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  1. #81
    Established Member Four Rings Ape Factory's Avatar
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    If three and four are next to one and other, that's textbook blown head gasket. If they do a wet compression test with a bit of oil (I prefer ATF fluid!) and the compression goes up, it's rings.
    Instagram: redmist5 Youtube; https://tinyurl.com/redmistvideos
    2013 Audi RS5 Misano Red-Klassen ID M10/JHM Tune/AWE Exhaust/Eventuri Intake/Bilstein PSS10/H&R Sways/STERN/CR-15//ECS SS Brake Lines/Rear Diff Bushing/ECS rear diff inserts, front end links/034 Motorsports subframe inserts & Rear End Links/Tranny insert/E-code head, tail lights/Maxton splitter/Red Trim Start Button/black emblems/VCDS.

  2. #82
    Stage 3 Forum Advertiser Four Rings Jake@JHM's Avatar
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    As far as we got was pressurizing the coolant system before the vehicle was picked up by the customer. We were able to physically see coolant pooling into the cylinder.

    coolant getting into the cylinder can wash out the rings and that will cause wear on the cylinder walls as well as a lower compression reading.

  3. #83
    Veteran Member Four Rings ZimbutheMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape Factory View Post
    If three and four are next to one and other, that's textbook blown head gasket. If they do a wet compression test with a bit of oil (I prefer ATF fluid!) and the compression goes up, it's rings.
    My bad, I need to take more book learnin' classes hahaha

  4. #84
    Established Member Four Rings Ape Factory's Avatar
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    Meh, I read everything under the sun but it's no match for experiential learning and full immersion. Just blow up a few engines. It's amazing what you learn from that experience, LOL. Pulling an engine out then pulling it apart is a major character-building exercise. You'll question everything and sweat every detail from that point onward.
    Instagram: redmist5 Youtube; https://tinyurl.com/redmistvideos
    2013 Audi RS5 Misano Red-Klassen ID M10/JHM Tune/AWE Exhaust/Eventuri Intake/Bilstein PSS10/H&R Sways/STERN/CR-15//ECS SS Brake Lines/Rear Diff Bushing/ECS rear diff inserts, front end links/034 Motorsports subframe inserts & Rear End Links/Tranny insert/E-code head, tail lights/Maxton splitter/Red Trim Start Button/black emblems/VCDS.

  5. #85
    Established Member Three Rings Sazexa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape Factory View Post
    Meh, I read everything under the sun but it's no match for experiential learning and full immersion. Just blow up a few engines. It's amazing what you learn from that experience, LOL. Pulling an engine out then pulling it apart is a major character-building exercise. You'll question everything and sweat every detail from that point onward.
    Or changing a clutch on one of these cars... practically just as bad lmao
    Too many mods to list, too many more wanted

  6. #86
    Established Member Two Rings
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    I sure am glad I have the workshop manual - no way I could have gotten this far without it.

    I'll probably start new threads for these questions, but maybe one of you guys can help me out. I'm looking for sources for forged pistons, forged rods, crank and rod bearings, bolts that must be replaced, and a gasket set or rebuild set (gaskets, seals, plugs, etc.). I'm guessing I'll have to tap my German friends for this stuff (I worked for Zeiss for almost 8 years). This engine appears to have less aftermarket support than the engine in my Noble.




  7. #87
    Established Member Two Rings
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    BTW, forgot to mention that there is no sign of milkshake in the oil. Not in the drained oil, and not in the 87 gazillion little pockets that collect oil so it can drip on you.

  8. #88
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by NobleMan View Post
    I sure am glad I have the workshop manual - no way I could have gotten this far without it.

    I'll probably start new threads for these questions, but maybe one of you guys can help me out. I'm looking for sources for forged pistons, forged rods, crank and rod bearings, bolts that must be replaced, and a gasket set or rebuild set (gaskets, seals, plugs, etc.). I'm guessing I'll have to tap my German friends for this stuff (I worked for Zeiss for almost 8 years). This engine appears to have less aftermarket support than the engine in my Noble.
    Zeiss? Nice. Which division? I use Zeiss gear all the time!
    2013 RS5, 2014 Q7

  9. #89
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by rnp614 View Post
    Zeiss? Nice. Which division? I use Zeiss gear all the time!
    I did ophthalmic medical device design for Carl Zeiss Meditec. We were pretty isolated from their bread and butter lens and microscope groups. My last project there was the Clarus 500 retina camera.

  10. #90
    Established Member Four Rings Ape Factory's Avatar
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    Here's the good news...Audi uses many of the same parts/dimensions across various models. I know for a fact the piston/rod/ring/bearing combo in the B8.5 RS5 is the same one found in the R8 V10 through 2018. I've read the 4.2L B8 rod is identical to the 2.7TT rod. So if you cross reference various engines, you may find there are off the shelf parts available (assuming you know the OEM specs). If the RS5 piston works in the S5 4.2L V8 then JE Pistons makes a forged piston that'll work.

    With that said...if you have a rod/piston manufacturer of choice, they can probably make those parts to specification for a bit more than off the shelf. They may find the specs are similar to something already in production. For pistons just indicate they're for a boosted application and try to keep the rods/pistons close to OEM weight if possible. A quality engine builder can balance the assembly from there. I believe the crank is already forged, you'll just need to spec a quality bearing package, again, for boosted application/higher hp levels. OEM may be just fine, haven't done the research.

    Now there are a few "off the shelf" aftermarket parts.
    -Integrated Engineering makes a rod that should work in the B8 4.2L V8 motor but check with them directly. https://www.uspmotorsports.com/Integ...rged-Rods.html

    -IE link to their offerings: https://www.performancebyie.com/prod...ernals/pistons

    -034 Motorsports high flow intake/exhaust valves (if you want to take it that far) https://store.034motorsport.com/high...l-exhaust.html

    -JE makes a number of Audi pistons including the R8 piston for boost. They may have something that works. http://www.jepistons.com/Catalogs/Sp...udi/R8V10.aspx

    Other aftermarket companies I'd take a look at....Carrillo, Weisco, Pauter, Oliver, Ross Pistons, even Eagle who are more budget oriented. I used an Eagle stroker kit a long time ago on another make/model and they worked well. But all of them can do a custom piston/rod and set you up with a suitable ring/bearing package. It'll just take a bit of leg work and you may have to send them an OEM rod/piston/bearing package.
    Instagram: redmist5 Youtube; https://tinyurl.com/redmistvideos
    2013 Audi RS5 Misano Red-Klassen ID M10/JHM Tune/AWE Exhaust/Eventuri Intake/Bilstein PSS10/H&R Sways/STERN/CR-15//ECS SS Brake Lines/Rear Diff Bushing/ECS rear diff inserts, front end links/034 Motorsports subframe inserts & Rear End Links/Tranny insert/E-code head, tail lights/Maxton splitter/Red Trim Start Button/black emblems/VCDS.

  11. #91
    Established Member Two Rings
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    It's almost time for the halftime celebration! None of my old school engine tools (the stand!) work with the Audi 4.2, so there's been a lot of improvising in terms of how to hold the engine during disassembly. Most stuff came off while it was on the lift table, but the pan and oil pump parts had to come off while it was hanging from the engine hoist. Final short block disassembly will happen with the engine supported by 4x6 redwood blocks.

    The good news is that the engine is very light.

    Thanks to Ape for the component suggestions - much appreciated!


  12. #92
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    Well, not so fast, Bucko! It turns out that the forward thinking VW/Audi engine designers put two T30 fasteners in a well that is too narrow for a standard T30 socket. Of course they did. Because they could.

    I'm ready to bet $50 that the factory assumed nobody would try to rebuild the 4.2 except factory mechanics with all the Spezialwerkzeuge. Here's a pic of the latest showstopper. Amazon says they'll deliver a long reach torx socket set tomorrow (Sunday).

    The funny part is that I thought I was on top of the situation because I already had the beefy female torx socket that fits the main bearing bolts.


  13. #93
    Veteran Member Three Rings Hatchman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sazexa View Post
    Regarding the hardware securing the cats, they are notoriously hard to work with. I hate them lol
    Yep. The only bolt I've broken on this car is the one holding the passenger side lower cat when I installed the Borla exhaust. Luckily the Borla kit came with all new hardware.

    To the OP, this thread is really good. Having supercharged NA engines myselft, it is always interesting to see how an engine designed not to handle boost... handles boost.

    Looks like the compression was abnormally high in the other cylinders, while 4 and 5 were low from the probably, well if coolant was seen leaking in... likely blown head gasket. Wonder why compression was higher than normal specs in the other cyclinders? Maybe you had a higher than normal compression to start with.

    I also wonder how letting the unmetered air into the engine from the loose hoses and no clamps affected engine reliability. Boosted engines usually don't like unmetered air, especiallly ones with a bad tune to start with. I have no experience with JHM tunes, so can't say and not saying your tune was bad.

    But great thread and great info. Looks like I am never going to pull my engine, and will by an RS5 over a supercharger.
    Last edited by Hatchman; 02-17-2019 at 08:50 AM.
    2010 S5
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  14. #94
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Amazon delivered the long reach torx set already! That's just 18 hours after I ordered it.

  15. #95
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    1997 BMW M3 w/ CES Stage IV Turbo
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    Do you have any gauges? If you want to keep your interior gauge free, I use and highly recommend an OBD 2 scanner (elm327 for around $25) that you can leave plugged in, and the Torque app. You can monitor your boost/vac and AFRs, which I recommend at a minimum. They can be pretty telling and maybe not have prevented whatever you find, but possibly alerted to running lean in boost.
    1997 BMW M3
    CES Stage IV (651rwhp/615rwtq @ 24 psi)
    2013 Audi A4
    Prestige package, S-Line, 6-speed |IE Stage 2 | IE Performance Downpipe | S4 exhaust swap | ECS Luft-Technik intake | ECS Luft-Technik FMIC | RS4 grille

  16. #96
    Established Member Two Rings
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    The day my S5 quit running, I had made it about 100 yards from my driveway. The engine was misfiring, and then it died. I cranked it for some seconds thinking I could at least get it back to my house. The engine cranked normally, no unusual noises, but it wouldn't fire. I emailed JHM (about 30 minutes from my house) and called AAA, then had the car towed to JHM for diagnosis. Here's a screen shot of the email I sent to JHM.
    ================================================== =======



    ================================================== =======
    Remember that I said the engine cranked normally, but wouldn't fire.

    After deciding that JHM had enough of my money, I had AAA tow the car back to my garage and I commenced disassembly. While removing the bolts that tie the engine to the clutch, I found that the engine would not spin a full 360 degrees. It hit a very firm stop. Now I know why.

    Here's piston/rod #4.



    Edit #1: I don't want gauges in the Audi, but the scanner is a good idea.

    Edit #2: Rod #3 is also bent, but not as much.
    Last edited by NobleMan; 02-17-2019 at 02:42 PM.

  17. #97
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by NobleMan View Post
    The day my S5 quit running, I had made it about 100 yards from my driveway. The engine was misfiring, and then it died. I cranked it for some seconds thinking I could at least get it back to my house. The engine cranked normally, no unusual noises, but it wouldn't fire. I emailed JHM (about 30 minutes from my house) and called AAA, then had the car towed to JHM for diagnosis. Here's a screen shot of the email I sent to JHM.
    ================================================== =======



    ================================================== =======
    Remember that I said the engine cranked normally, but wouldn't fire.

    After deciding that JHM had enough of my money, I had AAA tow the car back to my garage and I commenced disassembly. While removing the bolts that tie the engine to the clutch, I found that the engine would not spin a full 360 degrees. It hit a very firm stop. Now I know why.

    Here's piston/rod #4.



    Edit: I don't want gauges in the Audi, but the scanner is a good idea.
    Wow....bent rod? I wouldnt think a supercharger would produce the torque that the stock rods couldnt handle.....guess you know now limit of stock rods
    1997 BMW M3
    CES Stage IV (651rwhp/615rwtq @ 24 psi)
    2013 Audi A4
    Prestige package, S-Line, 6-speed |IE Stage 2 | IE Performance Downpipe | S4 exhaust swap | ECS Luft-Technik intake | ECS Luft-Technik FMIC | RS4 grille

  18. #98
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMWManiac View Post
    Wow....bent rod? I wouldnt think a supercharger would produce the torque that the stock rods couldnt handle.....guess you know now limit of stock rods
    My theory is that the engine hydrolocked during JHM's diagnosis. Hydrolocking is known to bend rods. JHM said #4 cylinder had coolant in it (see post #76 in this thread), and #4 rod has the big bend.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrolock

    The engine cranked with no unusual noises before I had the car towed to JHM. After I got the car back from JHM, I could not rotate the engine a full revolution with a breaker bar.

    The bent rods in #3 and #4 probably also contributed to the low cranking cylinder pressure in those cylinders (see post 76). #3 is a little bent, #3 pressure is a little low. #4 is a lot bent and #4 pressure is a lot low.

  19. #99
    Stage 3 Forum Advertiser Four Rings Jake@JHM's Avatar
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    Unfortunately this happened before it was in our hands.

    Here is the time stamped note in our system:

    Oct 10, 2018 7:58:04 AM |Service (Quote)
    Customer Not Notified | Visible on Frontend No
    @service Upon vehicle drop off vehicle was very hard to start. When I finally did get the engine to start there was a loud tapping noise from bank 1 and white smoke from the exhaust. Shut off engine and Pushed vehicle into service bay and pulled codes. Multiple misfire codes stored. Due to the nature of the misfires performed compression test: Cyl 1: 225 Cyl 2: 225 Cyl 3: 170 Cyl 4: 140 Cyl 5: 225 Cyl 6: 225 Cyl 7: 225 Cyl 8: 245 Specification: New 145-203 PSI Wear limit: 130 PSI Max difference between cylinders: 43 PSI The vehicle is a little high on compression. Possible back pressure issue which could lead to excessive combustion chamber pressures and head gasket failure. After compression test results I used a boroscope to look into cylinder 4. Found coolant in cylinder 4 and partially steam cleaned piston and cylinder head. Pressurized cooling system and visually saw coolant leaking into cylinder 4. Looks like the head gasket has failed on bank 1 between cylinders 3 and 4 and into a coolant passage. Also noted coolant leakage from bank 1 downpipe. Pulled downpipe to inspect Catalytic converter. The catalytic converter looks to be intact but further inspection would be required to be sure.

  20. #100
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake@JHM View Post
    Unfortunately this happened before it was in our hands.

    Here is the time stamped note in our system:
    According to the time stamped note: "Upon vehicle drop off vehicle was very hard to start. When I finally did get the engine to start there was a loud tapping noise from bank 1..."

    I'm not accusing JHM of wrongdoing, I'm merely stating that starting an engine with coolant leaking into the cylinders can cause hydrolocking. The engine cranked freely and without knocking before the car was towed to JHM. I gave up cranking after about 10 seconds. It was clear that the ECU was not going to let it start. There was no sign of life.

  21. #101
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    1997 BMW M3 w/ CES Stage IV Turbo
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    So the blown headgasket was the actual issue and the bent rod was just collateral damage from coolant hydrolocking the motor? So back to the initial question....what would cause the headgasket to blow? Is it just the nature that these stock motors dont like boost?
    1997 BMW M3
    CES Stage IV (651rwhp/615rwtq @ 24 psi)
    2013 Audi A4
    Prestige package, S-Line, 6-speed |IE Stage 2 | IE Performance Downpipe | S4 exhaust swap | ECS Luft-Technik intake | ECS Luft-Technik FMIC | RS4 grille

  22. #102
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMWManiac View Post
    So the blown headgasket was the actual issue and the bent rod was just collateral damage from coolant hydrolocking the motor? So back to the initial question....what would cause the headgasket to blow? Is it just the nature that these stock motors dont like boost?
    I'm not convinced it's a blown head gasket. I haven't inspected them with magnification, but I don't see any obvious short circuits between coolant and combustion chamber.

  23. #103
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    Might be a good time to oring the block....maybe install a thicker headgasket to drop compression just a bit to run more boost :-)
    1997 BMW M3
    CES Stage IV (651rwhp/615rwtq @ 24 psi)
    2013 Audi A4
    Prestige package, S-Line, 6-speed |IE Stage 2 | IE Performance Downpipe | S4 exhaust swap | ECS Luft-Technik intake | ECS Luft-Technik FMIC | RS4 grille

  24. #104
    Stage 3 Forum Advertiser Four Rings Jake@JHM's Avatar
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    Let me know if I can be of any help sourcing anything you need or have any questions.

  25. #105
    Established Member Two Rings
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    I very carefully and gently cleaned the head gasket in my parts washer. I don't see a sign of obvious failure. Do you?

    Some of the raised blue sealing stuff stuck to the block and head surfaces rather than the gasket.




  26. #106
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    I took the block, crank, retaining frame (main bearing caps), rods/pistons/bearings/rings, and the heads to the shop that did the engine in my Noble, Rebello Racing. Dave Rebello agreed that the head gaskets did not have any obvious signs of failure, and that the #4 cylinder wall did not appear to be cracked. More investigation is needed!

    Meanwhile, I'm making a list of all the seals, gaskets, and fasteners that need to be "renewed" (as it says in the workshop manual). So far I have not found a comprehensive rebuild kit, which is a surprise. I expected Victor Reinz to have a kit with all the seals and gaskets, but no joy so far.

    It's some really bad juju to break one of these engines! I strongly recommend against it.

  27. #107
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by NobleMan View Post
    I took the block, crank, retaining frame (main bearing caps), rods/pistons/bearings/rings, and the heads to the shop that did the engine in my Noble, Rebello Racing. Dave Rebello agreed that the head gaskets did not have any obvious signs of failure, and that the #4 cylinder wall did not appear to be cracked. More investigation is needed!

    Meanwhile, I'm making a list of all the seals, gaskets, and fasteners that need to be "renewed" (as it says in the workshop manual). So far I have not found a comprehensive rebuild kit, which is a surprise. I expected Victor Reinz to have a kit with all the seals and gaskets, but no joy so far.

    It's some really bad juju to break one of these engines! I strongly recommend against it.
    That is crazy that you haven't found a clear source of the coolant leak....hope you find it because you definitely don't want to put it back together without identifying the source. JHM said that they put a borescope in there and saw coolant pour in, right? If it isn't the gasket, how else could coolant from a cooling passage get in there? It has to be via the head and not the block. I'm guessing perhaps a hairline crack in the head.

    As for a complete gasket set....I doubt VR believes these motors are under the knife often enough to create one and that its not worth it to make a set just yet :-)
    1997 BMW M3
    CES Stage IV (651rwhp/615rwtq @ 24 psi)
    2013 Audi A4
    Prestige package, S-Line, 6-speed |IE Stage 2 | IE Performance Downpipe | S4 exhaust swap | ECS Luft-Technik intake | ECS Luft-Technik FMIC | RS4 grille

  28. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMWManiac View Post
    JHM said that they put a borescope in there and saw coolant pour in, right? If it isn't the gasket, how else could coolant from a cooling passage get in there? It has to be via the head and not the block. I'm guessing perhaps a hairline crack in the head.
    JHM's tech said that he borescoped #4 and saw coolant entering the cylinder when the cooling system was pressurized. In the simpler engines that I'm familiar with, if that was really happening, it would have to to be a failed head gasket or a crack in the cylinder wall or the head. More investigation should reveal the smoking gun, but so far there are no signs of any of those failures.

    I poured at least a cup of coolant out of the intake plenum when I took it off. This makes me wonder if the coolant leak was outside of the long block. The Audi 4.2 has a lot of coolant lines running outside of the block and heads. It also has a lot of hoses connected to the intake side of the engine. These hoses will generally be sucking on whatever they're connected to, unless there is boost in the intake manifold. I have not figured out if both the cooling system and the intake tract come together in any of the gizmos outside of the engine. Maybe something outside of the engine failed after the blower installation that allowed coolant to be sucked into the cylinders.

    JHM's tech also wrote "Found coolant in cylinder 4 and partially steam cleaned piston and cylinder head." If he would have looked into the other cylinders, he would have seen that they all have about the same amount of carbon build up. #4 was not noticeably cleaner than the rest.

  29. #109
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    Quick update. I spent time today chasing pistons. Ape mentioned JE, and I had JEs in my nut job Camaro back in the dark ages (9.47 @ 148!), so I called them. In one of life's little coincidences, the JE sales guy said he knew my engine guy, Dave Rebello, and had been talking with Dave just 10 minutes before I called. I'm taking it as a good sign that the piston sales guy knows my engine guy. It give me at least the illusion that they'll take care of me!

  30. #110
    Established Member Four Rings Ape Factory's Avatar
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    That's great! I'll be interested in hearing what they come up with. Be sure to get weights for the piston/rod combo too. Hopefully you'll have the option of going with a set that's definitely stronger but lighter as well.
    Instagram: redmist5 Youtube; https://tinyurl.com/redmistvideos
    2013 Audi RS5 Misano Red-Klassen ID M10/JHM Tune/AWE Exhaust/Eventuri Intake/Bilstein PSS10/H&R Sways/STERN/CR-15//ECS SS Brake Lines/Rear Diff Bushing/ECS rear diff inserts, front end links/034 Motorsports subframe inserts & Rear End Links/Tranny insert/E-code head, tail lights/Maxton splitter/Red Trim Start Button/black emblems/VCDS.

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