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  1. #1
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Did someone crack the ECU?

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    https://www.mtm-online.de/en/Audi/S4...T=m4s4354435qc

    The translation isnít the best. What do you guys think?


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  2. #2
    Senior Member Three Rings S4_Pedro's Avatar
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    6k euros for stage one And air filter 🤨


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  3. #3
    Active Member One Ring
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    aint no way anyone is paying 6.5k Euros for a airfilter and a tune lol

    but when everyone is saying the S4 ECU encryption is different with other ECU and them having it perhaps its like a preorder?

  4. #4
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by junhojin123 View Post
    aint no way anyone is paying 6.5k Euros for a airfilter and a tune lol

    but when everyone is saying the S4 ECU encryption is different with other ECU and them having it perhaps its like a preorder?
    Not sure. Kind of interesting.


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  5. #5
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    Thats European pricing which usually includes powertrain warranty. Us prices are different. Very interesting though.

    Mike

    2010 Audi A4 Avant 6AT - Unitronic Tuned - Bone Stock Hardware
    13.665 at 97.71mph - 93 octane - +1250DA
    Gone:
    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic Stage 2++ ECU & TCU, 3.17pr, Revo Charge Cooler, CTS Turbo Intake, ST60 380mm BBK
    11.482 at 118.70mph - 97 octane - +465DA
    --------------------------
    2016 A6 -- 2015 S4 -- 2009 A4 -- 2004 S4 -- 2006 A4 -- 2003 A4 -- 2000 A4

  6. #6
    Established Member Three Rings
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    430 to the wheels with a shitty stage 1 tune thats still in RND.... Yeah this b9 as I predicted is going to be a beast.....

    B8 S4 lineup still good car, but WAY overpriced now....

    - - - Updated - - -

    People still asking 30k+ for b8.5 s4 that have unreliable DSG and parasitic supercharging

  7. #7
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    MTM AND ABT are always overpriced. Im not sure who their clients are, stupid rich people?
    I contacted APR, they told that they are super close now.

  8. #8
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickLim View Post
    430 to the wheels with a shitty stage 1 tune thats still in RND.... Yeah this b9 as I predicted is going to be a beast.....
    430 at the crank, not wheels...and MTM isn't known for poor products.

    Also not sure why you're hating on the previous generation of S4. Every car has their strengths and weakness.

    Regardless, I'm excited to see the development of the new engine and what future tuning has in store.
    C7 A6 3.0T, APR Stage 2+, P3U TCU tune, 3.56PR, Tampa Motorsports Porter Blower, 75mm Porsche 997 911 TB and some other goodies.

    0-60mph 3.10 seconds
    0-100mph 7.62 seconds
    1/4 mile 11.30 @121.90

  9. #9
    Established Member Three Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by p3u View Post
    430 at the crank, not wheels...and MTM isn't known for poor products.

    Also not sure why you're hating on the previous generation of S4. Every car has their strengths and weakness.

    Regardless, I'm excited to see the development of the new engine and what future tuning has in store.
    Not hating on shit I have a a6 3.0t with the supercharger

  10. #10
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickLim View Post
    430 to the wheels with a shitty stage 1 tune thats still in RND.... Yeah this b9 as I predicted is going to be a beast.....

    B8 S4 lineup still good car, but WAY overpriced now....

    - - - Updated - - -

    People still asking 30k+ for b8.5 s4 that have unreliable DSG and parasitic supercharging

    Its 430 to the crank. MTM and ABT are not known for producing "shitty" stage 1 tunes. They are actually certified in europe as car manufacturers and have facilities for testing that rival Audi's own testing facilities. MTM is right down the block from Audi in Ingolstadt and has a million dollar dual MAHA dyno cell that audi has been known themselves to use for testing.

    As I predicted you're going to need turbo upgrades to make serious power. Thats not a shocker as Audi doesnt usually thrown on oversized turbos on their cars. Nothing wrong with that but some people will be hesitant to kill the warranty on a 60K dollar car.

    Just as an FYI, the DSG on the 2013+ S4 cars is pretty darn bullet proof as is the engine. you can pick them up all day for 27 grand.

    Mike

    2010 Audi A4 Avant 6AT - Unitronic Tuned - Bone Stock Hardware
    13.665 at 97.71mph - 93 octane - +1250DA
    Gone:
    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic Stage 2++ ECU & TCU, 3.17pr, Revo Charge Cooler, CTS Turbo Intake, ST60 380mm BBK
    11.482 at 118.70mph - 97 octane - +465DA
    --------------------------
    2016 A6 -- 2015 S4 -- 2009 A4 -- 2004 S4 -- 2006 A4 -- 2003 A4 -- 2000 A4

  11. #11
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhvrdr View Post
    Thats European pricing which usually includes powertrain warranty. Us prices are different. Very interesting though.

    Mike
    It also includes the 19% tax.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhvrdr View Post
    Just as an FYI, the DSG on the 2013+ S4 cars is pretty darn bullet proof as is the engine. you can pick them up all day for 27 grand.

    Mike
    I believe it is manufactured post May 2013 to be precise.
    2015 monsoon grey S5 sportback (yes the one with 4 doors)
    - MRC stage 2 (189mm Vdamper/Fluidampr crank pulley)

  13. #13
    Senior Member Two Rings Nez136's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhvrdr View Post
    Its 430 to the crank. MTM and ABT are not known for producing "shitty" stage 1 tunes. They are actually certified in europe as car manufacturers and have facilities for testing that rival Audi's own testing facilities. MTM is right down the block from Audi in Ingolstadt and has a million dollar dual MAHA dyno cell that audi has been known themselves to use for testing.

    As I predicted you're going to need turbo upgrades to make serious power. Thats not a shocker as Audi doesnt usually thrown on oversized turbos on their cars. Nothing wrong with that but some people will be hesitant to kill the warranty on a 60K dollar car.

    Just as an FYI, the DSG on the 2013+ S4 cars is pretty darn bullet proof as is the engine. you can pick them up all day for 27 grand.

    Mike

    As you predicted?

    Every single piggy back out right ONLY adjusts boost.... which I get indirectly adjusts fuel but there is no direct fuel or timing control.

    Cranking 70 hp out of a motor by adjusting just boost doesnít say a damn thing about the capability of the motor. I tuned cars for years and years and the real power came from the timing advance.

    Adding just only few degrees of timing thro the power band could add even more power than any piggy back out right now.

    Thatís why the B8s did so well.... bc they cracked the ecu and took full control.

    The turbo may be a limiting factor, BUT, getting control of IATs with proper cooling and adjusting timing will give far more power than people on this board are anticipating.


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    '05 Evo 2.3 HTA35r

  14. #14
    Established Member Two Rings
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    With our Bosch ECU's, all we can do is lower the target boost to trick the ecu into making a few extra lbs of boost (4-6 lbs max see JB4 website or competition) , which makes the ecu add fuel and timing. Not exactly optimal tuning, but there is LOTS of knock prevention built into the new Bosch ECU. They are safe to run as long as you're not going nuts.

    The BMW counterpart of our ECU is cracked.... google missionperformance, they are flashing cars now with huge gains, now that they can manipulate timing, fuel, and other parameters and have full access into the ECU...... and APR is not far behind from what I was told by a very accurate source.

    My guess is that we should be able to see 435-450 crank on 93 octane once we have full control by reputable tuners. Piggy backs are dynoing at about 410-425 right now (converted to crank HP).

  15. #15
    Established Member Three Rings
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    lol this engine is so underrated - it's about the platform...

    Just wait in a few years this will be the enthusiast dream car

    ZF 8 Speed, Weight Reduction, Turbo Swap Possible

    Possibly even 500hp to the wheels on pump gas with this platform and it's probably going to be extremely reliable all around

  16. #16
    Established Member Three Rings
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    I'd buy it right now if I could wisely afford it


    The biggest downside to the b8 s4 is the supercharger and then the DSG - this car solves both problems.

    Just wait this car will absolutely shit on everything on the road when the tuners go wild on it

  17. #17
    Established Member Three Rings
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    B9 S4 will be my next car, right now I have c6 a6 3.0t which IMO is too similar to a b8 s4 to justify buying one.


    B9 S4 will be the next big gap in performance

  18. #18
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nez136 View Post
    As you predicted?

    Every single piggy back out right ONLY adjusts boost.... which I get indirectly adjusts fuel but there is no direct fuel or timing control.

    Cranking 70 hp out of a motor by adjusting just boost doesnít say a damn thing about the capability of the motor. I tuned cars for years and years and the real power came from the timing advance.

    Adding just only few degrees of timing thro the power band could add even more power than any piggy back out right now.

    Thatís why the B8s did so well.... bc they cracked the ecu and took full control.

    The turbo may be a limiting factor, BUT, getting control of IATs with proper cooling and adjusting timing will give far more power than people on this board are anticipating.


    Sent from my iPhone using Audizine
    Yes, like I predicted...

    https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...1#post12242952



    Log your timing and retard. Audi is very aggressive with timing and allows factory IKC to reduce it to safe levels. Most tuners have to reduce timing when then increase boost unless a race fuel program. I'm betting on stock boost your seeing timing retard throughout the rev band. Again, this isnt a bash on the B9 at all but we all know Audi doesnt strap big turbos on their engines which produce lag. A turbo swap is going to give you all the power you want but you're not going to pick up 100whp at 6000rpm and up with the stock turbos.

    Mike

    2010 Audi A4 Avant 6AT - Unitronic Tuned - Bone Stock Hardware
    13.665 at 97.71mph - 93 octane - +1250DA
    Gone:
    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic Stage 2++ ECU & TCU, 3.17pr, Revo Charge Cooler, CTS Turbo Intake, ST60 380mm BBK
    11.482 at 118.70mph - 97 octane - +465DA
    --------------------------
    2016 A6 -- 2015 S4 -- 2009 A4 -- 2004 S4 -- 2006 A4 -- 2003 A4 -- 2000 A4

  19. #19
    Senior Member Two Rings Nez136's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhvrdr View Post
    Yes, like I predicted...

    https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...1#post12242952



    Log your timing and retard. Audi is very aggressive with timing and allows factory IKC to reduce it to safe levels. Most tuners have to reduce timing when then increase boost unless a race fuel program. I'm betting on stock boost your seeing timing retard throughout the rev band. Again, this isnt a bash on the B9 at all but we all know Audi doesnt strap big turbos on their engines which produce lag. A turbo swap is going to give you all the power you want but you're not going to pick up 100whp at 6000rpm and up with the stock turbos.

    Mike
    Iím not seeing anything on that thread that shows this.
    Iím just seeing a sewing circle of people talking up or complaining. Iíd find it hard to believe any car in stock form is pulling timing thro the entire power curve unless the user of the vehicle put in 87 octane fuel.

    And no most tuners do not reduce timing when increasing boost. They do at first to hit their target boost then they bring in the timing. Most experienced tuners know that you get more power from timing advance than boost. Iíd rather run stock boost levels with advancing timing and adding fuel than turning up boost.

    If I pick up a JB4 when it comes out Iíll see what the logging capabilities are with it and post some logs. Not trying to prove you wrong but Iíve been pretty well rounded in the tuning world.

    I just watched my buddyís m4 get remote tuned, and they dialed in the boost... then the next run on the dyno the tuner says, ďnow here comes the timingĒ, picked up 70whp with just advancing timing. Obviously the m4 is a whole different and more capable beast but it goes to show what timing does and how conservative oem is.


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    '11 S4
    '05 Evo 2.3 HTA35r

  20. #20
    Stage 2 Banner Advertiser Four Rings Kai@EliteMS's Avatar
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    We just did a MTM Cantronic upgrade on a B9 RS5, nice gains.
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  21. #21
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nez136 View Post
    Iím not seeing anything on that thread that shows this.
    Iím just seeing a sewing circle of people talking up or complaining. Iíd find it hard to believe any car in stock form is pulling timing thro the entire power curve unless the user of the vehicle put in 87 octane fuel.

    And no most tuners do not reduce timing when increasing boost. They do at first to hit their target boost then they bring in the timing. Most experienced tuners know that you get more power from timing advance than boost. Iíd rather run stock boost levels with advancing timing and adding fuel than turning up boost.

    If I pick up a JB4 when it comes out Iíll see what the logging capabilities are with it and post some logs. Not trying to prove you wrong but Iíve been pretty well rounded in the tuning world.

    I just watched my buddyís m4 get remote tuned, and they dialed in the boost... then the next run on the dyno the tuner says, ďnow here comes the timingĒ, picked up 70whp with just advancing timing. Obviously the m4 is a whole different and more capable beast but it goes to show what timing does and how conservative oem is.


    Sent from my iPhone using Audizine

    Audi has never been very conservative with timing. We have stock B8 S4 routinely pulling well over 12 degrees of knock retard bone stock on 91 octane....

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing


    I'm not saying its impossible but I cant think of any Audis that come with oversized turbos to give you huge gains up top nor that are not using the factory IKC system to pull back timing. They run very aggressive timing targets even more now for fuel efficiency but rely on the extremely capable IKC to bring it within safe limits. If you run race gas or e85 thats different but on pump 91 and 93 I'll be shocked if you're not already pulling a significant amount of timing.

    2010 Audi A4 Avant 6AT - Unitronic Tuned - Bone Stock Hardware
    13.665 at 97.71mph - 93 octane - +1250DA
    Gone:
    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic Stage 2++ ECU & TCU, 3.17pr, Revo Charge Cooler, CTS Turbo Intake, ST60 380mm BBK
    11.482 at 118.70mph - 97 octane - +465DA
    --------------------------
    2016 A6 -- 2015 S4 -- 2009 A4 -- 2004 S4 -- 2006 A4 -- 2003 A4 -- 2000 A4

  22. #22
    Established Member Two Rings Marzoum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai@EliteMS View Post





    We just did a MTM Cantronic upgrade on a B9 RS5, nice gains.
    Ball park on gains? Cost of unit? How to get? Lol

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Audizine mobile app

  23. #23
    Senior Member Two Rings Nez136's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhvrdr View Post
    Audi has never been very conservative with timing. We have stock B8 S4 routinely pulling well over 12 degrees of knock retard bone stock on 91 octane....

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing


    I'm not saying its impossible but I cant think of any Audis that come with oversized turbos to give you huge gains up top nor that are not using the factory IKC system to pull back timing. They run very aggressive timing targets even more now for fuel efficiency but rely on the extremely capable IKC to bring it within safe limits. If you run race gas or e85 thats different but on pump 91 and 93 I'll be shocked if you're not already pulling a significant amount of timing.
    Iím guessing the g418 field is the knock Iím reading with the amount of timing pulled?
    Iíve never ran 91 octane. Tho that timing curve doesnít look that bad at all. Iíve never once seen another data log with good fuel pull timing on a stock car like that ever.


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    '05 Evo 2.3 HTA35r

  24. #24
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nez136 View Post
    Iím guessing the g418 field is the knock Iím reading with the amount of timing pulled?
    Iíve never ran 91 octane. Tho that timing curve doesnít look that bad at all. Iíve never once seen another data log with good fuel pull timing on a stock car like that ever.


    Sent from my iPhone using Audizine
    Yup. I can show you an infinite amount although for sure its much worse on 91 octane. 4-5 degrees on 93. This is how audi purposefully tunes since simos with aggressive timing and using IKC which works really well. They do the same thing with fuel... target .9 lambda to redline but youll never ever actually see .9 at redline bc they rely on iat enrichment table to fatten it up top so you'll actuall see .79 up top even though .9 is targeted

    Mike

    2010 Audi A4 Avant 6AT - Unitronic Tuned - Bone Stock Hardware
    13.665 at 97.71mph - 93 octane - +1250DA
    Gone:
    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic Stage 2++ ECU & TCU, 3.17pr, Revo Charge Cooler, CTS Turbo Intake, ST60 380mm BBK
    11.482 at 118.70mph - 97 octane - +465DA
    --------------------------
    2016 A6 -- 2015 S4 -- 2009 A4 -- 2004 S4 -- 2006 A4 -- 2003 A4 -- 2000 A4

  25. #25
    Senior Member Three Rings nicotino15's Avatar
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    Speaking of logging, I love JB4 logs. Not as comprehensive as logging via vcds, but just nice simple logs I get on my phone without having to do anything complicated. I can view them, send via email, export in csv and use the desktop app to look in more depth.

    Anyway, bottom log is on map 3 (4psi target), and top is map 5 (6psi target). The top seems to have more timing advance, but it's also on E30 whereas top is on regular 93.

    RO Help-08.png

    RO Help-07.png

  26. #26
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    I today spoked one the best local tuners, he told this new B9 ECU is very difficult to crack. It reminds him one BMW model that came out in 2010 and Ecu was cracked in 2014. His guess is this will be the same 4-5 years... so piggyback tunes are for now our only possibility. He will try to tune my gearbox, he hopes it's the same as on the rs7 and they are tuning these 8zf everyday.

  27. #27
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicotino15 View Post
    Speaking of logging, I love JB4 logs. Not as comprehensive as logging via vcds, but just nice simple logs I get on my phone without having to do anything complicated. I can view them, send via email, export in csv and use the desktop app to look in more depth.

    Anyway, bottom log is on map 3 (4psi target), and top is map 5 (6psi target). The top seems to have more timing advance, but it's also on E30 whereas top is on regular 93.

    RO Help-08.png

    RO Help-07.png

    Yeah you are getting more timing because the ECU must have been pulling timing and when you introduced some e30 into the mix the ECU automatically advanced timing. I wouldnt be surprised if there is plenty more on the table too the more e85 you add.


    Not to be alarmist but are you concerned that your high boost program is making 13.6:1 AFR from 5300rpm to redline?

    Mike

    2010 Audi A4 Avant 6AT - Unitronic Tuned - Bone Stock Hardware
    13.665 at 97.71mph - 93 octane - +1250DA
    Gone:
    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic Stage 2++ ECU & TCU, 3.17pr, Revo Charge Cooler, CTS Turbo Intake, ST60 380mm BBK
    11.482 at 118.70mph - 97 octane - +465DA
    --------------------------
    2016 A6 -- 2015 S4 -- 2009 A4 -- 2004 S4 -- 2006 A4 -- 2003 A4 -- 2000 A4

  28. #28
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhvrdr View Post
    Yeah you are getting more timing because the ECU must have been pulling timing and when you introduced some e30 into the mix the ECU automatically advanced timing. I wouldnt be surprised if there is plenty more on the table too the more e85 you add.


    Not to be alarmist but are you concerned that your high boost program is making 13.6:1 AFR from 5300rpm to redline?

    Mike

    I thought the same thing but isn't that part of the beautify of DI that you can run leaner and it still be safe due to the increased cooling ability of the fuel being directly sprayed into the cylinders? Would be interesting to get a stock log and compare it to the JB4 maps.

  29. #29
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -LoneStar- View Post
    I thought the same thing but isn't that part of the beautify of DI that you can run leaner and it still be safe due to the increased cooling ability of the fuel being directly sprayed into the cylinders? Would be interesting to get a stock log and compare it to the JB4 maps.
    Under WOT the DI cars are running just as fat of AFR up top because they still have cats that need protecting. It would be interesting to see a stock log but i'd be shocked if its leaner than 11.5:1 up top. You can see his low boost file is 12.4:1 so we know its leaning out from even that which I would guess is leaned out from stock.

    Mike

    2010 Audi A4 Avant 6AT - Unitronic Tuned - Bone Stock Hardware
    13.665 at 97.71mph - 93 octane - +1250DA
    Gone:
    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic Stage 2++ ECU & TCU, 3.17pr, Revo Charge Cooler, CTS Turbo Intake, ST60 380mm BBK
    11.482 at 118.70mph - 97 octane - +465DA
    --------------------------
    2016 A6 -- 2015 S4 -- 2009 A4 -- 2004 S4 -- 2006 A4 -- 2003 A4 -- 2000 A4

  30. #30
    Senior Member Three Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickLim View Post
    430 to the wheels with a shitty stage 1 tune thats still in RND.... Yeah this b9 as I predicted is going to be a beast.....

    B8 S4 lineup still good car, but WAY overpriced now....

    - - - Updated - - -

    People still asking 30k+ for b8.5 s4 that have unreliable DSG and parasitic supercharging
    Quote Originally Posted by NickLim View Post
    lol this engine is so underrated - it's about the platform...

    Just wait in a few years this will be the enthusiast dream car

    ZF 8 Speed, Weight Reduction, Turbo Swap Possible

    Possibly even 500hp to the wheels on pump gas with this platform and it's probably going to be extremely reliable all around
    Quote Originally Posted by NickLim View Post
    I'd buy it right now if I could wisely afford it


    The biggest downside to the b8 s4 is the supercharger and then the DSG - this car solves both problems.

    Just wait this car will absolutely shit on everything on the road when the tuners go wild on it
    Quote Originally Posted by NickLim View Post
    B9 S4 will be my next car, right now I have c6 a6 3.0t which IMO is too similar to a b8 s4 to justify buying one.


    B9 S4 will be the next big gap in performance
    So far, this thread has chiefly been about this guy trying to publicly reassure himself that he wants a B9 S4 over a B8 S4...

  31. #31
    Established Member Two Rings DirtyDog--IRL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S4Gibbs View Post
    So far, this thread has chiefly been about this guy trying to publicly reassure himself that he wants a B9 S4 over a B8 S4...
    some people need to read the words to see the world more clearly


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



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