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  1. #121
    Senior Member Three Rings skree25's Avatar
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    Ya he’s gonna hop on tomorrow and take a look. MAF is 3.5”. But car runs pretty much the same with or without MAF plugged in


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  2. #122
    Senior Member Three Rings skree25's Avatar
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    Difficult vacuum leak

    Open to ideas of what else it might be though.

    Here’s the recap of the situation for anyone not interested in reading the whole thread.

    Rebuilt bottom end, rebuilt heads, 2.8 cams.

    Car is low on vacuum (only 10hg now) and runs rich and slow to boost. Idle is rough. No codes though.

    After verifying no boost or vacuum leaks, saw block 093 was showing bank 1 at +4 kw and bank 2 at -14 kw.

    Retimed the motor three times and no change. Cam lock bar, crank pin, visual inspection of cams. Correct number of rollers between cams on both banks. Changed in new cam tensioner and still no change. Ended up manually adjusting the cams a couple times until I got bank 1 at +2 kw and bank 2 at +1 on block 093. This means the intake cams are now timed according to the ECU, but the exhaust cams are now “out of time” since the cam lock bar can no longer be installed.

    Put the car back together and no change in vacuum, still rough idle.

    I’ve done a leakdown test that showed all cylinders ~3%. I plan on doing a compression test tomorrow just in case.

    Tuner has scaled the MAF and adjusted for 3bar map.

    Does anyone have an idea or two on what else might be going in here? I could really use some help figuring this out...


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  3. #123
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Didn't read the whole thread and never post here but here is what I would do...
    get another gauge and verify your vacuum reading at the engine- maybe back of the intake manifold on one of the small nipples?
    Time the engine so the cam bar fits back into the cam gears without issues. Remove valve covers. Is there a way you can maybe measure the distance between a intake cam lobe and a exhaust cam lobe and compare b1 to b2? This would tell us if you have a chain stretch issue right? Just a couple of things that may help.

  4. #124
    Veteran Member Four Rings vavJETTAw36's Avatar
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    I personally would focus on other things before touching timing again ^.

    Can you post your MB32? Can you verify your MAF readings?

    You did a boost leak test and smoke tested the vacuum system?

    Can you tell us if your pcv system is stock or have you done any modifications?

    Can you “crimp off” all the lines running off of you intake manifold to see if there’s a change?


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  5. #125
    Established Member Two Rings
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    All good things to check^
    Can we agree that there is a timing issue that should/needs to be resolved?

  6. #126
    Senior Member Three Rings archimense's Avatar
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    Could it be a failing camshaft position sensor?
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  7. #127
    Established Member Three Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTAnimal View Post
    All good things to check^
    Can we agree that there is a timing issue that should/needs to be resolved?
    Read page 2 and 3 of this thread. You dont need to read it all but he has basically done everything under the sun as far as timing is related.

    Skree, this is a very informative thread. I'm sure it will help alot of people.

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  8. #128
    Established Member Two Rings dalazybastard's Avatar
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    Just read through all this and I am amazed at what our community has to offer in knowledge.

    As for help, this is a weird one.

    I remember reading somewhere that 2.8 intake cams were not degreed the same as 2.7 cams (just a tad off), and needed to be part of the tune.

    Also could there be any leaks at the intake manifold gasket or such?

    Did you touch the bottom part of the intake manifold?

    Anyways best of luck and I look forward to seeing your solution to this.



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  9. #129
    Veteran Member Four Rings CELison's Avatar
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    ^ I have 2.8 cams, didn’t do anything special during install. Timing is spot on, vac is normal. It’s not the cams.

  10. #130
    Senior Member Three Rings Bob Marley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CELison View Post
    ^ I have 2.8 cams, didn’t do anything special during install. Timing is spot on, vac is normal. It’s not the cams.
    Same here... 2.8 Cams. CFs +1 & -1 All day long Vac -18

    My first cam install too, so if there were mistakes to be made, I would've made them...lol

    No way its you're cams

    Although I do recall the cams are not ambidextrous... Bank1 cam is specific to bank 1 on so on... so i'm hoping attention was given to that on install

    I am also 'Tuned' for 2.8 Cams as well

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    Last edited by Bob Marley; 07-12-2018 at 07:22 AM.

  11. #131
    Veteran Member Three Rings okkim's Avatar
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    I have seen many times people talking “correction factors” when timing cams. I just want to clarify that they are not CF’s, KW means crankshaft degrees in German.

    http://www.gerritspeek.nl/vag-com_01-08_benzine.html

    “ °KW = Grad Kurbelwelle stand van de krukas in graden“

  12. #132
    Veteran Member Four Rings vavJETTAw36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okkim View Post
    I have seen many times people talking “correction factors” when timing cams. I just want to clarify that they are not CF’s, KW means crankshaft degrees in German.

    http://www.gerritspeek.nl/vag-com_01-08_benzine.html

    “ °KW = Grad Kurbelwelle stand van de krukas in graden“
    Yes yes, we know that the label in vcDS is KW and even in the tables in the software. However, anecdotes from Skree and others who have done the manual adjustment noted that the amount needed to fix phase position was much less than a crankshaft degree and much less than a camshaft degree. So it is theorized that the ecu does something with the number before displaying it and perhaps mislabeled as KW.




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  13. #133
    Senior Member Three Rings Bob Marley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okkim View Post
    I have seen many times people talking “correction factors” when timing cams. I just want to clarify that they are not CF’s, KW means crankshaft degrees in German.

    http://www.gerritspeek.nl/vag-com_01-08_benzine.html

    “ °KW = Grad Kurbelwelle stand van de krukas in graden“
    Hmmm....so you're saying the C.F. here on Block 93 does not stand for Correction Factor?

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  14. #134
    Veteran Member Three Rings okkim's Avatar
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    Yes, that is what I am saying. Look the web page link too.
    67AC2C12-488F-474F-836F-836BFE4883FF.jpeg

  15. #135
    Veteran Member Four Rings vavJETTAw36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okkim View Post
    Yes, that is what I am saying. Look the web page link too.
    67AC2C12-488F-474F-836F-836BFE4883FF.jpeg
    Yea, that screen shot is not using a label file supplied by VCDS. You do realize that each car has its own labels, right?

  16. #136
    Senior Member Three Rings Bob Marley's Avatar
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    This was an actual photo taken this a.m. from my Laptop... ...not a web screen shot. So ...I'm thinking different VCDS setups represent the same Value expressed in different terms... I do believe we're all talking the same language so to speak...dont believe anyone here is confused by Block 93. Noone is manually adjusting cams in Literal Degrees. Just trying to get MB 93 Banks 1 & 2 to match each other & as close to 0 as possible.

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  17. #137
    Veteran Member Four Rings vavJETTAw36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Marley View Post
    This was an actual photo taken this a.m. from my Laptop... ...not a web screen shot. So ...I'm thinking different VCDS setups represent the same Value expressed in different terms... I do believe we're all talking the same language so to speak...dont believe anyone here is confused by Block 93. Noone is manually adjusting cams in Literal Degrees. Just trying to get MB 93 Banks 1 & 2 to match each other & as close to 0 as possible.

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    lol exacty. Call it whatever you want. You can call it Guten Tags if you want. Or maybe something a bit more Finnish. Just let us know so we can all get on the same terminology.

  18. #138
    Senior Member Three Rings skree25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vavJETTAw36 View Post
    I personally would focus on other things before touching timing again ^.

    Can you post your MB32? Can you verify your MAF readings?

    You did a boost leak test and smoke tested the vacuum system?

    Can you tell us if your pcv system is stock or have you done any modifications?

    Can you “crimp off” all the lines running off of you intake manifold to see if there’s a change?


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    Here’s mb032

    Image1531410416.045225.jpg

    Zeros at idle. I know fueling is off. Blake and I have been working through it but we’re convinced there’s something else that needs to be fixed first.

    Done multiple boost leak and smoke tests. No leaks in IM or boost components.

    Deleted the pcv system. Plugged up all the ports and just have an oil catch can.

    Have tested IM vac line by line, port by port, no change.

    Did a compression test this morning. I’m hesitant about the figures though. Had the hardest time getting the hose to screw in more than a thread. Also I did bank 1 last so might be seeing a tired battery.

    C1: 115
    C2: 120
    C3: 100
    C4: 130
    C5: 125
    C6: 140

    Like I said, the leakdown test showed very good. I might try to hook up that hose and do the compression test to see if that helps.



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  19. #139
    Veteran Member Four Rings CELison's Avatar
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    Those comp test numbers are a little concerning if they’re acurrate.

  20. #140
    Senior Member Three Rings skree25's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Marley View Post
    This was an actual photo taken this a.m. from my Laptop... ...not a web screen shot. So ...I'm thinking different VCDS setups represent the same Value expressed in different terms... I do believe we're all talking the same language so to speak...dont believe anyone here is confused by Block 93. Noone is manually adjusting cams in Literal Degrees. Just trying to get MB 93 Banks 1 & 2 to match each other & as close to 0 as possible.

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    After making manual adjustments to get 093 correct, the car is definitely running worse. Using the cam bar and crank pin, the cams were aligned to the notches. For some reason though the ecu was seeing the intake cam as being off, despite new chain and cct.

    I believe I was in time before the manual adjustment and now I’m a little out of time. However the vacuum problem I don’t think is related and is being caused by something else.


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  21. #141
    Senior Member Three Rings Bob Marley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skree25 View Post
    After making manual adjustments to get 093 correct, the car is definitely running worse. Using the cam bar and crank pin, the cams were aligned to the notches. For some reason though the ecu was seeing the intake cam as being off, despite new chain and cct.

    I believe I was in time before the manual adjustment and now I’m a little out of time. However the vacuum problem I don’t think is related and is being caused by something else.


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    Yeah... the Crank lock Pin , CAM bar and TDC Mark's are the standard...deviating from that seems to only compound the problem. Physical timing positions & electronic timing monitoring are supposed to be in harmony.

    Put things back the way they were based on the standard tools...

    Confirm that you're cams are in they're appropriate Banks. If you're cams were not labeled before install...there's only a 50/50 chance you got it right the first time...

    I remember reading that they are prioritized to each bank, therefore each cam has different part numbers from Audi... & not the same.

    At this point what do you have to loose?

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  22. #142
    Senior Member Three Rings skree25's Avatar
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    Can anyone confirm the numbers/markings on the cams so I can verify?

    I took note of them earlier in the thread but haven’t had anyone chime in.


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  23. #143
    Senior Member Three Rings Bob Marley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skree25 View Post
    Can anyone confirm the numbers/markings on the cams so I can verify?

    I took note of them earlier in the thread but haven’t had anyone chime in.


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    ...i'm sorry bro... but there are NO physical part numbers Marked on the camshafts themselves...so you would have no way of knowing which is which unless they came from you're supplier preLabeled as they were removed from the Donor 2.8.

    I just know Audi parts list them as 2 different part numbers, indicating to me that they are not the same.

    Thus the 50/50 chance you got it right



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  24. #144
    Veteran Member Four Rings vavJETTAw36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skree25 View Post
    Can anyone confirm the numbers/markings on the cams so I can verify?

    I took note of them earlier in the thread but haven’t had anyone chime in.


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    When you put bank 2 cams back in, did the cams drop right in and relax? You shouldn’t have had to do much work at all to get the markings in time.


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  25. #145
    Veteran Member Four Rings vavJETTAw36's Avatar
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    Now I am wondering if you received two bank 1 intake cams.... Let me check the numbers on the spares that I have.

  26. #146
    Senior Member Three Rings Bob Marley's Avatar
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    Not the Same

    Worth investigating ...in my opinion

    Trust me Camshafts are not individually marked... only a production code is stamped on each one
    Not Part Numbers





  27. #147
    Veteran Member Four Rings CELison's Avatar
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    Bank one and two intake cam lobe angles are wayyy different in relation to the timing mark.

  28. #148
    Senior Member Three Rings Bob Marley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CELison View Post
    Bank one and two intake cam lobe angles are wayyy different in relation to the timing mark.
    Lol... ...i'm hoping we found the issue...

    Starting to loose sleep

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  29. #149
    Senior Member Three Rings skree25's Avatar
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    Here is what I said about the cam markings:

    “Did I accidentally swap in a bank 2 cam into bank 1? Bank 1 Exhaust cam has 0782 printed on it with AD etched in. Intake cam has 0781 printed on with AK etched in. Bank 2 intake also has 0781 but AJ etched in and exhaust cam has 0784 printed on it with just an E etched in. Anyone have a reference on how to identify the cams?”

    The cams would have to only be very slightly off to be showing only -12 kw on 093 when the rest of the motor is in perfect time. Basically half a cam tooth.


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  30. #150
    Veteran Member Four Rings vavJETTAw36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skree25 View Post
    Here is what I said about the cam markings:

    “Did I accidentally swap in a bank 2 cam into bank 1? Bank 1 Exhaust cam has 0782 printed on it with AD etched in. Intake cam has 0781 printed on with AK etched in. Bank 2 intake also has 0781 but AJ etched in and exhaust cam has 0784 printed on it with just an E etched in. Anyone have a reference on how to identify the cams?”

    The cams would have to only be very slightly off to be showing only -12 kw on 093 when the rest of the motor is in perfect time. Basically half a cam tooth.


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    False alarm.

    I can tell by the pics and comparing them to my spares that it is correct.

    My stamps are as followed:

    B2
    Intake 0781 AJ

    B1
    Intake 0781 AK


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  31. #151
    Veteran Member Four Rings CELison's Avatar
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    The cams are right. I remember putting mine in and bank one and bank two aren’t even close if you take the timing mark as your starting point. You would have some smashed valves if you installed them on the wrong bank.

  32. #152
    Veteran Member Four Rings vavJETTAw36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CELison View Post
    The cams are right. I remember putting mine in and bank one and bank two aren’t even close if you take the timing mark as your starting point. You would have some smashed valves if you installed them on the wrong bank.
    Yep cylinder 5 valves and piston would be fucked.


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  33. #153
    Senior Member Three Rings Bob Marley's Avatar
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    Jeez... thought we had something here

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  34. #154
    Senior Member Three Rings skree25's Avatar
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    Difficult vacuum leak

    Quote Originally Posted by vavJETTAw36 View Post
    False alarm.

    I can tell by the pics and comparing them to my spares that it is correct.

    My stamps are as followed:

    B2
    Intake 0781 AJ

    B1
    Intake 0781 AK


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    Thanks for clearing that up. Do you have the means to also verify the exhaust cams?

    You’d think if both the intake share the same 4 digits the exhaust cams would too...

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  35. #155
    Veteran Member Four Rings vavJETTAw36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skree25 View Post
    Thanks for clearing that up. Do you have the means to also verify the exhaust cams?

    You’d think if both the intake share the same 4 digits the exhaust cams would too...

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    not at the time, but those arent interchangable anyways. Remember, the front sticks out for the sprocket to bolt to and the cog is positioned where the cam chain tensioner would go, which is FRONT for bank 2and BACK for bank 1

  36. #156
    Veteran Member Four Rings CELison's Avatar
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    Alright so lets recap since this is going fast. You now have the timing CFs in spec, but still low vac, building boost slow, and generally running like shit? Maybe you have a valve(s) that isn't closing all the way. You're positive these are 2.8 30V cams right? 100%?
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  37. #157
    Veteran Member Four Rings vavJETTAw36's Avatar
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    For the sake of putting cams to rest,

    B1
    0782
    DEW6

    B2
    0784
    DEW7

  38. #158
    Veteran Member Four Rings vavJETTAw36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CELison View Post
    Alright so lets recap since this is going fast. You now have the timing CFs in spec, but still low vac, building boost slow, and generally running like shit? Maybe you have a valve(s) that isn't closing all the way. You're positive these are 2.8 30V cams right? 100%?
    Our cam stamps match, and those are cams out of AHA heads


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  39. #159
    Senior Member Three Rings skree25's Avatar
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    Difficult vacuum leak

    Quote Originally Posted by CELison View Post
    Alright so lets recap since this is going fast. You now have the timing CFs in spec, but still low vac, building boost slow, and generally running like shit? Maybe you have a valve(s) that isn't closing all the way. You're positive these are 2.8 30V cams right? 100%?
    Timing of the intake cams are in spec...but I’m pretty sure exhaust cam timing is out is spec since cam bar will not go on after manually adjusting intake cams.

    I think this means there still must be a timing problem since there is a delta between what the ECU is reading for timing (intake cams) and what is mechanically read for timing (exhaust cams)

    That would suggest the issue lies between the exhaust cam and the the reading the ecu is receiving. So chain, tensioner, or hall sender. But chain is new and tensioner was just replaced. Timing marks line up almost dead on with the current chains and tensioners installed but obviously I can’t physically verify they are staying in time while engine is running.

    That would lead me to believe a hall sensor may be bad or the little timing piece that’s bolted to the back of the cam. The sensor was picking up the very minor manual adjustments I was making so perhaps no the sensor itself but the that little timing piece on the back of the cam is to blame.

    Are those timing pieces interchangeable? I definitely could have accidentally swapped those during the build.

    If the engine was actually in perfect time, but the ECU thought it was not in time (like in my case) would that still cause the car to run poorly? ie will the ecu be compensating for false timing error causing a true timing error?

    I don’t trust that compression test I did. I’ll do a leak down test later to verify valves are good. It’s also possible the engine timing error I’ve clearly got could be throwing off those compression test figures too right?


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  40. #160
    Veteran Member Four Rings CELison's Avatar
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    The bar not going on is for sure concerning. That should pop on no prob. You said the chain is new. Where did you get it from? Maybe that chain has links ever so slightly a different length from the OEM chain. Shot in the dark, but it's possible. And yes, timing being off can effect comp numbers, as the cylinder isn't sealing like it should. It will also effect Vac, which is what you're experiencing that got you into this wormhole.
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