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  1. #1
    Senior Member Three Rings mssurrey's Avatar
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    Front tire inner wear issue (Alignment issue?)

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    My front tires (Hankook Ventus V2s 275/30/20 on 20" Niche wheels) have been on the vehicle since about 5K miles (now at around 40K). That was the last time I had an alignment done. Having the worst roads in the country (MI), I think the tires haven't done too badly. I went to change to snow tires this last weekend only to find that the metal is showing on the inner side of both front tires so I left the summer's on until I get this figured out. I'm lowered on H&R OE springs (so minimal). My wife did prang the front once (no frame damage or anything major) but I didn't get an alignment done after that (that was 2 years ago) (Note to self - don't let wife drive car EVER).

    My questions are whether the wear is normal after just a long period or whether it's an alignment issue? Can I get back to within Audi specs on the OE springs without changing the UC Arms to adjustables?
    Just trying to find a place to do the alignment is an issue since a lot of places won't do it due to the lowering and the aftermarket wheels. So would I be better off changing to the 18" Audi wheels (that have the snows on) BEFORE I get an alignment done or should I try and get the alignment done on the 20" Niches?
    Also, should I replace the Hankooks first and then do the alignment OR should I keep the worn tires on and do the alignment now before I put the snows on?
    2013 Audi S5 coupe - Ibis White with Magma Red/black interior.
    Alu Kreutz, H&R OE springs, silver Niche Targa 20x10.5, Stasis Revo Stage 1, RS5 grill, 35% Llumar tints, Xpel Ultimate Clear Bra, Opti-Coat, K&N air filter, S5 mats.

    Next: Not much now other than Rear diffuser and Exhaust.

  2. #2
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    There is no need for control arms. Inner tire wear is a toe issue and you have full adjustability for that. Yes id get the alignment checked.

    Mike

    2010 Audi A4 Avant 6AT - Unitronic Tuned - Bone Stock Hardware
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  3. #3
    Senior Member Three Rings mssurrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhvrdr View Post
    There is no need for control arms. Inner tire wear is a toe issue and you have full adjustability for that. Yes id get the alignment checked.

    Mike
    Thanks Man.
    I always thought inner wear was a camber issue?
    Should I do the alignment with the current wheel tire set-up or change to my snows first?
    2013 Audi S5 coupe - Ibis White with Magma Red/black interior.
    Alu Kreutz, H&R OE springs, silver Niche Targa 20x10.5, Stasis Revo Stage 1, RS5 grill, 35% Llumar tints, Xpel Ultimate Clear Bra, Opti-Coat, K&N air filter, S5 mats.

    Next: Not much now other than Rear diffuser and Exhaust.

  4. #4
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mssurrey View Post
    Thanks Man.
    I always thought inner wear was a camber issue?
    Should I do the alignment with the current wheel tire set-up or change to my snows first?
    Most people do. Camber can contribute but toe is the major culprit and can effectively cancel out any inner wear unless the car is just stupidly dumped. It shouldn't really matter which setup but id do it with the summer assuming you're driving on it mist frequently.

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    2010 Audi A4 Avant 6AT - Unitronic Tuned - Bone Stock Hardware
    13.665 at 97.71mph - 93 octane - +1250DA
    Gone:
    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic Stage 2++ ECU & TCU, 3.17pr, Revo Charge Cooler, CTS Turbo Intake, ST60 380mm BBK
    11.482 at 118.70mph - 97 octane - +465DA
    --------------------------
    2016 A6 -- 2015 S4 -- 2009 A4 -- 2004 S4 -- 2006 A4 -- 2003 A4 -- 2000 A4

  5. #5
    Veteran Member Four Rings superswiss's Avatar
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    Excessive camber does wear the inner edge of the tire more if you mainly drive straight. Your tire basically rolls on the inside more than the outside. Camber is there for cornering and the harder you plan to corner the more camber you might want. The point of camber is so that the tire makes full contact around a corner. But bad toe also causes inner tire wear. You definitely went for a long time w/o an alignment. If you have bad roads as you say, then most likely your alignment is off. The following is what happened to my last set of front tires, because I waited too long to get it aligned. Right rear and left front toe was out of spec and this was the result. I did feel something was off as it was pulling on certain roads and speeds, but I procrastinated.

    '13 panther blk RS5, Ti pkg, blk leather/alcantara, nav pkg, sport exhaust, driver assist pkg, rear shade, alu kreuz, ECS spacers 15f/10r, ECS tru-float rotors, ECS brake lines, Hawk HPS pads, european delivery
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Three Rings mssurrey's Avatar
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    Thanks guys. Given that the Niches are due to be replaced next Spring (already have new wheels) and now need to get two front tires (at least - maybe even rears) , perhaps I'll hold off until then so that I know that the wheels and tires are not out of whack when they do the laser alignment.
    I think the snow tires on 18s should be good for the next few months - I don't see them wearing badly in that time.
    2013 Audi S5 coupe - Ibis White with Magma Red/black interior.
    Alu Kreutz, H&R OE springs, silver Niche Targa 20x10.5, Stasis Revo Stage 1, RS5 grill, 35% Llumar tints, Xpel Ultimate Clear Bra, Opti-Coat, K&N air filter, S5 mats.

    Next: Not much now other than Rear diffuser and Exhaust.

  7. #7
    Active Member Two Rings
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    That ‘cupping’ on the edges definitely looks like toe alignment not camber. The S5’s are known to have camber ‘issues’ anyway - even straight from the factory they will wear the inner edge of the tires quicker than the outer edge. If you lower them, the issue becomes even more acute, unless you get adjustable-camber upper control arms. I bought cheap Coker tires to get me through the winter when I will correct the camber to something less aggressive. I don’t canyon carve, so there’s little point have such aggressive camber.


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  8. #8
    Veteran Member Four Rings old guy's Avatar
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    As Mike pointed out the toe when combined with the increased camber is a major contributing factor to inner edge tire wear. Several things occur when you lower the car. Camber increases and the steering arm angle changes. The change in the steering arm angle has more to do with the inner edge tire wear than the increase in camber.

    I have considerable experience dealing with this with the B6/B7 platform and have been able to totally eliminate the inner edge tire wear on my B6. Unfortunately as I started to play around with the B8 steering geometry I have found that Audi no longer provides the ability to perform a raised toe adjustment to account for the change in the steering arm angle. I am currently playing around with a few ideas to come up with a method to create a raised toe adjustment.

    Another part of the inner edge tire wear equation when lowered is the tire pressure. As you increase your tire pressures above the recommended settings you essentially increase the stiffness of the tire sidewall. This reduces the sidewall flex and increases the pressure on the inner tire edge. You can actually measure this by monitoring the temperatures across the face of the tire. I did this on my A4 B6 and was able to move the temperature gradient from 15° to 5° by reducing the tire pressures. I am able to get 50K miles out of DWS's on my A4 Clicky click® This is with a FTG height of 25". Camber is centered at -1.6° per side.

    I will continue to work on a potential raised toe adjustment for the B8 platform and will post up whatever I come up with.
    Last edited by old guy; 11-10-2018 at 05:48 AM.
    A4 Motoza tuned Frankenturbo F21L / Bosch 550's / 3" MAF / TyrolSport SMIC / 034 HFC / TT 2.5" DP / Borla / Eibach ProKit / Koni Yellows / H-Sport F&R Bars / TyrolSport Brake Stiffeners / HyperShift Short Shifter / Podi
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  9. #9
    Senior Member Three Rings mssurrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old guy View Post
    ...Another part of the inner edge tire wear equation when lowered is the tire pressure. As you increase your tire pressures above the recommended settings you essentially increase the stiffness of the tire sidewall. This reduces the sidewall flex and increases the pressure on the inner tire edge. You can actually measure this by monitoring the temperatures across the face of the tire. I did this on my A4 B6 and was able to move the temperature gradient from 15° to 5° by reducing the tire pressures. Camber is centered at -1.6° per side.
    Th is one of the issues I have. I've had to increase air pressure to 40 F&R because of the 275/30s on 10.5in wide rims. Also with low profile here in MI, I need stiffer sidewalls just to be able to drive over potholes. I'm going to try and reduce pressure to 36 and see whether my backside thanks me for it.
    BTW, do we have adjustability for rear toe?
    I presume since stock control arms are not adjustable, I can't change the camber at all?
    BTW, what are factory settings for F&R toe and camber?
    2013 Audi S5 coupe - Ibis White with Magma Red/black interior.
    Alu Kreutz, H&R OE springs, silver Niche Targa 20x10.5, Stasis Revo Stage 1, RS5 grill, 35% Llumar tints, Xpel Ultimate Clear Bra, Opti-Coat, K&N air filter, S5 mats.

    Next: Not much now other than Rear diffuser and Exhaust.

  10. #10
    Veteran Member Four Rings old guy's Avatar
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    Yes the rear toe is adjustable. Front camber is not. The best you can do is to center it by shifting the subframe.

    Alignment specs: Clicky click®
    A4 Motoza tuned Frankenturbo F21L / Bosch 550's / 3" MAF / TyrolSport SMIC / 034 HFC / TT 2.5" DP / Borla / Eibach ProKit / Koni Yellows / H-Sport F&R Bars / TyrolSport Brake Stiffeners / HyperShift Short Shifter / Podi
    A5 Mods to come: Little stuff so far. 20/25mm spacers / H&R OE Sport springs / 35% tint / Neuspeed Power Module / black window trim / RS grille.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Three Rings mssurrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old guy View Post
    Yes the rear toe is adjustable. Front camber is not. The best you can do is to center it by shifting the subframe.

    Alignment specs: Clicky click®
    Thanks OG. Do the specs apply to the B8.5 ?
    Last edited by mssurrey; 11-14-2018 at 07:18 AM.
    2013 Audi S5 coupe - Ibis White with Magma Red/black interior.
    Alu Kreutz, H&R OE springs, silver Niche Targa 20x10.5, Stasis Revo Stage 1, RS5 grill, 35% Llumar tints, Xpel Ultimate Clear Bra, Opti-Coat, K&N air filter, S5 mats.

    Next: Not much now other than Rear diffuser and Exhaust.

  12. #12
    Veteran Member Four Rings old guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mssurrey View Post
    Thanks OG. Do the specs apply to the B8.5 ?
    Yep.
    A4 Motoza tuned Frankenturbo F21L / Bosch 550's / 3" MAF / TyrolSport SMIC / 034 HFC / TT 2.5" DP / Borla / Eibach ProKit / Koni Yellows / H-Sport F&R Bars / TyrolSport Brake Stiffeners / HyperShift Short Shifter / Podi
    A5 Mods to come: Little stuff so far. 20/25mm spacers / H&R OE Sport springs / 35% tint / Neuspeed Power Module / black window trim / RS grille.

  13. #13
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by nglshmn View Post
    That ‘cupping’ on the edges definitely looks like toe alignment not camber. The S5’s are known to have camber ‘issues’ anyway - even straight from the factory they will wear the inner edge of the tires quicker than the outer edge. If you lower them, the issue becomes even more acute, unless you get adjustable-camber upper control arms. I bought cheap Coker tires to get me through the winter when I will correct the camber to something less aggressive. I don’t canyon carve, so there’s little point have such aggressive camber.


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    It’s not really an camber issue. Audi wanted to improve turn in on the b8 chassis, and they did. When MotorTrend did a head to head with the Audi S4 vs BMW 335i, they found the Audi had sharper turn in then the BMW, which is great right... yes and no. The same thing happened to my b8.5, with excessive inner tire where. The car handles better then the b7 cassis, but there are some trade-offs. As stated above, this is exaggerated when lowering the car without adjusting anything.


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  14. #14
    Veteran Member Four Rings mozman68's Avatar
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    He stated he is lowered...and it is a 2013....

    I know I have a 2009, but I think it is the same....no front camber adjustment (or so little, it is insignificant).

    He WILL need aftermarket adjustable control arms to correct! I've burned through two sets of summer tires before I wised up and bit the bullet (in MI as well!)
    2009 S5 in Ice Silver but now wrapped in Oracal Telegrey / 20x10 AG M590's in satin black (check with Mops) / AWE Tuning Track Exhaust (Mops again!) / H&R Street Coilovers (Mops...again) / Ecodes (ECS Tuning) / Rear LED retrofit (Europrice) / RS5 blackout grill (MrCarCar)

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  15. #15
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mozman68 View Post
    He stated he is lowered...and it is a 2013....

    I know I have a 2009, but I think it is the same....no front camber adjustment (or so little, it is insignificant).

    He WILL need aftermarket adjustable control arms to correct! I've burned through two sets of summer tires before I wised up and bit the bullet (in MI as well!)
    No you dont. the main issue is toe which gets out of alignment from lowering. Unless your car is sitting on the ground the less than 2 degrees neg camber from lowering is not going to be an issue. I can get your OUTER edges to wear down on your lowered car with stock control arms making toe adjustments.

    2010 Audi A4 Avant 6AT - Unitronic Tuned - Bone Stock Hardware
    13.665 at 97.71mph - 93 octane - +1250DA
    Gone:
    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic Stage 2++ ECU & TCU, 3.17pr, Revo Charge Cooler, CTS Turbo Intake, ST60 380mm BBK
    11.482 at 118.70mph - 97 octane - +465DA
    --------------------------
    2016 A6 -- 2015 S4 -- 2009 A4 -- 2004 S4 -- 2006 A4 -- 2003 A4 -- 2000 A4

  16. #16
    Veteran Member Four Rings mozman68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhvrdr View Post
    No you dont. the main issue is toe which gets out of alignment from lowering. Unless your car is sitting on the ground the less than 2 degrees neg camber from lowering is not going to be an issue. I can get your OUTER edges to wear down on your lowered car with stock control arms making toe adjustments.
    Ummmmm...wrong...trust me, I just had my camber corrected as much as possible to fix this issue.

    See pic below.




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  17. #17
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mozman68 View Post
    Ummmmm...wrong...trust me, I just had my camber corrected as much as possible to fix this issue.

    See pic below.




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    This is my 11th audi. Fixing toe works. Ive never needed adjustable arms.

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    2010 Audi A4 Avant 6AT - Unitronic Tuned - Bone Stock Hardware
    13.665 at 97.71mph - 93 octane - +1250DA
    Gone:
    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic Stage 2++ ECU & TCU, 3.17pr, Revo Charge Cooler, CTS Turbo Intake, ST60 380mm BBK
    11.482 at 118.70mph - 97 octane - +465DA
    --------------------------
    2016 A6 -- 2015 S4 -- 2009 A4 -- 2004 S4 -- 2006 A4 -- 2003 A4 -- 2000 A4

  18. #18
    Veteran Member Four Rings mozman68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhvrdr View Post
    This is my 11th audi. Fixing toe works. Ive never needed adjustable arms.

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    That makes absolutely no sense...but okay...

    I guess everyone else on the S5 forum and the experts at my shop as well as all of the suppliers of adjustable control arms are wrong.

    The 5 has no adjustment for camber...lowering the car forces the wheels out on an angle causing the inner edge to wear WAY faster (dangerously so)...just like in ANY lowered vehicle. Adjusting the camber is the only way to correct...and replacing the upper control arms with adjustable ones is the only way to do it.

    Toe is to correct alignment/vibration issues in most cases. If that is “fixing” your car, than I can only assume they are toeing in both wheels which only leads to other issues including bad handling.

    But if it works for you...


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  19. #19
    Veteran Member Four Rings old guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mozman68 View Post
    Ummmmm...wrong...trust me, I just had my camber corrected as much as possible to fix this issue.
    As you add camber you have to decrease the toe. If you lower your car and maintain factory toe settings you will get inner edge tire wear. a simple toe adjustment will make a world of difference.
    A4 Motoza tuned Frankenturbo F21L / Bosch 550's / 3" MAF / TyrolSport SMIC / 034 HFC / TT 2.5" DP / Borla / Eibach ProKit / Koni Yellows / H-Sport F&R Bars / TyrolSport Brake Stiffeners / HyperShift Short Shifter / Podi
    A5 Mods to come: Little stuff so far. 20/25mm spacers / H&R OE Sport springs / 35% tint / Neuspeed Power Module / black window trim / RS grille.

  20. #20
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mozman68 View Post
    That makes absolutely no sense...but okay...

    I guess everyone else on the S5 forum and the experts at my shop as well as all of the suppliers of adjustable control arms are wrong.

    The 5 has no adjustment for camber...lowering the car forces the wheels out on an angle causing the inner edge to wear WAY faster (dangerously so)...just like in ANY lowered vehicle. Adjusting the camber is the only way to correct...and replacing the upper control arms with adjustable ones is the only way to do it.

    Toe is to correct alignment/vibration issues in most cases. If that is “fixing” your car, than I can only assume they are toeing in both wheels which only leads to other issues including bad handling.

    But if it works for you...


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    Look at this thread and youlll see the s5 forum agrees its toe. Search toe and alignment. Its the most common error made to assume camber is the main issue.

    There's a reason very few people buy the adjustable arms and many who have found if you dont put toe back correct you wasted your money not to mention the links commonly will make contact with the frame damaging b8 cars.

    Sure, it makes sense to the lay that camber is the issue. Watch what happens to the rears as your compress the suspension fully. The wheels dont just go up and cause more neg camber but they also go forward towards the front side windows of the cars. About 2 o'clock on the dial they move. The rears go up, forward, and in. This causes significant toe changes. Its also very common to see the inner rear tires so quickly destroyed yet the rear are camber adjustable.

    Tires are extremely sensitive to these types of very small toe changes yet pretty tolerant to camber changes from neg .5 to 2.0.

    https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...after-lowering




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    Last edited by bhvrdr; Yesterday at 10:27 AM.

    2010 Audi A4 Avant 6AT - Unitronic Tuned - Bone Stock Hardware
    13.665 at 97.71mph - 93 octane - +1250DA
    Gone:
    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic Stage 2++ ECU & TCU, 3.17pr, Revo Charge Cooler, CTS Turbo Intake, ST60 380mm BBK
    11.482 at 118.70mph - 97 octane - +465DA
    --------------------------
    2016 A6 -- 2015 S4 -- 2009 A4 -- 2004 S4 -- 2006 A4 -- 2003 A4 -- 2000 A4

  21. #21
    Veteran Member Four Rings old guy's Avatar
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    I am not trying to be argumentative but I would like to share some of what I have learned over the years concerning tire wear. If you click on the link I provided in post #8 as well as the additional links within the link I discussed and documented some of what I have learned. Simply looking at the wear on the Conti DWS tells a lot of the story. When I took that pic it had just under 50K miles of wear. You can clearly see that the tire was down to the minimum wear bar. You can also see that the inner edge was worn evenly with the rest of the tire. And that was with a FTG height of 25" and -1.6° of camber per side.
    A4 Motoza tuned Frankenturbo F21L / Bosch 550's / 3" MAF / TyrolSport SMIC / 034 HFC / TT 2.5" DP / Borla / Eibach ProKit / Koni Yellows / H-Sport F&R Bars / TyrolSport Brake Stiffeners / HyperShift Short Shifter / Podi
    A5 Mods to come: Little stuff so far. 20/25mm spacers / H&R OE Sport springs / 35% tint / Neuspeed Power Module / black window trim / RS grille.

  22. #22
    Veteran Member Four Rings mozman68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old guy View Post
    I am not trying to be argumentative but I would like to share some of what I have learned over the years concerning tire wear. If you click on the link I provided in post #8 as well as the additional links within the link I discussed and documented some of what I have learned. Simply looking at the wear on the Conti DWS tells a lot of the story. When I took that pic it had just under 50K miles of wear. You can clearly see that the tire was down to the minimum wear bar. You can also see that the inner edge was worn evenly with the rest of the tire. And that was with a FTG height of 25" and -1.6° of camber per side.
    That’s fine...but there are definitive downsides to using toe to correct a camber issue as far as handling is concerned. I think that should be mentioned considering probably 99% of the people on here experiencing this issue are relying on their car to drive as optimally as possible during daily driving.

    Just saying that zeroing out the toe (or close to that) “fixes” what is definitely a camber issue is not true in any way.


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  23. #23
    Veteran Member Four Rings old guy's Avatar
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    There is more to the geometry than just camber.

    When you lower the car two things occur. You increase the camber and you change the angle of the steering arm. When you change the angle of the steering arm you change how the toe is applied as the suspension moves up and down. If a level steering arm moves up or down it essentially "shortens" and increases toe relative to the initial setting. A steering arm that is no longer level will "lengthen" in one direction as it approaches a level position and "shorten" in the other direction relative to the overall toe setting. This creates excessive scrubbing and contributes to inner edge tire wear.
    A4 Motoza tuned Frankenturbo F21L / Bosch 550's / 3" MAF / TyrolSport SMIC / 034 HFC / TT 2.5" DP / Borla / Eibach ProKit / Koni Yellows / H-Sport F&R Bars / TyrolSport Brake Stiffeners / HyperShift Short Shifter / Podi
    A5 Mods to come: Little stuff so far. 20/25mm spacers / H&R OE Sport springs / 35% tint / Neuspeed Power Module / black window trim / RS grille.

  24. #24
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mozman68 View Post
    That’s fine...but there are definitive downsides to using toe to correct a camber issue as far as handling is concerned. I think that should be mentioned considering probably 99% of the people on here experiencing this issue are relying on their car to drive as optimally as possible during daily driving.

    Just saying that zeroing out the toe (or close to that) “fixes” what is definitely a camber issue is not true in any way.


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    Exactly why yet another reason adjustable arms are a waste on lowering that gives less than 2 deg neg camber. If all you did was bring camber back to .5 or so you are decreasing the handling at the limit.

    As you said you assume someone lowering with coilovers is doing so to enjoy spirited driving and getting camber close to neutral is not going to be optimal at all for performance driving. You want tgat negative camber to maximize contact patch in performance driving.

    Likewise running the car with .40 or so toe is terrible for performance driving. Getting it close to zero is going to improve turn-in dramatically.

    Your talking about going netral with camber and keeping a ton of toe which is great for a commuter bus but not a performance vehicle imo

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  25. #25
    Veteran Member Four Rings mozman68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhvrdr View Post
    Your talking about going netral with camber and keeping a ton of toe which is great for a commuter bus but not a performance vehicle imo
    Exactly...performance look with stock performance...what more than 95% of the people on here do with an A5/S5/RS5.




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