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  1. #1
    Veteran Member Four Rings ZimbutheMonkey's Avatar
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    Water/Meth injection on an NA engine, worth it? I'd say so :)

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    So I just finished moving my water/meth injection kit from my cabrio to my sedan. I knew from past experience that it made a noticable difference, however I had not really had a chance to properly document it.

    Well, I had a 3 hour trip on open highway where I had a chance to do a series of good 3rd gear WOT pulls to get some data and here are the results. About 10 AWHP over the entire power curve. That shouldn't come as much of a surprise as the W/M allows me to keep about 35-42 degrees timing advance throughout the entire RPM band as well as drastically cooling the intake charge.

    WM VS NO WM DYNO V2 by zimbu themonkey, on Flickr

    What I don't want to get into are the absolute numbers. The important info here is the DELTA between the W/M runs and the non W/M runs. As well, I know that there is a 50 Kg difference between some of the runs. The weight difference is due to some of the runs being done on a full tank of fuel vs an empty tank. 50 liters of fuel is roughly 50 Kg worth of weight. Furthermore, before the W/M runs, I verified the car weight at a calibrated government weigh scale. I even took a picture of it in case the naysayer crowd wanted to challenge it.
    s4 weigh in july 28 2018 by zimbu themonkey, on Flickr
    This B6/B7 S4 forum is brought to you by the refreshing taste of Kool-Aid... OH YEAH!!!!!

    My car has a real tune. Tuned by me. Just because your not smart enough to tune you own car don't ruin a thread.

  2. #2
    Veteran Member Four Rings ZimbutheMonkey's Avatar
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    Quick update, I just finished flogging my car WOT for about 15 minutes in 25C summer heat and when I stopped and popped the hood, the manifold was actually COLD to the touch. Not lukewarm, but actually cold, like someone had put a bag of ice on it.

    Anyone who knows anything about these engines knows just how much of a difference that makes HP and Tq wise...
    This B6/B7 S4 forum is brought to you by the refreshing taste of Kool-Aid... OH YEAH!!!!!

    My car has a real tune. Tuned by me. Just because your not smart enough to tune you own car don't ruin a thread.

  3. #3
    Veteran Member Four Rings dsgray16's Avatar
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    You have my attention... whatís your setup and how much?
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  4. #4
    Veteran Member Four Rings ZimbutheMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsgray16 View Post
    You have my attention... whatís your setup and how much?

    Here's a pic

    dual nozzle water meth s4 by zimbu themonkey, on Flickr

    I have a Devil's Own with a stage 2 MAF based controller, about $425. Since I had a couple extra nozzles laying around from my other kits, I decided to do a dual nozzle setup. Reason being is that in my opinion, the longer the 'corridor' of W/M spray, the more heat will be taken out of the air.

    If anyone plans on doing something similar, I'll give you all a cheat code. Rather than have to pull the intake elbow, I just put a shop-vac nozzle right next to where I drilled the second port to pull the shrapnel away and out of the intake tract.

    If I was to do it over again, I think I'd buy the Devil's Own customabizle tuner kit http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/...uners-kit.html and the torquebyte controller https://torqbyte.com/products/torqbyte-cm5-lt

    Bang for the buck, the torquebyte controller is by far the best on the market as far as I'm concerned.
    Last edited by ZimbutheMonkey; 06-29-2018 at 05:38 PM.
    This B6/B7 S4 forum is brought to you by the refreshing taste of Kool-Aid... OH YEAH!!!!!

    My car has a real tune. Tuned by me. Just because your not smart enough to tune you own car don't ruin a thread.

  5. #5
    Veteran Member Four Rings q_dubz's Avatar
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    Bravo sir

  6. #6
    Active Member Two Rings
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    Diy would be nice lol. This gives me hope not to do a swap and keep my v8.

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  7. #7
    Senior Member Four Rings Terry.Reese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZimbutheMonkey View Post
    Here's a pic

    dual nozzle water meth s4 by zimbu themonkey, on Flickr

    I have a Devil's Own with a stage 2 MAF based controller, about $425. Since I had a couple extra nozzles laying around from my other kits, I decided to do a dual nozzle setup. Reason being is that in my opinion, the longer the 'corridor' of W/M spray, the more heat will be taken out of the air.

    If anyone plans on doing something similar, I'll give you all a cheat code. Rather than have to pull the intake elbow, I just put a shop-vac nozzle right next to where I drilled the second port to pull the shrapnel away and out of the intake tract.

    If I was to do it over again, I think I'd buy the Devil's Own customabizle tuner kit http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/...uners-kit.html and the torquebyte controller https://torqbyte.com/products/torqbyte-cm5-lt

    Bang for the buck, the torquebyte controller is by far the best on the market as far as I'm concerned.
    Always teasing me with new shit to do....
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    JHM intake spacers, DIY intake flapper mod, ported TB, heat wrap IM, 034 motor mounts, 15mm wheel spacers, ZimbuCAI, ZimbuTune, A8 D2 exhaust manifolds.

  8. #8
    Veteran Member Four Rings q_dubz's Avatar
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    i just want to point out....your gauge needle is crooked LOL

  9. #9
    Veteran Member Four Rings ZimbutheMonkey's Avatar
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    So, I finally had a chance to get some shots with the IR gun after 10 min of hard driving. If this doesn't make the case for the benefits of W/M I don't know what will...

    20180704_185325 by zimbu themonkey, on Flickr

    20180704_185329 by zimbu themonkey, on Flickr
    This B6/B7 S4 forum is brought to you by the refreshing taste of Kool-Aid... OH YEAH!!!!!

    My car has a real tune. Tuned by me. Just because your not smart enough to tune you own car don't ruin a thread.

  10. #10
    Veteran Member Four Rings ZimbutheMonkey's Avatar
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    36C/100F reduction (and possibly more) in intake temps and no one has yet to comment on this...?

    Hell, at the 1x10F rule, that's 10 CHP in just cooling alone, then add the 4-5 degrees worth of timing you can add as a result of the anti det properties.

    All said, W/M on these cars appears to be worth a consistent 15-20 CHP.... and that's not even addressing the extra benefits like the cleaning of the combustion chambers and the added safety that you get in case you DO get something like a lean condition on a cylinder.

    Hell, people regularly pay 3X more than what one of these systems are worth when they buy a catback exhaust which makes less gains.

    Finally, given how sensitive the RS4 is to timing pull and carbon build up, I would think that they would be all over this.

    Finally, after driving in the heat for more than a week, my impressions are this: You know when you start out in the morning and the car feels nice, torquey and sharp (until it warms up). Imagine having that feeling consistently, even in the summer heat.
    This B6/B7 S4 forum is brought to you by the refreshing taste of Kool-Aid... OH YEAH!!!!!

    My car has a real tune. Tuned by me. Just because your not smart enough to tune you own car don't ruin a thread.

  11. #11
    Established Member Two Rings jrow26's Avatar
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    Iím really thinking about doing this ... one question... I think I see you have two injection points one at the filter and one at the intake elbow? Is that good enough or would having a port at each of the intake runners be better? I was thinking it may be duel purpose cooling and cleaning the valves... is this possible? Or is it to much effort for nothing?


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  12. #12
    Veteran Member Four Rings q_dubz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrow26 View Post
    Iím really thinking about doing this ... one question... I think I see you have two injection points one at the filter and one at the intake elbow? Is that good enough or would having a port at each of the intake runners be better? I was thinking it may be duel purpose cooling and cleaning the valves... is this possible? Or is it to much effort for nothing?


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    Funny you should mention that...

    IMG_20180707_171458.jpg

    I just got started on that today.

    BASICALLY, without getting technical, the closer you are too the combustion chamber, the more you're aiding in "octane" increase.

    The farther... The more you're focused on cooling.

  13. #13
    Established Member Two Rings jrow26's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by q_dubz View Post
    Funny you should mention that...

    IMG_20180707_171458.jpg

    I just got started on that today.

    BASICALLY, without getting technical, the closer you are too the combustion chamber, the more you're aiding in "octane" increase.

    The farther... The more you're focused on cooling.
    Damn!! We really need tower up I want to
    See this beast in person! So whatís the part list look like? Did you have to upgrade anything like the pump or controller? I wonder if you can also put an extra port in the intake elbow for cooling as well or is that too much for the system..


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  14. #14
    Veteran Member Four Rings q_dubz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrow26 View Post
    Damn!! We really need tower up I want to
    See this beast in person! So whatís the part list look like? Did you have to upgrade anything like the pump or controller? I wonder if you can also put an extra port in the intake elbow for cooling as well or is that too much for the system..


    Sent from my iPhone using Audizine
    i have the fittings to add an additional couple nozzles for cooling (which i'm considering) but i'm gonna test my intercooler more before i make that decision.

    As for parts list:

    Snow UHO Pump
    5L resevoir (overkill)
    20ft of 3/8 line (pump and res in the trunk)
    Solenoid (prevents vacuum siphoning)
    8x Direct Port nozzles
    8x PTC fittings
    2x Distro blocks

    Cortex EBC for controlling my boost and the water/meth


    I'll be buttoning her up tomorrow if i can find this damn fitting i lost -_-

  15. #15
    Established Member Two Rings jrow26's Avatar
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    Nice! Definitely let us know how it works out for you...


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  16. #16
    Veteran Member Four Rings JimmyBones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZimbutheMonkey View Post
    36C/100F reduction (and possibly more) in intake temps and no one has yet to comment on this...?

    Hell, at the 1x10F rule, that's 10 CHP in just cooling alone, then add the 4-5 degrees worth of timing you can add as a result of the anti det properties.

    All said, W/M on these cars appears to be worth a consistent 15-20 CHP.... and that's not even addressing the extra benefits like the cleaning of the combustion chambers and the added safety that you get in case you DO get something like a lean condition on a cylinder.

    Hell, people regularly pay 3X more than what one of these systems are worth when they buy a catback exhaust which makes less gains.

    Finally, given how sensitive the RS4 is to timing pull and carbon build up, I would think that they would be all over this.

    Finally, after driving in the heat for more than a week, my impressions are this: You know when you start out in the morning and the car feels nice, torquey and sharp (until it warms up). Imagine having that feeling consistently, even in the summer heat.
    So before you go flying off the handle like usual, I would like to clarify a few things.

    1. It is not a 100F reduction.

    54C/129.2F - 18.8C/65.84F = 35.2C/63.36F net difference.

    I learned this lesson when I was first testing my Killer Chiller setup and playing with the conversion. Still an impressive result but just like my KC setup, it is after the intake air temperature sensor that is in the MAF housing (unless you modified that) so the computer doesn't see the result right away. The engine needs to see the other sensor readings before it can start to take advantage of the change and go "lets give it the beans." Thus a safe tune will still pull timing initially.

    2. Water/Meth will throw off the air/fuel calculation from the front O2s and you will not have a true air/fuel reading. You can get the calculation very close but you are still guessing and hoping for the best. This method can work but I am just personally not a fan with how good our ECUs are. Before I went with my KC unit I considered ordering the JHM nitrous system to use their plates for water injection but decided against it since it would be one more thing for me to keep track of. Might end up adding nitrous down the road though but all things in due time and I currently am happy with how much power that my engine makes on the stock internals.

    3. Effectively this is just recouping power that would have been there otherwise but isn't normally because of the ambient conditions. Definitely a nice benefit so that you can enjoy the car year round but sadly you are not making more power than in the winter with colder IATs.

    4. From the results that I have seen with W/M used on RS4s it didn't make any difference for carbon buildup. However if you would like to try it out then please let us know what you find. I would be very interested in having a true carbon solution. Currently I have some people testing out some ideas of mine on some local RS4s but it isn't worth sharing until I have over 20K miles of use to check on.

    Glad to see that you are enjoying your car during the summer since I am busy slaving away on other projects. My S4 is currently sitting and waiting for a few more tricks to try and get smooth consistent traction for a change.

  17. #17
    Veteran Member Four Rings q_dubz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyBones View Post
    So before you go flying off the handle like usual, I would like to clarify a few things.

    1. It is not a 100F reduction.

    54C/129.2F - 18.8C/65.84F = 35.2C/63.36F net difference.

    I learned this lesson when I was first testing my Killer Chiller setup and playing with the conversion. Still an impressive result but just like my KC setup, it is after the intake air temperature sensor that is in the MAF housing (unless you modified that) so the computer doesn't see the result right away. The engine needs to see the other sensor readings before it can start to take advantage of the change and go "lets give it the beans." Thus a safe tune will still pull timing initially.

    2. Water/Meth will throw off the air/fuel calculation from the front O2s and you will not have a true air/fuel reading. You can get the calculation very close but you are still guessing and hoping for the best. This method can work but I am just personally not a fan with how good our ECUs are. Before I went with my KC unit I considered ordering the JHM nitrous system to use their plates for water injection but decided against it since it would be one more thing for me to keep track of. Might end up adding nitrous down the road though but all things in due time and I currently am happy with how much power that my engine makes on the stock internals.

    3. Effectively this is just recouping power that would have been there otherwise but isn't normally because of the ambient conditions. Definitely a nice benefit so that you can enjoy the car year round but sadly you are not making more power than in the winter with colder IATs.

    4. From the results that I have seen with W/M used on RS4s it didn't make any difference for carbon buildup. However if you would like to try it out then please let us know what you find. I would be very interested in having a true carbon solution. Currently I have some people testing out some ideas of mine on some local RS4s but it isn't worth sharing until I have over 20K miles of use to check on.

    Glad to see that you are enjoying your car during the summer since I am busy slaving away on other projects. My S4 is currently sitting and waiting for a few more tricks to try and get smooth consistent traction for a change.
    Agreed on all.
    Couple questions:

    Have you considered running a 1.8t IAT and putting it in your boost pipe and just tapping the two MAF wires needed so the ECU sees it?

    Did the RS guys run direct port or just nozzles before the TB?

  18. #18
    Veteran Member Four Rings JimmyBones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by q_dubz View Post
    Agreed on all.
    Couple questions:

    Have you considered running a 1.8t IAT and putting it in your boost pipe and just tapping the two MAF wires needed so the ECU sees it?

    Did the RS guys run direct port or just nozzles before the TB?
    Yes and I decided that it wasn't worth the hassle. My normal 93 octane tune is meant to be restrictive since the stock block is limited by the rods. Plus it is kind of nice to have the limited power off the starting line to help with getting traction. It was pretty hilarious to hear how bad I was spinning the tires when I shifted to second gear at the dragstrip last time.

    Only remember nozzles before the TB. It might help to use direct port nozzles and there are people out there with good used intake manifolds to pick up.

  19. #19
    Veteran Member Three Rings SprintBlueWorld's Avatar
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    Interesting thread as always from Zimbu. We often have been reminded here how important oil temperature is to optimum viscosity. That being the case, is there or should there be any consideration for oil temperature with this set up? If so should there be a weight change in the oil to optimize it?



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