Looks like we have a new TB option

[Tony@EPL]

Watch for a post in the EPL owners thread and sales thread soon. We have been testing for 2-3 months and shipped kits as recently as yestday! Our gains were higher when paired with a new ECU calibration.

[jimrobbington]

I heard from Issam a few months back that cost is likely to be 1/2 what APR charges for the Ultracharger so I’m curious to see where final pricing lands

Should be really interesting if IE also releases their 90mm Throttle Body as mentioned

I’m still a little thrown off by the plug n play piece because as many of you know an UC car will not run unless the specific UC Tune is installed

Not complaining at all but I’m definitely curious as to what makes these TBs proprietary? Is it the mounting/adapter harness?


Pete

This is due to the way APR does business. They don't want you to use their parts with other tuners products

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[PeteRock]

This is due to the way APR does business. They don't want you to use their parts with other tuners products

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Yes I understand that but if there is nothing proprietary about these TBs and or there is no tune required then we would all find out which TB they used and source it on our own for less money......something has to make the product hard to if not impossible to replicate

I don’t like or agree with the way that APR does business but any company that wants to make money would need to do something to protect their design


Pete

[waxxonMTL]

Watch for a post in the EPL owners thread and sales thread soon. We have been testing for 2-3 months and shipped kits as recently as yestday! Our gains were higher when paired with a new ECU calibration.

:) cool !

[bhvrdr]

I heard from Issam a few months back that cost is likely to be 1/2 what APR charges for the Ultracharger so I’m curious to see where final pricing lands

Should be really interesting if IE also releases their 90mm Throttle Body as mentioned

I’m still a little thrown off by the plug n play piece because as many of you know an UC car will not run unless the specific UC Tune is installed

Not complaining at all but I’m definitely curious as to what makes these TBs proprietary? Is it the mounting/adapter harness?


Pete

Id guess these are $200 parts but there has to be a wiring harness and electrical gizmos that allow it to work plug and play with our tuning as our TB works off a different signal than the common aftermarket ones so i'm guessing they have to do their magic with something in the wiring to get them to be correctly interpreted by our ECU. I dont doubt this can be hacked by folks. Someone with a MUCH better knowledge of electronics will explain this better than me lol

mike

[PeteRock]

Id guess these are $200 parts but there has to be a wiring harness and electrical gizmos that allow it to work plug and play with our tuning as our TB works off a different signal than the common aftermarket ones so i'm guessing they have to do their magic with something in the wiring to get them to be correctly interpreted by our ECU. I dont doubt this can be hacked by folks. Someone with a MUCH better knowledge of electronics will explain this better than me lol

mike

Yep....that’s what I was curious about when they said it was plug n play and can be used with/without a tune


Pete

[Indepth]

Id guess these are $200 parts but there has to be a wiring harness and electrical gizmos that allow it to work plug and play with our tuning as our TB works off a different signal than the common aftermarket ones so i'm guessing they have to do their magic with something in the wiring to get them to be correctly interpreted by our ECU. I dont doubt this can be hacked by folks. Someone with a MUCH better knowledge of electronics will explain this better than me lol

mike

Odds are the analog signal can be scaled up or down to match the OEM analog values in a matched, scaled, relationship. I do this all the time with industrial electronics in the controls industry.

However, as someone that tunes in the GM/Ford/Dodge world - this plug n play method may be more of a cheater method than appropriately dialing in the tune for the increased TB size. Normally, in the tune there's a field called "ETC Scaler" which is the calculated area of the throttle body itself. The ECU uses this field to adjust for measured airflow, which, in turn, trickles down to calculations of fueling, timing, etc... With the signal simply modified and scaled at the TB itself then the ECU isn't accurately measuring the airflow anymore which can cause off calculations and a lack of power as well as a lack of adjusting for environmental changes.

I'd be curious to learn a bit more on HOW this plug and play option is actually functioning before I threw it on my car. But then again, I'm overly anal and read far too much into things because I'm weird and need to know how everything works. ;)

[JD S4]

Stoked to see the EPL results above

I’m a little surprised no one mentioned the decrease in WTQ but as mentioned - worst case scenario with terrible conditions and heatsoak


Sent from my

[bhvrdr]

Odds are the analog signal can be scaled up or down to match the OEM analog values in a matched, scaled, relationship. I do this all the time with industrial electronics in the controls industry.

However, as someone that tunes in the GM/Ford/Dodge world - this plug n play method may be more of a cheater method than appropriately dialing in the tune for the increased TB size. Normally, in the tune there's a field called "ETC Scaler" which is the calculated area of the throttle body itself. The ECU uses this field to adjust for measured airflow, which, in turn, trickles down to calculations of fueling, timing, etc... With the signal simply modified and scaled at the TB itself then the ECU isn't accurately measuring the airflow anymore which can cause off calculations and a lack of power as well as a lack of adjusting for environmental changes.

I'd be curious to learn a bit more on HOW this plug and play option is actually functioning before I threw it on my car. But then again, I'm overly anal and read far too much into things because I'm weird and need to know how everything works. ;)

See I knew someone could explain this ;)

Stoked to see the EPL results above

I’m a little surprised no one mentioned the decrease in WTQ but as mentioned - worst case scenario with terrible conditions and heatsoak


Sent from my

Id really like to see all the dyno runs on a plot. It would help alot in interpretation. Im by no means challenging them but would like to learn from them. Dynos are finicky. I have literally seen my car dyno 25whp differences on the exact same dyno on the same day during the same session making no changes at all. So it would be cool to see this session and even better maybe someone will datalog with the dyno so you can see all the confounding variables at play and make sure they were controlled.


Mike

[Fresh.S4]

Id guess these are $200 parts but there has to be a wiring harness and electrical gizmos that allow it to work plug and play with our tuning as our TB works off a different signal than the common aftermarket ones so i'm guessing they have to do their magic with something in the wiring to get them to be correctly interpreted by our ECU. I dont doubt this can be hacked by folks. Someone with a MUCH better knowledge of electronics will explain this better than me lol

mike

the only thing that comes to mind is frequency manipulation.
they are taking a common signal and changing it to something else.
(probably way off)

A is doing this by means of software tweaks
B is doing this by means of a harness


something basic was just discovered and now the race is on to get the same product out the fastest.
(just like ots tunes)





EDIT/// damnit!! someone beat me to it a few posts up ^^^^^^^^

I think snow performance does this with one of their mkv specific controller boxes, changing the maf signal into something else...

[Indepth]

See I knew someone could explain this ;)


Mike

[DBFL]

I just got home from Tampa AutoSports. Unfortunately I was stuck in rush hour traffic the entire way back home. So there isn’t that much to report. It was stop-and-go traffic for most of the drive but also a 70mph cruise over the bridge.

The car performs perfectly in traffic. Drivability is excellent. No weird throttle behavior at all, which is a possibility when changing to a non-OEM electronic throttle body.

I’ll be taking the car out over the weekend for some more spirited driving, so I’ll have more (better) information over the weekend.

[GID]

Which one are you running? 75?

I just got home from Tampa AutoSports. Unfortunately I was stuck in rush hour traffic the entire way back home. So there isn’t that much to report. It was stop-and-go traffic for most of the drive but also a 70mph cruise over the bridge.

The car performs perfectly in traffic. Drivability is excellent. No weird throttle behavior at all, which is a possibility when changing to a non-OEM electronic throttle body.

I’ll be taking the car out over the weekend for some more spirited driving, so I’ll have more (better) information over the weekend.

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[GID]

Also, can you please tell me if it uses a o ring or gasket to seal?

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[evil35r]

Ordered through prebuy whoop!!!

[DBFL]

Also, can you please tell me if it uses a o ring or gasket to seal?

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Gasket

[AdamInKC]

Pre-ordered!

[Rodizzle]

Where do we preorder ?


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[DBFL]

Where do we preorder ?


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Issam posted a link on this Facebook group:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/106852433320781/

I’m not sure how to copy the link to the exact post from my iPad (I’m sure I can do it from my PC, but it’s 2:30am and I don’t feel like getting up to turn it on). If you’re not part of that group, you should be able to join and it’ll be one of the top posts.

[killer_s4]

What about us that don’t use FB ?

[Loe]

Odds are the analog signal can be scaled up or down to match the OEM analog values in a matched, scaled, relationship. I do this all the time with industrial electronics in the controls industry.

However, as someone that tunes in the GM/Ford/Dodge world - this plug n play method may be more of a cheater method than appropriately dialing in the tune for the increased TB size. Normally, in the tune there's a field called "ETC Scaler" which is the calculated area of the throttle body itself. The ECU uses this field to adjust for measured airflow, which, in turn, trickles down to calculations of fueling, timing, etc... With the signal simply modified and scaled at the TB itself then the ECU isn't accurately measuring the airflow anymore which can cause off calculations and a lack of power as well as a lack of adjusting for environmental changes.

I'd be curious to learn a bit more on HOW this plug and play option is actually functioning before I threw it on my car. But then again, I'm overly anal and read far too much into things because I'm weird and need to know how everything works. ;)

I would imagine with us being MAP based and our MAF is calculated, deviating too far from the OEM 70mm TB would increase the chances of the calculation being needed. At any rate, products are marketed in a way sometimes to where the end user gets confused, producers will always push the size of what they have available for a sale, so use your best judgement.

...time to ramp mine up to 90mm soon (Aftermarket Hemi replacements) , or simply remove the back side of the shaft on my 80mm Hemi unit which frees up 4mm for "free"

[Tony@EPL]

Stoked to see the EPL results above

I’m a little surprised no one mentioned the decrease in WTQ but as mentioned - worst case scenario with terrible conditions and heatsoak


Sent from my

In our testing... when staying with a conservative size upgrade, there was no lose in torque (in fact there were significant gains). Then going too big, there's no additional peak horse power gains but there as low end losses (pretty significant if you go too big). We tested several sizes btw.

[Indepth]

I would imagine with us being MAP based and our MAF is calculated, deviating too far from the OEM 70mm TB would increase the chances of the calculation being needed. At any rate, products are marketed in a way sometimes to where the end user gets confused, producers will always push the size of what they have available for a sale, so use your best judgement.

...time to ramp mine up to 90mm soon (Aftermarket Hemi replacements) , or simply remove the back side of the shaft on my 80mm Hemi unit which frees up 4mm for "free"

Our MAF is calculated, correct. Which further proves the point that if we're doing analog scaling to match the OEM scalar it has to be done dead nuts on otherwise you'll have inconsistencies.

I'm not sure me as an end user is confused here. I think I'm more 'in-tune' with what is required to run a larger than OEM TB and because of this want to know how exactly the new part is being incorporated to our cars.

I wonder what the diminishing return point of TB sizing is based on CFM... The TVS1320 can only handle so much air into it before you create more problems than power.

[Loe]

Our MAF is calculated, correct. Which further proves the point that if we're doing analog scaling to match the OEM scalar it has to be done dead nuts on otherwise you'll have inconsistencies.

I'm not sure me as an end user is confused here. I think I'm more 'in-tune' with what is required to run a larger than OEM TB and because of this want to know how exactly the new part is being incorporated to our cars.

I wonder what the diminishing return point of TB sizing is based on CFM... The TVS1320 can only handle so much air into it before you create more problems than power.

IE saw some HP gains and no loss in TQ when they tested their 90mm Hemi unit, without any tuning involved (albeit a small gain). I'm curious to see their findings post-tune, which hasn't been published yet as they are still testing their software/hardware.

[RWD2quattro]

Pre-ordered!

Did you ordered the 75mm as per his email?

[Chris@EPL]

This is obviously the most optimistic comparison on base run vs throttle body run.... however we VERY consistently saw 10-12+ whp gains through most of the power band with slightly larger gains past 6500.

[Thurston]

IE saw some HP gains and no loss in TQ when they tested their 90mm Hemi unit, without any tuning involved (albeit a small gain). I'm curious to see their findings post-tune, which hasn't been published yet as they are still testing their software/hardware.

No loss of Torque is surprising. On the dyno, Evan at Tampa AutoSports saw a loss w the testing of this TB or a TB option and i believe w the UC you see a loss of torque. Could be interesting.

[Tony@EPL]

No loss of Torque is surprising. On the dyno, Evan at Tampa AutoSports saw a loss w the testing of this TB or a TB option and i believe w the UC you see a loss of torque. Could be interesting.

We tested several different sizes and definitely saw some pretty significant torque losses once you crosses a certain point. Bigger is not better!

This solution is a truly "tuned" size that is a great match for 98% of the cars that are stage 2 or beyond. I have not tested on stage 1 yet, but my guess would be you would be better off upgrading to stage 2 or dual pulley before doing this.

I have a 82mm TB kit in house as well that we will be testing next time we have a car with a "big set up" on the dyno.

[waxxonMTL]

What about us that don’t use FB ?

welcome to 2018 buddy !

[whiped]

Hmmm... I wonder which one is mine

[Rodizzle]

Hmmm... I wonder which one is mine

The empty box in the bottom left hand corner is mine


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[Adamantium]

Odds are the analog signal can be scaled up or down to match the OEM analog values in a matched, scaled, relationship. I do this all the time with industrial electronics in the controls industry.

However, as someone that tunes in the GM/Ford/Dodge world - this plug n play method may be more of a cheater method than appropriately dialing in the tune for the increased TB size. Normally, in the tune there's a field called "ETC Scaler" which is the calculated area of the throttle body itself. The ECU uses this field to adjust for measured airflow, which, in turn, trickles down to calculations of fueling, timing, etc... With the signal simply modified and scaled at the TB itself then the ECU isn't accurately measuring the airflow anymore which can cause off calculations and a lack of power as well as a lack of adjusting for environmental changes.

I'd be curious to learn a bit more on HOW this plug and play option is actually functioning before I threw it on my car. But then again, I'm overly anal and read far too much into things because I'm weird and need to know how everything works. ;)

I’m new to this, so correct me if I’m wrong but the above is only relevant for cars that run on MAF.

The 3.0TFSi runs on speed density from the factory doesn’t it?

[Whitee]

How do you order this if you don’t have Facebook?


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[Indepth]

I’m new to this, so correct me if I’m wrong but the above is only relevant for cars that run on MAF.

The 3.0TFSi runs on speed density from the factory doesn’t it?

Almost all boosted cars run on speed density. But the ETC Scalar field is still used in calculations for the tune overall even if the MAF is removed from the equation.

The S4’s MAF is calculated as mentioned above.

[Adamantium]

Posts above confirm this. If running speed density - map sensor based, there is no need to calculate the maf value. The maf value is sensitive to the diameter of the pipe it’s in because the maf oxygen reading is proportional to the cross sectional area. If you change the diameter of the intake pipe (usually same as the throttle body) you need to rescale the maf sensor output.

As I said, we don’t need to do that. A like for like drop in should improve volumetric efficiency which means at the same boost pressure there will be more airflow without more fuel than previously. This will cause the car to run slightly lean. This indicates that the mod has worked but also gives a little power at the expense of some safety net.

You’d do well to also retune slightly to compensate.

Better VE means you can make the same power on less boost or more power on the same boost as before the swap.

FYI, I’ve ordered a 75mm throttle body from Issam for my 2015 CREC engine S5 here in the UK.

[killer_s4]

welcome to 2018 buddy !

Thanks. Now do you have an answer to my question?

[Bartlett]

Is there a verdict yet on the attractiveness of a 75mm TB on a car that doesn't get re-tuned?

[jimrobbington]

I love how some people refuse to Facebook.

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[jimrobbington]

How do you order this if you don’t have Facebook?


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Thanks. Now do you have an answer to my question?

Try contacting issam directly...

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[DBFL]

Is there a verdict yet on the attractiveness of a 75mm TB on a car that doesn't get re-tuned?

We didn’t retune my car when testing this. I’m still on a stage 2+ DP tune from GIAC. It picked up 8+ whp after being severely heatsoaked. And that’s with it being over 100 degrees at the dyno. So if we had given the car time to cool back down it would have produced more power.

We will be flashing a tune specifically for a larger throttle body and a porter blower. And we’ll go back to the dyno once we verify that the tune works as expected. Then we’ll test it on MS109 (105 octane).