach lowering springs - VMR v804 -PSS - N2O coming 😎

  6. #6
    Established Member Three Rings Morritse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B8S4inKC View Post
    Is that with the “3-4 gallons” of E-85 recommended by EPL? I didn’t think there would be that significant of a difference.


    Sent from my iPhone using Audizine
    I'm not sure what you're referring to.

    034 is 40% ethanol, APR tune is 45% ethanol, EPL 91 is straight pump gas (10% ethanol) EPL 93 is ~25-30& ethanol, E85 is 70% ethanol.
    187/57 - e85 custom tune (EPL) - custom exhaust -
    ported blower - IABED TB - Brembo BBK - APR CPS - USP intake- 034 sways and drivetrain inserts - cr-15 - 034 density control arms - Koni sport shocks - Eibach lowering springs - VMR v804 -PSS - N2O coming 😎

  7. #7
    Established Member Two Rings Jimcoily's Avatar
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    thank you for sharing

  8. #8
    Senior Member Four Rings maty360414's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morritse View Post
    Obviously, this is still my personal experience, and I know tunes vary a lot car to car. If anything, it shows that these 3 tunes are pretty similar in power level and delivery.
    However, these were the best results I got from logging, no timing pull, low IATs for all the runs, etc.
    All runs were with dual pulley 57/187, ported blower, APR CPS.




    Here's also a comparison between EPL's 91/93/E85 tunes.

    That E85 file is strong as hell, look at that torque. How much timing are you getting

  9. #9
    Established Member Two Rings
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    When running the EPL test, did you both change the EPL tune file and the fuel?

    In other words:
    E85 Tune with E85 fuel
    91 tune with 91 fuel
    93 tune with 25% E85 and 75% 91 fuel
    '10 S4 6spd, EPL Stg 2 93oct
    '13 Q7 Prestige 3.0T Mugello blue
    Previous: '01.5 S4 Nogaro Blue, '09 A4 Prestige Avant (Silver on Black), '04 S4 Nogaro Blue

  10. #10
    Forum Moderator Four Rings Loe's Avatar
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    why is the APR car making only 2200mBAR of boost as compared to 2350ish for the EPL car? That's like 3psi difference.

    Thank you for contributing, but on a side note virtual dyno's should only be used as a tuning guide so long as its done on the same stretch of road in similar conditions and shouldn't be used to compare one tune vs another. The boost logs shows there already are differences in weather conditions.
    -Loe P.-
    Audizine Forum Moderator

    ('14 Audi S5 S-tronic )
    [10.930@127.38mph | +1209 ft. D/A | 3.371 PR]

  11. #11
    Established Member Three Rings Morritse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loe View Post
    why is the APR car making only 2200mBAR of boost as compared to 2350ish for the EPL car? That's like 3psi difference.

    Thank you for contributing, but on a side note virtual dyno's should only be used as a tuning guide so long as its done on the same stretch of road in similar conditions and shouldn't be used to compare one tune vs another. The boost logs shows there already are differences in weather conditions.
    Yes, the APR run was on a hotter day, but not hot enough for timing retardation or bypass opening. I actually ran 3 11.5s back to back to back right after getting those logs.

    Definitely some finite loss in air mass though.

    And I completely agree with your stance, the only thing this shows. Is that MY car on THOSE days using a virtual program showed these results. No one should draw any conclusions except for maybe that they're all pretty damn close.

    I made this because recently there have been a bunch of guys shitting on various tuners and claiming one was so much faster than another, stage 1, 2, whatever. I just don't understand how those conclusions can be drawn from people that have had 1 tuner and a stage 1 car. From my personal experience, even at a pretty high level of modification, power levels are PRETTY close to each other, and when deciding on a tuner, you should instead look at things like pricing, support, convenience, future development, and also what upgrade path you want to go down.

    Another thing I wanted to emphasize is how big of a difference good fuel makes. I made over 100WHP more on e40/45/70 than on pump gas, and all you need is the autotech HPFP and access to ethanol (which i know is impossible for some).
    Last edited by Morritse; 12-06-2018 at 04:31 PM.
    187/57 - e85 custom tune (EPL) - custom exhaust -
    ported blower - IABED TB - Brembo BBK - APR CPS - USP intake- 034 sways and drivetrain inserts - cr-15 - 034 density control arms - Koni sport shocks - Eibach lowering springs - VMR v804 -PSS - N2O coming 😎

  12. #12
    Established Member Three Rings Morritse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pagrosse View Post
    When running the EPL test, did you both change the EPL tune file and the fuel?

    In other words:
    E85 Tune with E85 fuel
    91 tune with 91 fuel
    93 tune with 25% E85 and 75% 91 fuel
    So I did all the EPL runs on one day. E85 first, literally emptied the gas tank, put 91 in, ran that, then added e85 to run the 93 tune.
    187/57 - e85 custom tune (EPL) - custom exhaust -
    ported blower - IABED TB - Brembo BBK - APR CPS - USP intake- 034 sways and drivetrain inserts - cr-15 - 034 density control arms - Koni sport shocks - Eibach lowering springs - VMR v804 -PSS - N2O coming 😎

  13. #13
    Established Member Three Rings Morritse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maty360414 View Post
    That E85 file is strong as hell, look at that torque. How much timing are you getting
    If I recall correctly, I made 31.5 on APR, 30.5 on 034, and 28.5 on EPL.

    With full E85 I don't think you can advance timing too much, I think they choose instead to lean out the fuel mixture a bit more for power rather than advance timing
    187/57 - e85 custom tune (EPL) - custom exhaust -
    ported blower - IABED TB - Brembo BBK - APR CPS - USP intake- 034 sways and drivetrain inserts - cr-15 - 034 density control arms - Koni sport shocks - Eibach lowering springs - VMR v804 -PSS - N2O coming 😎

  14. #14
    Senior Member Four Rings maty360414's Avatar
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    You have been with 3 different tuners? Wow what made you switch from each one

    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
    '13 S4 | Phantom Black | EPL Dual Pulley Water/Meth | EPL TCU | AEM W/M | Tampa Ported S/C | iABED TB | JHM 187 | MercRacing HX/Divorced | Becker TestPipes | AutoTech HPFP | Roc Euro Intake | ECS Trans Mount | ECS F/R Diff Mount | H&R Super Sport Springs | CR-15 | Drilled & Slotted Rotors| Vertini RF 1.3 | Michelin PS4S | Sport Diff | Akebono Pads | 1Res 1NonRes X-Pipe | RS Grill | Spoiler/Diffuser | 5K Fog LED's | VAGCOM Mods | 11.4@122 MPH

  15. #15
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morritse View Post
    APR will probably never release any ethanol tunes, also, with our injectors, we can't pump enough e85 to take advantage of it, usually e85 tunes aren't faster than e40/104 tunes, they're comparable.
    EPL e85 tune is not comparable to APR 104 tune...
    C7 A6 3.0T, APR Stage 2+, P3U TCU tune, 3.56PR, Tampa Motorsports Porter Blower, 75mm Porsche 997 911 TB and some other goodies.

    0-60mph 3.10 seconds
    0-100mph 7.62 seconds
    1/4 mile 11.30 @121.90mph

  16. #16
    Established Member Three Rings Morritse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by p3u View Post
    EPL e85 tune is not comparable to APR 104 tune...

    I didn't mean comparable as in the actual tune, was talking about performance. Obviously tunes for 104 and e85 are going to be way different
    In my experiences they delivered similar power.
    Admittedly their e85 tune has changed quite a bit recently. Might not have been as powerful before.
    187/57 - e85 custom tune (EPL) - custom exhaust -
    ported blower - IABED TB - Brembo BBK - APR CPS - USP intake- 034 sways and drivetrain inserts - cr-15 - 034 density control arms - Koni sport shocks - Eibach lowering springs - VMR v804 -PSS - N2O coming 😎

  17. #17
    Forum Moderator Four Rings Loe's Avatar
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    '14 Audi S5, '18 BMW 540i, '17 Jetta SE
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    Sarasota, FL

    a single gear dyno wouldn't tell you overall performance though, time to distance or time-to-speed would be more beneficial to see how the car would react during a multi-gear situation. I think that is the point p3u is trying to get at, and myself as well, otherwise we'd be seeing more people trapping 123+ mph given the same set-ups and mods.

    Also, the difference in air-mass accounts for a bit, approx 150mbar may sound minute, is a rather large variance as even 60mbar could impact trap speeds by 2mph (25awhp). For instance, I make 519awhp on my virtual dyno on a 900ft D/A day, but make 551awhp on a 100ft D/A day, air density and the composition (mercury, humidity) plays a rather big factor in intercooled/boosted vehicles, but the difference in mbar is 'only' 50mbar. 150-200mbar difference is like stage 2 vs. stage 2 DP on a level playing field. On a side note, seeing 31.4* of timing on an APR 104 means you are having a good bit of ignition corrections.

    Maybe I'm being too analytic? I think I took the joy out of your thread, sorry for that!
    -Loe P.-
    Audizine Forum Moderator

    ('14 Audi S5 S-tronic )
    [10.930@127.38mph | +1209 ft. D/A | 3.371 PR]

  18. #18
    Veteran Member Four Rings kelseysautobody's Avatar
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    Not trying to nitpick but for accuracy sake since when does does an S4 weigh 4450lbs with driver? My car weighs in at 4050 with me in the car and spare/tools removed at the track. I'm about 185.
    2013 S4 S-tronic - APR intake // KI 200mm crank pulley // EPL Stg II DP 93 + TCU tune // PLM hx // Jokerz Blower // Headers // iABED TB
    11.281 @ 121.58
    1993 URS4 - Work in progress...
    Past: 07 S4 6MT ~ 03 A4 3.0 6MT ~ 99 A4 1.8T

  19. #19
    Veteran Member Four Rings cspcrx's Avatar
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    Agree mine came in at 4182 with me in it and I believe 1/2 tank of fuel. Can't recall exact fuel level now its been a while.
    2012 Ibis P+ / DSG / Silk Napa / B&O / Sport Diff. / ADS lite / MMI & Nav / APR Stage 2+ & TCU Tuned / Ultra Charger / 184mm KI LIL BITCH / ECS Kohlefaser Luft-Technik Intake / AMS Alpha Cooler / ECS 2-Piece Rotors / Akebono Pads / VMR 803 19x9.5 ET45 265-35-19 PSS / ECS Drivetrain Bushing Inserts / CR-15

    12.3 @ 112mph 2288DA on 93oct file Stage 2

    THEN THEN THEN Rinse & Repeat!

  20. #20
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Question, how do tunes account for E85 blends? EPL mentions that we can add up to about E30 for a bump in performance with 91/93 tunes.

    For this to be true either:
    1. The base 91/93 tune is over shooting timing by default and with 91/93 fuel we see retardation. When we add some E85 the octane increases and you are able to run with full timing
    2. Other ancillary benefits, i.e. Cooler air charge temps from evaporative cooling of the ethanol (But doesn't this just get back to the benefit of being able to limit detonation??)
    '10 S4 6spd, EPL Stg 2 93oct
    '13 Q7 Prestige 3.0T Mugello blue
    Previous: '01.5 S4 Nogaro Blue, '09 A4 Prestige Avant (Silver on Black), '04 S4 Nogaro Blue

  21. #21
    Established Member Three Rings Morritse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelseysautobody View Post
    Not trying to nitpick but for accuracy sake since when does does an S4 weigh 4450lbs with driver? My car weighs in at 4050 with me in the car and spare/tools removed at the track. I'm about 185.
    Passenger, 15 gallons of e85 in the trunk. Full tools and spare etc. Big audio setup in the trunk.
    187/57 - e85 custom tune (EPL) - custom exhaust -
    ported blower - IABED TB - Brembo BBK - APR CPS - USP intake- 034 sways and drivetrain inserts - cr-15 - 034 density control arms - Koni sport shocks - Eibach lowering springs - VMR v804 -PSS - N2O coming 😎

  22. #22
    Established Member Three Rings Morritse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loe View Post
    a single gear dyno wouldn't tell you overall performance though, time to distance or time-to-speed would be more beneficial to see how the car would react during a multi-gear situation. I think that is the point p3u is trying to get at, and myself as well, otherwise we'd be seeing more people trapping 123+ mph given the same set-ups and mods.

    Also, the difference in air-mass accounts for a bit, approx 150mbar may sound minute, is a rather large variance as even 60mbar could impact trap speeds by 2mph (25awhp). For instance, I make 519awhp on my virtual dyno on a 900ft D/A day, but make 551awhp on a 100ft D/A day, air density and the composition (mercury, humidity) plays a rather big factor in intercooled/boosted vehicles, but the difference in mbar is 'only' 50mbar. 150-200mbar difference is like stage 2 vs. stage 2 DP on a level playing field. On a side note, seeing 31.4* of timing on an APR 104 means you are having a good bit of ignition corrections.

    Maybe I'm being too analytic? I think I took the joy out of your thread, sorry for that!
    no, analysis is great. I encourage it.

    187/57 - e85 custom tune (EPL) - custom exhaust -
    ported blower - IABED TB - Brembo BBK - APR CPS - USP intake- 034 sways and drivetrain inserts - cr-15 - 034 density control arms - Koni sport shocks - Eibach lowering springs - VMR v804 -PSS - N2O coming 😎

  23. #23
    Established Member Three Rings Morritse's Avatar
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    Stage 2 b8 a5 (sold)
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    Quote Originally Posted by pagrosse View Post
    Question, how do tunes account for E85 blends? EPL mentions that we can add up to about E30 for a bump in performance with 91/93 tunes.

    For this to be true either:
    1. The base 91/93 tune is over shooting timing by default and with 91/93 fuel we see retardation. When we add some E85 the octane increases and you are able to run with full timing
    2. Other ancillary benefits, i.e. Cooler air charge temps from evaporative cooling of the ethanol (But doesn't this just get back to the benefit of being able to limit detonation??)
    1 is partially correct. But it isn't just "overshoot", it also compensates for bad gas.
    2 is correct, but those things don't change the tune, I think the extra oxygen content in e85 contributes to gained power.
    187/57 - e85 custom tune (EPL) - custom exhaust -
    ported blower - IABED TB - Brembo BBK - APR CPS - USP intake- 034 sways and drivetrain inserts - cr-15 - 034 density control arms - Koni sport shocks - Eibach lowering springs - VMR v804 -PSS - N2O coming 😎

  24. #24
    Senior Member Four Rings Thurston's Avatar
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    Reminds me of "Andthen's" dyno in which he e85 and had gobs of torque



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