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  1. #1
    Senior Member Three Rings FuzzyHat's Avatar
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    Parts Needed to run E85

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    Total noob question. Iím fairly new to the whole modification of cars, and wanted to ask what would be needed to be able to run a full E85 tune on this platform?

    Thank you in advance!


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  2. #2
    Veteran Member Four Rings 2380S4's Avatar
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    I believe with this platform you would need to replace the fuel pump and injectors with higher pressure ones. The stock fuel system has been able to handle up to E70 levels, but not above that.
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  3. #3
    Veteran Member Four Rings jl87's Avatar
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    Probably something similar to the S3 when adding port injectors, which is a LPFP and bigger port injectors.
    APR kit for reference purposes https://www.goapr.com/products/fueling_ea888_gen3.html

  4. #4
    Stage 2 Banner Advertiser Four Rings Arin@APR's Avatar
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    The forthcoming APR Tune will only require the tune.
    GoAPR.com | Facebook | YouTube | Twitter | Instagram
    Phone: (800) 680-7921 Local Phone: +1 (334) 502-5181 Fax: +1 (334) 502-5180
    Address: APR LLC, 4800 US HWY 280 West, Opelika, AL 36801

  5. #5
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
    The forthcoming APR Tune will only require the tune.
    Yes!!!

    To clarify further, Arin, itís only when you step up to stage 2 and try to run E85 that you start running into the limits of the stock fuel system. Am I correct on that?
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  6. #6
    Stage 2 Banner Advertiser Four Rings Arin@APR's Avatar
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    You will be good up to 85% ethanol on stage 1 and 2. When we drop in a larger turbo, we upgrade the injectors and low pressure fuel pump.
    GoAPR.com | Facebook | YouTube | Twitter | Instagram
    Phone: (800) 680-7921 Local Phone: +1 (334) 502-5181 Fax: +1 (334) 502-5180
    Address: APR LLC, 4800 US HWY 280 West, Opelika, AL 36801

  7. #7
    Established Member Four Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
    You will be good up to 85% ethanol on stage 1 and 2. When we drop in a larger turbo, we upgrade the injectors and low pressure fuel pump.
    All ten injectors?

  8. #8
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
    You will be good up to 85% ethanol on stage 1 and 2. When we drop in a larger turbo, we upgrade the injectors and low pressure fuel pump.
    Is a true flex fuel setup something that's on your road map?

    Will the option you speak of above be suitable for e50-e85? We only get e54 here.

  9. #9
    Stage 2 Banner Advertiser Four Rings Arin@APR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potatohead_RS3 View Post
    All ten injectors?
    We only need to upgrade the 5 inexpensive and easy-to-access injectors. :)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Spec c View Post
    Is a true flex fuel setup something that's on your road map?

    Will the option you speak of above be suitable for e50-e85? We only get e54 here.
    It's not flex, but it's designed for Summer / Winter blends of E85, so E60 to E85.
    GoAPR.com | Facebook | YouTube | Twitter | Instagram
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  10. #10
    Established Member Four Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
    We only need to upgrade the 5 inexpensive and easy-to-access injectors. :)
    LOL that's what I was hoping to hear

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
    We only need to upgrade the 5 inexpensive and easy-to-access injectors. :)

    - - - Updated - - -



    It's not flex, but it's designed for Summer / Winter blends of E85, so E60 to E85.
    Thanks. I s flex fuel something you'll be working towards in the future?

    I've heard the oem ecu has provisions for it.

  12. #12
    Stage 2 Banner Advertiser Four Rings Arin@APR's Avatar
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    Given our pervious delays, I don't want to promise anything at this point.
    GoAPR.com | Facebook | YouTube | Twitter | Instagram
    Phone: (800) 680-7921 Local Phone: +1 (334) 502-5181 Fax: +1 (334) 502-5180
    Address: APR LLC, 4800 US HWY 280 West, Opelika, AL 36801

  13. #13
    Veteran Member Four Rings sciblades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spec c View Post
    Thanks. I s flex fuel something you'll be working towards in the future?

    I've heard the oem ecu has provisions for it.
    Where did you hear the ECU has ethanol mapping?

    I think your source is mistaken

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  14. #14
    Active Member Two Rings nicholasdaa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sciblades View Post
    Where did you hear the ECU has ethanol mapping?

    I think your source is mistaken

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    Someone posted their stock dyno results with 91 and with 91+E85 for an E20-30 mixture and picked up ~20 WHP/WTQ. I fill up with a little E85 occasionally and feel a large difference as well, brings it closer to 93 octane which many don't have access to.

    I would assume the car can pull and add timing based on fuel quality/octane/knock resistance.

    I think he might have made an assumption from that post.
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  15. #15
    Active Member One Ring mioh0609's Avatar
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    i've heard the same thing as well. And even from different cars as well(15+ wrx's). essentially putting 2-3 gallons of e85 turns 91 into 93 fuel. Most 91 fuel has 10% ethanol in it anyways

  16. #16
    Veteran Member Four Rings saxon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicholasdaa View Post
    Someone posted their stock dyno results with 91 and with 91+E85 for an E20-30 mixture and picked up ~20 WHP/WTQ. I fill up with a little E85 occasionally and feel a large difference as well, brings it closer to 93 octane which many don't have access to.

    I would assume the car can pull and add timing based on fuel quality/octane/knock resistance.

    I think he might have made an assumption from that post.
    Quote Originally Posted by mioh0609 View Post
    i've heard the same thing as well. And even from different cars as well(15+ wrx's). essentially putting 2-3 gallons of e85 turns 91 into 93 fuel. Most 91 fuel has 10% ethanol in it anyways
    That certainly isn't ethanol mapping or anywhere close

    That's the ecu having enough adaptation to add more fuel(ethanol requires this) and then not detonate or take away timing based upon knock values

    Ethanol mapping uses an ethanol sensor to make changes based on a range which then correlates that reading to the correct mapping based upon timing, fueling and tq management etc
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  17. #17
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by sciblades View Post
    Where did you hear the ECU has ethanol mapping?

    I think your source is mistaken

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
    Did I say it had built in "ethanol mapping"? I said "provisions" which is a pretty loose term, and the exact term used by said tuner, which is why I chose my words wisely.

    The general context of the conversation was that it wasn't going to be a huge deal to get working and is something on their agenda. Now I don't really know what those provisions are, but given this person's reputation I'd trust they know what they're talking about.

    I didn't feel the need to pry further. At this point its just a waiting game. Just about every modern day tuner car has aftermarket flex fuel support. It's only a matter of time.

  18. #18
    Veteran Member Four Rings 2380S4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
    The forthcoming APR Tune will only require the tune.
    I stand corrected as of now. Interesting to see a tune be able to adjust the pressure levels in the fuel system.

    But of course I know very little about these things.
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  19. #19
    Established Member Two Rings seanix9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arin@APR View Post
    You will be good up to 85% ethanol on stage 1 and 2. When we drop in a larger turbo, we upgrade the injectors and low pressure fuel pump.
    Music to my ears. Thanks APR


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  20. #20
    Veteran Member Four Rings sciblades's Avatar
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    I wonder if anyone who bought the APR tune has run their e85 file at a circuit track.

    I would love to hear your experience as far as how it went.

    I would love to see fuel logs on a track setting to see how safe it is a 1/4 mile pass at WOT is very different then a full lapping session.

    Same goes for anyone who has run e85 in their car without an upgraded lpfp or injectors.

    Love to hear anyone's experiences.

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  21. #21
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    I was a little surprised to see that APR's tune does not need any fuel upgrades to support E85. Granted, all cars are different, but when I had a 135, E85 was impossible without an upgraded LPFP. I am going to do dyno runs next week on stock vs 91, and then migrate to E85 within a couple of weeks after that to see what it looks like. I don't plan to push the E85 tune until I can see, at a minimum, what the A/F looks like.

    I would find it odd that a company like APR would advertise you don't need any upgrades on that tune when you do, but I'd rather be safe than sorry. Besides, I swear somewhere on here I saw people tuning with CC said the stock system was having issues past E70, but that might have been when they were pushing a larger turbo setup, like APR says.



    Quote Originally Posted by sciblades View Post
    I wonder if anyone who bought the APR tune has run their e85 file at a circuit track.

    I would love to hear your experience as far as how it went.

    I would love to see fuel logs on a track setting to see how safe it is a 1/4 mile pass at WOT is very different then a full lapping session.

    Same goes for anyone who has run e85 in their car without an upgraded lpfp or injectors.

    Love to hear anyone's experiences.

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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by KelTan View Post
    I was a little surprised to see that APR's tune does not need any fuel upgrades to support E85. Granted, all cars are different, but when I had a 135, E85 was impossible without an upgraded LPFP. I am going to do dyno runs next week on stock vs 91, and then migrate to E85 within a couple of weeks after that to see what it looks like. I don't plan to push the E85 tune until I can see, at a minimum, what the A/F looks like.

    I would find it odd that a company like APR would advertise you don't need any upgrades on that tune when you do, but I'd rather be safe than sorry. Besides, I swear somewhere on here I saw people tuning with CC said the stock system was having issues past E70, but that might have been when they were pushing a larger turbo setup, like APR says.
    Thatís Georgeís car. Heís running a hybrid turbo setup.
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  23. #23
    Veteran Member Four Rings saxon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceman302 View Post
    Thatís Georgeís car. Heís running a hybrid turbo setup.
    No, he's talking about Jason's car.

    Fyi he ran e66 when he trapped 134

    Answer this question.. why would a CC e70 tune make more power than an e85 tune on this platform ?
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by saxon View Post
    No, he's talking about Jason's car.

    Fyi he ran e66 when he trapped 134

    Answer this question.. why would a CC e70 tune make more power than an e85 tune on this platform ?
    George was capped to running E70 before the fueling upgrades too.
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  25. #25
    Veteran Member Four Rings saxon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceman302 View Post
    George was capped to running E70 before the fueling upgrades too.
    Wait until people start actually logging these ethanol cars. Shits gonna hit the fan
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  26. #26
    Senior Member Three Rings Bezlar's Avatar
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    Whatís the easiest or best way to get ethanol gauge working on this car.


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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by saxon View Post
    Wait until people start actually logging these ethanol cars. Shits gonna hit the fan
    What are your expectations? Inadequate fueling on stock pump and injectors?
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by KelTan View Post
    I was a little surprised to see that APR's tune does not need any fuel upgrades to support E85. Granted, all cars are different, but when I had a 135, E85 was impossible without an upgraded LPFP.
    I think it's as simple as Audi (over)built enough 'room' in this fueling system such that it can still meet demand on E85/tune (which probably requires up to double the amount of fuel sprayed in the cylinder than the typical stock boost and far less oxygenated regular gasoline).

  29. #29
    Veteran Member Four Rings sciblades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cam0719 View Post
    I think it's as simple as Audi (over)built enough 'room' in this fueling system such that it can still meet demand on E85/tune (which probably requires up to double the amount of fuel sprayed in the cylinder than the typical stock boost and far less oxygenated regular gasoline).
    I mean I think us taking guesses without anyone posting logs is just pointless.

    Logs will show how if CC or APR is correct with their implementation of E-85 it is really up to the end user to decide which is safer and what they want to run on their car.

    I would love to hear each companies stance on tracking the car with ethanol and their data to back up why it is or isnt safe.

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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by saxon View Post

    Answer this question.. why would a CC e70 tune make more power than an e85 tune on this platform ?

    Quote Originally Posted by saxon View Post
    Wait until people start actually logging these ethanol cars. Shits gonna hit the fan
    Are you trying to be vague with knowledge something is off, or are you speculating there will be issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by sciblades View Post
    I would love to hear each companies stance on tracking the car with ethanol and their data to back up why it is or isnt safe.
    I agree. I would love to see the data backing it up, either way.

  31. #31
    Veteran Member Three Rings Burningcoals's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saxon View Post
    Wait until people start actually logging these ethanol cars. Shits gonna hit the fan
    A few people logged APR e85 file on the dyno and said the logs looked fine. Although I am going to run the e85 file this next week. I can get some logs off it.

    I believe the APR e85 tune is essentially a e60 tune so it will work with all the different blends and even winter blend.

    From what I hear, the stock car is fine running full e85 until you do a turbo upgrade which requires more fuel. But you never know what acceptable is. Saw a R8 REVO production tune pulling max timing. So some tuners push it.
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  32. #32
    Veteran Member Four Rings saxon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burningcoals View Post
    A few people logged APR e85 file on the dyno and said the logs looked fine. Although I am going to run the e85 file this next week. I can get some logs off it.

    I believe the APR e85 tune is essentially a e60 tune so it will work with all the different blends and even winter blend.

    From what I hear, the stock car is fine running full e85 until you do a turbo upgrade which requires more fuel. But you never know what acceptable is. Saw a R8 REVO production tune pulling max timing. So some tuners push it.
    Ever wonder why CC runs e70 stage 2 but magically apr is saying they won't need to?

    Stock hardware I've seen good e85 logs as well, I agree with your assessment of apr's stage 1 e85 tune

    The more people log the faster this chassis will evolve (as if it's not crazy fast)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burningcoals View Post
    A few people logged APR e85 file on the dyno and said the logs looked fine. Although I am going to run the e85 file this next week. I can get some logs off it.
    Good to hear. What are you logging with?

  34. #34
    Senior Member Three Rings DarkSideGTI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicholasdaa View Post
    Someone posted their stock dyno results with 91 and with 91+E85 for an E20-30 mixture and picked up ~20 WHP/WTQ. I fill up with a little E85 occasionally and feel a large difference as well, brings it closer to 93 octane which many don't have access to.

    I would assume the car can pull and add timing based on fuel quality/octane/knock resistance.

    I think he might have made an assumption from that post.
    That just means his car was pulling timing on 91, he threw the E85 in and no more timing pull, or not as much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyHat View Post
    Total noob question. Iím fairly new to the whole modification of cars, and wanted to ask what would be needed to be able to run a full E85 tune on this platform?

    Thank you in advance!


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    This is dependent on how far you want to push the tune. The simple answer is you don't have to do anything to run E85, the more relevant question is how much HP will the stock fuel system support on E85...safely
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteJ View Post
    This is dependent on how far you want to push the tune. The simple answer is you don't have to do anything to run E85, the more relevant question is how much HP will the stock fuel system support on E85...safely
    Safely in cold weather not this summer heat....
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  37. #37
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    I don't know if this makes much sense, but I know some people have said their local E85 pumps don't use pure E85. Are people who are getting to E70ish mixing with standard gas, and is that worse than a non "pure" E85 fuel (that is just not full E85 from the pump)? I am trying to understand if the percentage drop is worse under an "E85" tune, with a minimum ethanol percentage requirement, when it comes from mixing gasoline, or is the blend at the pump already mixed with some octane level and a higher ethanol concentration.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by KelTan View Post
    I don't know if this makes much sense, but I know some people have said their local E85 pumps don't use pure E85. Are people who are getting to E70ish mixing with standard gas, and is that worse than a non "pure" E85 fuel (that is just not full E85 from the pump)? I am trying to understand if the percentage drop is worse under an "E85" tune, with a minimum ethanol percentage requirement, when it comes from mixing gasoline, or is the blend at the pump already mixed with some octane level and a higher ethanol concentration.
    It can get complicated mixing, you need to test the eth content know the numbers and do the math when trying to make say E70. Which is why APR made it easy for everyone, they tuned for e60, so really my e85 pump tests over 80%, so I know I am safe, I just fill it up and forget about it. Of course winter blend I will test, and its always a good idea to fill up a 5G container and test frequently. I also hear its a good idea to run a tank of 92/93 in between e85. I do not plan on running e85 full time.

    I think the best way to do it is run near empty, fill the car with a few gallons of e85, enough to make it to the pump, then fill all the way, by the time your all done you will be almost near ready to run the e85 map.
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    Apr 11 2018
    AZ Member #
    416958
    Location
    Northern CA

    Quote Originally Posted by Burningcoals View Post
    It can get complicated mixing, you need to test the eth content know the numbers and do the math when trying to make say E70. Which is why APR made it easy for everyone, they tuned for e60, so really my e85 pump tests over 80%, so I know I am safe, I just fill it up and forget about it. Of course winter blend I will test, and its always a good idea to fill up a 5G container and test frequently. I also hear its a good idea to run a tank of 92/93 in between e85. I do not plan on running e85 full time.

    I think the best way to do it is run near empty, fill the car with a few gallons of e85, enough to make it to the pump, then fill all the way, by the time your all done you will be almost near ready to run the e85 map.
    Thanks for the advice. As far as the percentage at the pump you're using, are you testing it, or is that what the vendor says?

  40. #40
    Veteran Member Three Rings Burningcoals's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 16 2004
    AZ Member #
    2153
    Location
    Washington

    Quote Originally Posted by KelTan View Post
    Thanks for the advice. As far as the percentage at the pump you're using, are you testing it, or is that what the vendor says?
    Yes, I am testing it using any number of testers that can be purchased online.
    • Current: 2018 Audi RS3 - 2000 Audi S4 3L
    • B5 S4 FATS TiAL R770 2.06 FATS VIDEO
    • B5 S4 Pump GAS 5.7 60-130 92oct + Meth
    • B5 S4 4.7 100-200kmh 92oct + Meth

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