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  1. #161
    Senior Member Three Rings skree25's Avatar
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    1999 Audi B5 A4 Avant, 1996 Cherokee, 1989 Honda VTR 250
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    Difficult vacuum leak

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    Quote Originally Posted by CELison View Post
    The bar not going on is for sure concerning. That should pop on no prob. You said the chain is new. Where did you get it from? Maybe that chain has links ever so slightly a different length from the OEM chain. Shot in the dark, but it's possible. And yes, timing being off can effect comp numbers, as the cylinder isn't sealing like it should. It will also effect Vac, which is what you're experiencing that got you into this wormhole.
    Got the chains from FCP, Iwis is the mfr. I donít think itís chains though. The timing marks between the intake and exhaust cams are spot on with the notches in the bearing caps (see photos in earlier post). I think it has to be the hall sender or the impulse rotor on back of the intake cam. If the ecu is trying to compensate for a timing error that isnít actually there, would it be causing the engine to behave like it is?

    I agree step one would be to put the timing set back to cam bar and crank pin. Then I think Iíll inspect and swap the impulse rotors and hall senders and see if that changes anything.

    Iím getting an occasional code for random misfire which I think has got to be my timing being off now...


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  2. #162
    Senior Member Three Rings Bob Marley's Avatar
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    Can't think of scenario where the cam bar not going on is ok... no matter what MB 93 says

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  3. #163
    Veteran Member Four Rings CELison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Marley View Post
    Can't think of scenario where the cam bar not going on is ok... no matter what MB 93 says

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    Exactly. That means that the engine is mechanically out of time even though VCDS says it isn't. Before changing anything on the cams, put the engine back in time so the bar goes on and the belt is nice and tight. I don't think the ECU changing timing based off bad readings would cause low vac though. That's hardware related.
    B5 S4- K24s, built bottom end, E85
    B8 S4- GIAC Stage 2, E85/93

  4. #164
    Senior Member Three Rings Bob Marley's Avatar
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    Gotta get real ABC with this shit...

    Eveything is referenced from the Crank/Flywheel

    The first connection from the crank to the rest of youre engine is the timinng belt which links both Banks to the crank... ...if that shit ain't right... nothing else will be.

    ..start from Bottom to Top

    A) Crank @ TDC with Lock Pin

    B) CAM bar On

    C) Your Exhaust cams are now perfectly in time.

    This is now your foundation to make any other adjustments.

    otherwise anything else you do will compound the issues

    If all 4 TDC markings up top line up... leave it all alone. You have some other issue.

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  5. #165
    Senior Member Three Rings skree25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Marley View Post
    Gotta get real ABC with this shit...

    Eveything is referenced from the Crank/Flywheel

    The first connection from the crank to the rest of youre engine is the timinng belt which links both Banks to the crank... ...if that shit ain't right... nothing else will be.

    ..start from Bottom to Top

    A) Crank @ TDC with Lock Pin

    B) CAM bar On

    C) Your Exhaust cams are now perfectly in time.

    This is now your foundation to make any other adjustments.

    otherwise anything else you do will compound the issues

    If all 4 TDC markings up top line up... leave it all alone. You have some other issue.

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    Yes I need to find out why the ECU thinks itís out of time when it really is in time. -12 kw doesnít match what Iíve been able to visually verify via crank pin, cam bar, and visual inspection of the intake cam.

    I think my issue lies in whatever is causing that gap.


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  6. #166
    Senior Member Three Rings skree25's Avatar
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    1999 Audi B5 A4 Avant, 1996 Cherokee, 1989 Honda VTR 250
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    Difficult vacuum leak

    Quote Originally Posted by CELison View Post
    Exactly. That means that the engine is mechanically out of time even though VCDS says it isn't. Before changing anything on the cams, put the engine back in time so the bar goes on and the belt is nice and tight. I don't think the ECU changing timing based off bad readings would cause low vac though. That's hardware related.
    How confident are you that having engine in time but 093 off wouldnít cause my issues? If that is the case then that throws my whole hall sensor/impulse rotor theory out the window...


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  7. #167
    Veteran Member Four Rings CELison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skree25 View Post
    How confident are you that having engine in time but 093 off wouldnít cause my issues? If that is the case then that throws my whole hall sensor/impulse rotor theory out the window...


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    70%. I don't see how it would cause low vac. Unless it was misfiring like crazy. I'm not confident in anything with your car. Seems to defy the rules.
    B5 S4- K24s, built bottom end, E85
    B8 S4- GIAC Stage 2, E85/93

  8. #168
    Senior Member Three Rings Bob Marley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skree25 View Post
    Yes I need to find out why the ECU thinks itís out of time when it really is in time. -12 kw doesnít match what Iíve been able to visually verify via crank pin, cam bar, and visual inspection of the intake cam.

    I think my issue lies in whatever is causing that gap.


    Sent from my iPhone using Audizine
    Nevermind block 93 for now...

    If you're cam bar was able to go on before... ...and now it isn't going on at all...

    That's a major issue

    That should never change once set

    The bar should always be able to go on and off smoothly with a new timing job done... once it's off... Correction factors rise

    Youe ecu may be right all along... forcing you to address something physically out of wack
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    Last edited by Bob Marley; 07-12-2018 at 01:07 PM.

  9. #169
    Senior Member Three Rings skree25's Avatar
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    1999 Audi B5 A4 Avant, 1996 Cherokee, 1989 Honda VTR 250
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    Difficult vacuum leak

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Marley View Post
    Youe ecu may be right all along... forcing you to address something physically out of wack
    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    Ok hereís what the current plan. Swap hall senders. Check 093. Swap impulse rotors. Check 093. Reset timing via the traditional method. Check 093. Drive the car for 20-30 miles. Recheck 093. Do another compression test and leak down test. Redo heads if necessary. Otherwise Install new OEM chains. Check 093. Drive car another 20-30 miles. Recheck 093.

    Otherwise itís probably new cams. Then back to OEM flywheel




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    Last edited by skree25; 07-12-2018 at 06:30 PM.

  10. #170
    Established Member Three Rings Teck09's Avatar
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    Just my .02, and all of the above sound like good plans, but I would redo and verify that your compression results were truly skewed from the dieing battery before throwing any significant amount of money at it. You might be currently chasing something that isn't necessarily affecting the initial cause for concern, the low vac issue. You had mentioned earlier that your manual cam adjustment may have affected the comp #'s as well, they very well may have but I would retime first with the cam bar and pin then check comp #'s before going any further.

    I am unclear exactly how and why the ecu adjusts timing and/or what block 93 shows but is it possible the KW/correction factor could be off due to the ecu trying to correct for low compression on that bank?

  11. #171
    Senior Member Three Rings skree25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teck09 View Post
    Just my .02, and all of the above sound like good plans, but I would redo and verify that your compression results were truly skewed from the dieing battery before throwing any significant amount of money at it. You might be currently chasing something that isn't necessarily affecting the initial cause for concern, the low vac issue. You had mentioned earlier that your manual cam adjustment may have affected the comp #'s as well, they very well may have but I would retime first with the cam bar and pin then check comp #'s before going any further.

    I am unclear exactly how and why the ecu adjusts timing and/or what block 93 shows but is it possible the KW/correction factor could be off due to the ecu trying to correct for low compression on that bank?
    My understanding is that 093 simply measures the deviation between the crank and the intake camsí timing. The only way this can change is via the tensioner, and Iím able to show the tensioner adjustment at 0 when 093 is measured, so I believe it has to be something else.


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  12. #172
    Veteran Member Four Rings CELison's Avatar
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    The heads totally stock besides the cams? Ever been messed with? A valve not sealing all the way will cause those issues. It's unlikely, but possible.

    Edit: Doesn't explain the cam timing being off in VCDS. Mystery continues.
    B5 S4- K24s, built bottom end, E85
    B8 S4- GIAC Stage 2, E85/93

  13. #173
    Senior Member Three Rings skree25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CELison View Post
    The heads totally stock besides the cams? Ever been messed with? A valve not sealing all the way will cause those issues. It's unlikely, but possible.

    Edit: Doesn't explain the cam timing being off in VCDS. Mystery continues.
    Maybe just the universe telling me to upgrade to 2.8 heads and new valvetrain


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  14. #174
    Veteran Member Four Rings vavJETTAw36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skree25 View Post
    Maybe just the universe telling me to upgrade to 2.8 heads and new valvetrain


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    Did you ever drive it around after seeing -12 and 5?

  15. #175
    Senior Member Three Rings skree25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vavJETTAw36 View Post
    Did you ever drive it around after seeing -12 and 5?
    No. So thatís a possibility...that after I reset timing again and drive it that 093 will work itself back into spec like it did for that one guy in the other thread...


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  16. #176
    Senior Member Three Rings Bob Marley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skree25 View Post
    No. So thatís a possibility...that after I reset timing again and drive it that 093 will work itself back into spec like it did for that one guy in the other thread...


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    Needs time for Oil Pressure to build and tensioners to do they're thing... drive around and let the oil warm up... it flows better warm and will actuate the tensioners fully.... then see if theres a difference

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

  17. #177
    Senior Member Three Rings skree25's Avatar
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    1999 Audi B5 A4 Avant, 1996 Cherokee, 1989 Honda VTR 250
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    Difficult vacuum leak

    Well would you take a look at this...hereís my impulse rotors. Left is bank 1 right is bank 2

    Image1531831106.251180.jpg

    I think I found the cause of 093 being out of whack. The gap used for timing by the sensor is way smaller for bank 2 which was the bank out of spec

    So my guess is these must be different on 2.8 vs 2.7 cams then and I must have gotten one of each somehow.

    Hopefully I can find a spare to match bank 1 and throw it in...


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  18. #178
    Senior Member Three Rings Bob Marley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skree25 View Post
    Well would you take a look at this...hereís my impulse rotors. Left is bank 1 right is bank 2

    Image1531831106.251180.jpg

    I think I found the cause of 093 being out of whack. The gap used for timing by the sensor is way smaller for bank 2 which was the bank out of spec

    So my guess is these must be different on 2.8 vs 2.7 cams then and I must have gotten one of each somehow.

    Hopefully I can find a spare to match bank 1 and throw it in...


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    For christ sake bro...

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  19. #179
    Veteran Member Four Rings CELison's Avatar
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    Looks like heís finally slain the beast.

  20. #180
    Senior Member Three Rings skree25's Avatar
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    My Garage
    1999 Audi B5 A4 Avant, 1996 Cherokee, 1989 Honda VTR 250
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    Difficult vacuum leak

    Found a spare of the larger size to match bank 1 (stamped 234F). Threw it in. Also swapped hall sensor sides, but no change on 093

    Image1531833459.664372.jpg

    I havenít retimed the motor so this is still showing the manual adjustment out of time, so I was hoping to see 093 out of time as well...but no luck

    Just seems weird that the impulse rotor being a different size wouldnít affect the timing at all


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    Last edited by skree25; Today at 06:29 AM.

  21. #181
    Senior Member Three Rings Bob Marley's Avatar
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    Apparently they just need to match ...i'm thinking because the 2.8 cams I have Installed have the 2.8 Sensor.. not 2.7 and Block 93 Is fine.

    But all the manual adjustments you made would indeed keep you out of whack now

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    Last edited by Bob Marley; Today at 06:45 AM.

  22. #182
    Senior Member Three Rings skree25's Avatar
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    Difficult vacuum leak

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Marley View Post
    Apparently they just need to match ...i'm thinking because the 2.8 cams I have Installed have the 2.8 Impule Rotors... not 2.7 and Block 93 Is fine.

    But all the manual adjustments you made would indeed keep you out of whack now

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    Mine were mismatching, now they are matching, but 093 has shown the same in both scenarios.

    The hall sensors are interchangeable between the two right?

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  23. #183
    Senior Member Three Rings Bob Marley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skree25 View Post
    Mine were mismatching, now they are matching, but 093 has shown the same in both scenarios.

    The hall sensors are interchangeable between the two right?

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    It seems that way... since I dont recall swapping them... I installed my 2.8 cams as is... Hall sensors and all without issue

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  24. #184
    Veteran Member Four Rings CELison's Avatar
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    Still doesn't explain the low vac.
    Last edited by CELison; Today at 07:35 AM.

  25. #185
    Senior Member Three Rings skree25's Avatar
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    Difficult vacuum leak

    Quote Originally Posted by CELison View Post
    Still peanut explain the low vac.
    Nope youíre right, it doesnít. Next step is to retime the motor and redo compression test. If compression is low then Iíve got a head problem. Not sure what else it could be at this point.

    What sucks is I wonít be able to get in a garage again for 2 months. Buying a new home and just in between work spaces...


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