A slow ass 400 CHP project thread

[AudiB720TS]

The 'TSq' edition A4
My car is a 2006 build (H2) A4 Avant 2.0T with the mythical "TS" designation, a name that you probably never heard of. Supposedly TS spells out "Turbo Sport", but the actual designation in vehicle registration is "SPORT QUATTRO" - a name added by Audi Sweden celebrating some rally car and/or rally victory from back in the day where one of the drivers was Swedish (Stig Blomqvist). Anyways, the mainstream 'TS' was introduced with the B6 generation Audi A4, and with the introduction of the B7 they somehow talked the motoring press into believing the new 'TS' had forged internals, different gearing, and higher horsepower. In 'for sale' ads in Sweden you still see owners claiming these features as well as things like "lightened flywheel" and "different turbo".

In reality I have not seen any evidence for the TS having forged internals or different gearing etc. On the contrary, the engine code (BUL for the 2006/2007 model year) and parts databases shows no distinction at all. What the TS did have however, was (most of this is from the 2006 Audi fact sheet and price list that I have retained):

• 220 horsepower factory tune*
• Drilled front brake rotors
• S-Line exterior package
• S4 chassis (The TS is listed with the same suspension line item as the S4)
• Sport seats
• Aluminium 'facette' detailing on interior

*Performance figures for the TSq is 6.9sec 0-60 (compared to 7.2 for the normal 2.0T) and 300 Nm of tourqe (compared to 280 Nm for the 2.0T)

Made at the 'RS' factory
VIN numbers for the 'TS' starts with "WUA" tracing it back to the original Audi RS factory ('Quattro GmbH', but nowadays called 'Audi Sport') where the RS2, RS4, RS6 and S4 cars were/are made.

Anyways, my particular car also has leather and suede seats, Bose sound system and a couple of other options like glovebox refrigerator, CD changer, and window curtains (just to mention a few of the extras). The car has one previous owner, and had around 61.000 miles on it when I bought it in 2017.

Goal(s)
The main goal for the car is to take it to 300 wheel horsepower. I have since project start rephrased this goal as 400 crank horse power, which translates to 300++ wheel

Videos (adding more):


0-60+++ (soft launch).


On the race track.


Building the engine (near completion).


First startup with fully forged engine.


CURRENT MODIFICATIONS
The following is on the car currently (list updated 2024):

Intake

• 'BMC' air filter
• Air straightener (honeycomb element)

Exhaust

• 'BSR' 3" downpipe with 200 cell catalytic converter
• 'Milltek Sport' unresonated catback exhaust
• 'Milltek Sport' GT100 exhaust tips

Fueling

• VW Golf 6R injectors
• Audi S3 200 bar fuel pressure sensor
• Autotech HPFP (with 5mm inlet)
• Roller follower conversion (RS4)
• Audi R8 fuel pump control module
• 'Dynodrome' 155 bar (F)PRV
• 6 bar fuel filter

Turbo charging

• 'Airtec' FMIC
• Audi S3 4 bar MAP sensor
• 'Loba Motorsports' LO400L hybrid turbo (ported exhaust manifold)
• 'Go Fast Bits' manual boost controller
• 'BSR' boost pressure gauge

Engine

• Audi R8 coil packs
• 'NGK' Iridium IX (8) spark plugs
• '034 Motorsports' engine mounts
• 'K1' forged connecting rods
• 'Diamond Pistons' forged pistons (CR: 9.8:1)
• 'ACL' Race rod bearings
• 'ACL' Race main bearings
• 360 degree main cap bearing
• Ported cylinder head
• Audi S3 (CDL) intake camshaft
• Audi S3 (CDL) exhaust camshaft
• Runner flap deletion
• 'Wasa Motors' freewheel (balance shaft deactivation)
• 'ARP' head studs

Transmission

• 'ECS Tuning' single mass flywheel (aluminum)
• Audi RS4 clutch

Suspension / handling

• 'H&R' lowering springs
• RS4 Rear Sway Bar
• 'Powerflex' rear anti-roll bar bushings
• Audi S4 B7 power steering relay
• 'Eibach' hub-centric spacers

Brakes

• 'Brembo' 4 piston front calipers
• 'Brembo' drilled rotors (front)

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[texasboy21]

In my 12 years in the B6 and B7 (and Audi realm in general) I have never heard anything about a ‘TS’ model. Do you have any documentation from Audi on the subject?

[AudiB720TS]

In my 12 years in the B6 and B7 (and Audi realm in general) I have never heard anything about a ‘TS’ model. Do you have any documentation from Audi on the subject?

Yes, sure.

I am also on the UK forum where apparently they had their own (slightly different) special edition A4 Avant, simply called 'Special Edition'. So there are going to be some (g)localized versions of the car.
You find 'TS' in this price list (in Swedish, but you can do Ctrl + F and search for "TS"): http://faktablad.audisverige.com/pdf...ril%202006.pdf
​
Here's a screen grab where you see the name and 220 hp rating:



BTW, It's the first time I make note that the TS is listed as heavier than the regular 2.0T. The plot thickens on the forged internals claim (?) or maybe its the sports seats being standard (but why would they be heavier?)?

[aluthman]

All 2.0T FSI engines have a forged crank, some had forged pistons, and none had forged rods that I know of.

[xDeadTacox]

Sounds like it is a Swedish version of the Special Edition and or DTM Edition - motor wise. Both made 220 hp but simply featured re-flashed PCM's from Audi to make the extra 20 hp.

Regardless, looks like you have a sweet ride so far! I love wagon's so I am a bit jealous of your Avant but I digress. As for Stage 2 power, for most Stage 2 tunes (Unitronic, APR, Revo, etc) they make somewhere in the 230-250 crank horsepower range, so to the wheels thats about 200 I think? With 300 whp being your goal, you'll probably need a bigger turbo (K04) at least, as the highest numbers ive seen on a K03 are in the high 200's to low 300's at the crank..

[krewbrew]

In answer to the horsepower question, I guess that it will dyno at 215 awhp.

[Flygman]

Nice to see another swede on here for once Where did you source your stage 2 hardware from? I've been importing my stuff from ECS but it's pretty damn expensive in tolls & tax...

Just to add to your "TS-specs list", the front brakes are 8mm larger than stock and uses S4 calipers (not S4 caliper carriers though, upgrade them and you can mount 340mm S4 rotors).

[AudiB720TS]

Nice to see another swede on here for once Where did you source your stage 2 hardware from? I've been importing my stuff from ECS but it's pretty damn expensive in tolls & tax...

Yeah, it is what it is. ECS also sometimes splits an order into multiple packages making it even more expensive to export. I buy from JHM or ECS, and use a freight forwarder.

Just to add to your "TS-specs list", the front brakes are 8mm larger than stock and uses S4 calipers (not S4 caliper carriers though, upgrade them and you can mount 340mm S4 rotors).

I did think the caliper looked large (almost the size of the Brembo's on my old STI), but is there any source to prove what you are saying, that they are S4 calipers???

[AudiB720TS]

Sounds like it is a Swedish version of the Special Edition and or DTM Edition - motor wise. Both made 220 hp but simply featured re-flashed PCM's from Audi to make the extra 20 hp.

Regardless, looks like you have a sweet ride so far! I love wagon's so I am a bit jealous of your Avant but I digress. As for Stage 2 power, for most Stage 2 tunes (Unitronic, APR, Revo, etc) they make somewhere in the 230-250 crank horsepower range, so to the wheels thats about 200 I think?

Thanks,
I do expect it to be higher than that since its very accurate dyno and no wheel spin etcetera is involved (just maybe clutch slippage). But we shall se.

In answer to the horsepower question, I guess that it will dyno at 215 awhp.

If it gets only 215 AWHP I might call it quits already. Would just be too much to make up for on Stage 3 then.
Thanks for the input.

[i3oricua]

You’ll get much higher than that. You’ll be somewhere in the 260-280 whp range will be my guess. Here’s mine way back on stage 2+ but on a Mustang dyno. Yours should be higher because of the different dyno.




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[AudiB720TS]

Adding exterior shots (also updating the original post with these).

Obviously this is not how it looked coming out of the RS factory (more on that claim later).
I have added:

• S4 mirror caps (actual S4 salvaged mirrors)
• Black optics roof rail
• Black optics grille
• Black Audi badges front and rear
• Audi S4 rims
• Milltek Sport exhaust with the GT 100mm tips

Black optic grille, S4 mirrors, black optic roof rail etc.


Rear shows the Milltek exhaust and black Audi badge (all other badges were removed).


Audi S4 wheels (BBS CH). I found these brand new when Audi was getting rid of old stock.

[AudiB720TS]

You’ll get much higher than that. You’ll be somewhere in the 260-280 whp range will be my guess.

280 CHP is what Stertman Motorsports claims for Stage 2+ (RS4 PRV, upgraded IC) although they did not have a dyno at that time (they now have a Mustang dyno).

My best hope is to see 250 WHP, but I would be more than happy on 240 WHP. Below that and I don't know...

[Flygman]

I did think the caliper looked large (almost the size of the Brembo's on my old STI), but is there any source to prove what you are saying, that they are S4 calipers???

Here's a thread. https://www.audi-sport.net/xf/thread...o-b7-s4.84350/
It's a pretty well known upgrade, couldn't dig up any more threads right now though.

[AudiB720TS]

Here's a thread. https://www.audi-sport.net/xf/thread...o-b7-s4.84350/
It's a pretty well known upgrade, couldn't dig up any more threads right now though.

I don't see anything in that thread on the (UK) Special Edition having S4 calipers, just that some people are contemplating S4 "carriers" (I guess this means "mounting brackets") to fit larger rotors,no?

I will take the wheels of for the ROTOTEST dyno so I can check my caliper part numbers then and cross-reference to the S4.

[canadianA4B7]

Be aware quatttro eats 20-25% of power from crank to wheels. If your goal is 300@ wheels you’ll need more like 420 at crank.

I have not dyno new setup but the GTX 2863 I ran only 396 at crank (no meth) which sadly was 3 hp shy of your goal. I’ll also add this tune is now in a members track car running a GTX 2867 and larger hotside then initially dynoed, I’d put good money on it he will dyno somewhere 300-350 on all 4 corners.

[AudiB720TS]

Be aware quatttro eats 20-25% of power from crank to wheels.

I think this is dyno vendor 'guesstimation': you measure power at the wheels, right, and then the dyno vendor or you dyno operator will add some percentage based on assumed drivetrain losses to give you "engine power".
The wheel number should be the more accurate of the two, but adding 20%-25% gives the bragging rights (e.g. "I have 500 horse", when all I really know is that there are 400 at the wheels). So with most dynos it's the customer 'feel good' number, no?

[krewbrew]

280 CHP is what Stertman Motorsports claims for Stage 2+ (RS4 PRV, upgraded IC) although they did not have a dyno at that time (they now have a Mustang dyno).

My best hope is to see 250 WHP, but I would be more than happy on 240 WHP. Below that and I don't know...

280 crank is 210 at the wheels, assuming 25% drivetrain loss.

[AudiB720TS]

Today I am working on getting the car ready for dyno (Tuesday).

I have cleaned the MAF sensor, the Boost Pressure Sensor, and the ECS catch can. I also reviewed the ECS catch can installation again, and found the (preinstalled) baffles were not fitted as documented so I fixed that.
Most time consuming has been cleaning the intake tract and filter; There was some amount of debris on the outside of the air filter which should not have been able to pass the pre-filter (net). I think its because the sections of the intake tract are not sealing well enough. Because of this [and to reduce entry of warm air from the engine] I am taping the sections together using black duct tape. Also adding a silicone lining to the pre-filter thingy (see image) to have it seal better. It makes installation more permanent but I figure I can still shake and rinse it clean when needed.

I am now off to my garage to do an oil (Motul Specific) and filter (MANN) change.



"Rejuvinating" the BMC air filter and sealing the section of the intake tract, with duct tape.

[almorris93]

280 CHP is what Stertman Motorsports claims for Stage 2+ (RS4 PRV, upgraded IC) although they did not have a dyno at that time (they now have a Mustang dyno).

My best hope is to see 250 WHP, but I would be more than happy on 240 WHP. Below that and I don't know...

You should really take a look at the official dyno thread we have.


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[EvolutionArmory]

Be aware quatttro eats 20-25% of power from crank to wheels. If your goal is 300@ wheels you’ll need more like 420 at crank.

I have not dyno new setup but the GTX 2863 I ran only 396 at crank (no meth) which sadly was 3 hp shy of your goal. I’ll also add this tune is now in a members track car running a GTX 2867 and larger hotside then initially dynoed, I’d put good money on it he will dyno somewhere 300-350 on all 4 corners.

Do you believe that drivetrain loss percentage stays constant when you add power? Drivetrain loss is like 20% on a 200 HP car. Stock power is 200 HP and generally we see 160 WHP on the dyno. 20%. But when you double the power to 400 HP, drivetrain loss percentage should go down and then probably plateau. The drivetrain weighs the same and only needs a certain amount of power to move.

Say a K04 makes 320 HP at the crank. These will usually dyno at 270-275 to the wheels. That’s only 15% drivetrain loss. HP went up, drivetrain loss % went down.

A 400 CHP car would probably see even less drivetrain loss % because power went up but the drivetrain still weighs the same and only needs a certain amount of power to move. Adding more power will add more heat and friction and induce its own strains on the drivetrain under hard excelleration but the % should still be less than a 200 HP car.

To make a more extreme example, a 1000HP car isn’t going to lose 200 HP from drivetrain loss when it’s 200 HP brother in stock form only lost 40 HP.

To get 300 WHP, you’d probably only need 350 CHP. -15% is 297 WHP.

[tloft4]

i was wondering that too; if it scaled or was more of a constant. and also if yours is factory tuned higher, wouldnt it be fair to call that like "stage .5" and after any ecu mods its on par with a base 2.0t? either way, gl and looking forward to updates. theres also a build section above if you desired to put it there instead (not that this bothers me)

[EvolutionArmory]

i was wondering that too; if it scaled or was more of a constant. and also if yours is factory tuned higher, wouldnt it be fair to call that like "stage .5" and after any ecu mods its on par with a base 2.0t? either way, gl and looking forward to updates. theres also a build section above if you desired to put it there instead (not that this bothers me)

There’s no real clear answer. Although the drivetrain weight stays the same, increasing HP substantially will add heat and strain on the drivetarain in its own ways. The power needed to turn the rotational mass will stay the same. But the added friction you get from transfering that energy will add strain of its own.

It basically comes down to adding power to a degree where you’re still in the efficiency range of the components SHOULD make drivetrain loss less or plateau to a certain degree.

Clear as mud, right? Lol

[canadianA4B7]

There’s a ton of factors for these calculations. More spinning creates more heat, create more resistance. More mechanical load or torque (traction) working against power will create again more heat again creating more resistance. Quattro has a lot of stuff to make it work a lot of weight in gearing, axles, differentials (3 I believe). So I cannot give you a definitive answer only what me and EPY spoke about many moons ago.

An example from first hand. I removed the mechanical fan from my Sierra and went electric. I was seeing consistently on phone app on tuned 5.3 305 HP 320 tq on mechanical fan. After removing I see consistent 335 hp 348 tq same app same rd same foot to floor. So that’s about 16 lbs of weight removed directly from the crank. So theres 100% drivetrain loss from weight of mechanical rotating parts alone. Figures and numbers I can only assume on Quattro to be about 20-25%. The subie guys also generally use the 15% rule. Which I believe is gone to the way side as the factors for calculating losses are pretty tricky.

[EvolutionArmory]

Oh, no doubt using a generic number like 15% doesn’t apply when you crack 350 CHP. There’s so many variables.

It makes sense to me that drivetrain loss goes down to a point of diminishing returns or a point where it meets a plateau. When you then ask for demands outside of the systems efficiency, those factors (heat and friction) then negate the percentage loss to a more noticeable degree.

I just don’t see drivetrain loss staying 20-25% when you break the 300-400 CHP mark.

It definitely makes for an interesting conversation.

[tloft4]

There’s no real clear answer. Although the drivetrain weight stays the same, increasing HP substantially will add heat and strain on the drivetarain in its own ways. The power needed to turn the rotational mass will stay the same(call this x). But the added friction you get from transfering that extra energy(this is y) will add strain of its own(this is z).

It basically comes down to adding power to a degree where you’re still in the efficiency range of the components SHOULD make drivetrain loss less or plateau to a certain degree.

Clear as mud, right? Lol

in any instance that y>z, will result in diminishing losses, which should be pretty much always. mud just needs a good centrifuge

[Charles.waite]

All 2.0T FSI engines have a forged crank, some had forged pistons, and none had forged rods that I know of.

I know the Golf R/S3/etc had beefier reciprocating parts:

notes
the 162 kW (only Polo R WRC) and higher versions have stronger pistons and gudgeon pins, new rings, reinforced connecting rods, new bearings, reinforced cylinder block at the main bearing pedestals and cap, new lightweight aluminium-silicon alloy cylinder head for high temperature resistance and strength, adjusted exhaust camshaft timing, increased cross-section high-pressure injectors, 1.2 bars (17.4 psi) (value only valid for Audi S3(8P)) boost pressure K04 turbocharger with larger turbine and compression rotor (S3, Cupra, GTI Edition 30), of which some components are NOT shared with the lower output variants

Not sure if that means forged internals though.

[EvolutionArmory]

I think that means a thicker center section of the cast factory rods? Reinforced but not forged most likely.

[aluthman]

I think that means a thicker center section of the cast factory rods? Reinforced but not forged most likely.

I’m pretty sure that’s what they did.

[EvolutionArmory]

I’m pretty sure that’s what they did.

That aggregates the shit out of me. Why have 2 different part numbers for a cast connecting rod? Why not just use the better one across multiple models? It would probably save them money because they wouldn’t have to have made 2 molds for different castings. Lol!

Making a mold for casting is pretty expensive. It drives me nuts when manufacturers have a better part in something that could have been used in all models and cost almost nothing more to produce.

[Charles.waite]

Well you’re adding mass to a reciprocating internal engine part so you lose efficiency there.

It’s not all about cost of manufacture.

[EvolutionArmory]

A fair point. It still makes me mad that I don’t have them though 🤬🤬

[Charles.waite]

Haha I know.

I toyed with finding a CDL engine from a Golf R but it doesn’t really make sense given how uncommon they are. FSI engines are damn expensive usually...

[AudiB720TS]

Well, what a day (can I curse on here!?)!

I NEED HELP!


I came down with something flu-like on Sunday (or maybe it was all the brake cleaner I used during my oil change...), but made the one hour drive to the dyno today anyway.

The car was dynoed by the shop manager who's also their head ECU tuner. A very reputable guy. He came out after a minute or so and said: "I can HEAR the engine knock" (Swedish slang used was "spikar" which is uncontrolled combustion: I guess therefore in English: 'knock' or 'detonation').

Of additional concern he also said: "When I let go, the engine jumped from 4000 RPM to 6000 before dropping again".

Of course, he suggested we did not proceed with additional dyno runs (usually they do three passes).
Seeing that my number was within the expected range given the mods, although not as good as I wanted, I was "OK" to call it quits in order to save the engine to try another day.

I will of course post up the graph and numbers (here and in the dyno thread) but I would really appreciate your thoughts on the following first:

KNOWN BADS:

1. Engine burns oil since the Stage 2 tune (but these cars are known to burn oil so what...)
2. Car failed emissions tests with CO (Carbon Monoxide) values out or range (all other emissions values were good, including A/F ratio)*

*My working assumption is that my HFC is fried -either because I bought it used or because the engine burning oil into it has reduced its efficiency.

KNOWN GOODS:

1. Old sparkplugs (removed June) looked picture perfect when removed
2. Compression is OK (178 psi, 175 psi, 172 psi & 190 psi), also checked in June

We discussed a bit, and while it would require further analysis on the car, two things are sticking, echoing in the back of my head:

1. Why would the ECU not retard ignition on detecting knock? I mean if the guy hears it from inside the car, then its gone a bit far. The ECU should protect the engine. He said that "some tuners" will disregard knock or increase ignition as soon as the knock is not present (too soon) and so on. I will ask JHM what they do in this regard, but your experience and commentary would be welcome.
   
2. The tuner said the engine revved 2K RPMs by itself, why? He said: "Maybe because of oil in the combustion chamber". Or "because of how the ECU tune handled pedal/throttle input".

Those were just two ideas he threw in the mix, but it resonates with me. My car burns oil, more than it did so could there be oil getting burned off forcing the engine to race??? On the other hand my old spark plugs were fine and if I am having excessive oil in the cylinders surely the plugs would show, no!? The knock could also be a separate issue (just going circles here) because the ECU expects US 93 whereas my (EU 98) fuel uses more ethanol. Contrary to what people on forums say, US 93 is the higher octane purer fuel.



So I am looking at a ECU tune issue and/or an engine mechanical issue...




Here's how the ROTOTEST dyno looks. It wasn't in the 'dyno cell' I expected, but I doubt the outcome would have differed.

[Charles.waite]

Why didn’t he just monitor the knock sensor values instead of “I can hear it!!”

FSI engines are loud as fuck at the best of times, but oil in the combustion chamber won’t make the rpms surge.

[EvolutionArmory]

RPM surging sounds like clutch slipping? Or a torque converter if you’re auto? Maybe it desnt translate from Swedish.

Looks like timing pull and knock sensor voltage logs would be the next step? Or maybe ask your tuner how much experience he has with Audi direct injection engines.

[EvolutionArmory]

As far as your fuel goes, the tune should have enough headroom to adapt to a couple octane points. You could throw in a couple gallons/liters of 100 to help equalize it.

[AudiB720TS]

Why didn’t he just monitor the knock sensor values instead of “I can hear it!!”

I think that’s a minor detail, but I paid for a dyno to get hp/torqe not to tune it. I could have paid extra to get sensor readouts and so on, but that was not my interest today. I was not there for tuning or troubleshooting so only dyno was connected.

FSI engines are loud as fuck at the best of times, but oil in the combustion chamber won’t make the rpms surge.

What if (throttle position being equal) you have a pool of oil. It gets combusted. The combustion of the oil forces the engine to rev. As the oil is burned off, engine RPMs fall. No?

[AudiB720TS]

As far as your fuel goes, the tune should have enough headroom to adapt to a couple octane points. You could throw in a couple gallons/liters of 100 to help equalize it.

I will change from Shell V-Power to a better 98 octane grade and go to another shop that does VAG exclusively.

[AudiB720TS]

RPM surging sounds like clutch slipping?

That was my first though. But he said it happened in neutral (coming OUT of gear). Logically if it disengage and foot it off the gas pedal then engine RPM should start to drop. Hence also the other theory about how the ECU reads throttle position vs actual position.

That said, I drive this car hard a lot and i have not seen these things. A part from the oil burning issue which might be picking up steam so to speak.

[texasboy21]

Do you have vagcom or a why to data log? Any logs of the dyno run?