An emotional end to an era (2004 S4 needs timing chain service)

[earthtodan]

My 136,000 mile S4 needs a timing chain service - for the second time - and this time I can't justify spending $10k+ (not accounting for unknowns) to have the engine pulled just to get another couple years out of it. It also burns a quart of oil about every 600-700 miles and nobody can figure out why.

I don't consider myself a sentimental person when it comes to cars, but over the past 7 years of ownership I've really become attached to this one. There's a sort of bygone class to the design that is being forgotten about in the era of touch screens, non-circular steering wheels full of buttons, motorized trunk lids, etc. I'll be scoping out my options while I make my final decision on whether to shell out and keep it running for a few more years. I'm thinking Allroad, A4, WRX, or any other manual/DSG AWD sports sedan or hatchback driver's car that's comfortable to drive long distances and is not ugly (it's a lot to ask, I know, hence why I've clung to mine).

If anyone is interested in a spare S4 manual, let me know. I haven't thought about the price yet.

[VinnysS4]

Have you considered taking on the job yourself for like 2 or 3k?

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[earthtodan]

In an alternate universe I'm doing it myself, but in this one I don't have the space, the time or the expertise.

[Mr. Corey]

B6's are becoming a rare car these days. Hoping you keep her alive for a bit longer!!!!!!...... but RS4 values have tanked recently so maybe that's a nice replacement.

[earthtodan]

It could happen. 034 Motorsports here in the Bay Area actually has the timing chain service listed on their website for a base price of $5,500. If I can get through it for not much more than that, it would probably make sense. The advantage to driving my old S4 is that the paint is already faded, the undercarriage is beat up, the wheels are beat up. It's parked outside 24/7 in neighborhoods that aren't that great. In the winter I drive it to Tahoe and sometimes Oregon, where it gets covered with dirty snow and de-icing road gunk that gets flung upward by other cars and trucks, along with a few pebbles, and I just don't worry about it anymore. It's liberating. I throw muddy bikes on top of it and drive through a hail and don't care. And yet when I slip inside, it's still the uncompromised Audi + Recaro + 6MT + custom audio + V8 + quattro driving experience.

Buying a sick mint condition newer Audi would mean switching from workhorse to princess, and all the stress that comes along with it. Given my living situation and desired use case, maybe that doesn't make sense for me right now.

[tjbradney]

Shops cant figure out why its burning oil? have they done a compression test , leak down test or even scoped the cylinders ?

[earthtodan]

Nope. I asked them about a boroscope but they said you can't learn much from it. I should go see what 034 says.

[mad70sx]

Nope. I asked them about a boroscope but they said you can't learn much from it.

lol wat?? I would avoid that shop at all costs if they said something like that to me.

Not a lot of V8 AWD sports sedans out there. The B6/7 S4 is worth the investment and worth repairing and saving, imho.

I did a full timing chain/guide repair on mine a little over a year ago and I couldn't be happier having done so. (certainly wasn't a cheap repair, but worth it, imo) It was either repair my beloved S4 or finance some other hi-po vehicle. The 2 main reasons why I repaired mine as opposed to financing something new was 1) I didn't want a monthly car payment and 2) there is nothing else out there, car wise, that I can afford that I would want to drive.

[VinnysS4]

Scoping the cylinders will show you if the walls are scored or not. This is a very common oil consumption issue. A leakdown should tell the rest unless it's PCV related. I'd find another shop to get a second opinion first

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[caliizaktiv]

Are you blowing blue smoke on acceleration or start-up?

[earthtodan]

No blue smoke, no smoke of any kind, and no visible leaks. The oil pan tends to get a little slick under the gasket, but nothing above it, and I've had the gasket bolts torqued.

Also replaced the PCV valve recently.

The possibility of cylinder scoring is what holds me back. I can deal with adding a quart of oil every 600 miles for the next few years but I don't know if that's going to be the only issue.

[VinnysS4]

That gets expensive.....

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[earthtodan]

2) there is nothing else out there, car wise, that I can afford that I would want to drive.

Agreed. When I start to look at $20k, $30k, $40k for a replacement, <$10k for my car starts to look like a pretty good deal.

The shop set me up to expect way over $10k, and they're certainly not encouraging me to go for it. JMH and 034 are doing it for under $6k so I'd go for that if scoring doesn't turn out to be a bigger problem.

[mad70sx]

If you're not consuming a lot of oil and no blue smoke, then it's probably not likely your walls are scored. I'd at least do a cylinder compression check (and/or a leak down test) if you decide to repair.

Your S is worth saving, imho but only you can decide that. (or the next owner )

[itsmatt33]

sounds like your shop is garbage and you should have made your way to 034 or JHM a long time ago. I would personally go to JHM as they are the 4.2 experts and are slightly cheaper than 034

[earthtodan]

I like my shop, but they may not be up for this job.

Is JHM notably more reputable than 034? They're a little farther away. I think of them both as competent specialists but I don't really know.

[itsmatt33]

I like my shop, but they may not be up for this job.

Is JHM notably more reputable than 034? They're a little farther away. I think of them both as competent specialists but I don't really know.

If youre shop cant handle a timing chain job you shouldnt be going there for anything.

JHM is THE 4.2 shop. both shops are VAG experts and both will do outstanding jobs on your car at the right price. I would call them both. get quotes and availability and go from there.

[Night Train]

https://www.ebay.com/i/292040163299?chn=ps. I went this route on my 2005 S4 convertible. Made the most sense because my shop said at 108k miles, oil consumption would become an issue. I hope to have it back in less than a week.

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[earthtodan]

https://www.ebay.com/i/292040163299?chn=ps. I went this route on my 2005 S4 convertible. Made the most sense because my shop said at 108k miles, oil consumption would become an issue. I hope to have it back in less than a week.

Amazing that you can still get a new engine. I'm taking mine in to Griffin Motorwerke next week for a new diagnosis.

[Night Train]

Mine arrived in great condition to MD from seller in Oregon. Shipping was around $600. Still trying to figure out what to do with old engine though? Best of luck to you.

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[mad70sx]

Still trying to figure out what to do with old engine though?

Sell it. Post it in the classifieds here. I'm sure someone will take it off your hands for the right price.

[mad70sx]

https://www.ebay.com/i/292040163299?chn=ps.

Been drooling over this motor for a year now. lol Last I saw, they only had one left.

If you go this route, you might still want to consider making sure the chain guides are the most current versions and maybe install JHM's mechanical cam adjuster kit. Might save you from some headaches in the long run.

[Night Train]

Mine was a 2008 crate with improved guides. FYI, l bought "the last one" 2 weeks ago. ;-) Seller gave me a great deal on OEM flywheel and clutch. He was prompt, courteous, and professional though.

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[mad70sx]

Jelly!

[cobraBLACK]

Still trying to figure out what to do with old engine though?

Make a coffee table like they did on Top Gear.

[VinnysS4]

I've been wanting to do this foreva

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[q_dubz]

I will say this. You can't determine the extent of scoring (depth) from a bore scope. Second you can have scoring and burn virtually zero oil. Another reason why scoping is silly.

Third, have you had your check valves replaced? What makes you think you need ANOTHER timing job?

[TEB]

I feel you. After 9 years of ownership, I said goodbye to my B6S4 last week due to timing issues. I bought a B8S4. I like this car, but it's completely different than the B6 -- completely.

[q_dubz]

I feel you. After 9 years of ownership, I said goodbye to my B6S4 last week due to timing issues. I bought a B8S4. I like this car, but it's completely different than the B6 -- completely.

Still has the same chain design setup just metal guide upgrade from factory 😉

[earthtodan]

I will say this. You can't determine the extent of scoring (depth) from a bore scope. Second you can have scoring and burn virtually zero oil. Another reason why scoping is silly.

Third, have you had your check valves replaced? What makes you think you need ANOTHER timing job?

This is what Tomas Sport Tuning said, a boroscope is interesting but not useful. It does seem weird that I would need another timing job though. Hopefully middle of next week I'll have a second opinion from Griffin.

Griffin gets great reps here on the regional forum, but they said they would want to use all factory parts for a timing job. So I'd still have to make the trip out to JHM if I wanted to get their upgraded timing kit.

[TEB]

Still has the same chain design setup just metal guide upgrade from factory 😉

All else equal, I'd still rather have my B6, but the plastic guides are an issue. Especially when you find pieces in the oil change:

[q_dubz]

This is what Tomas Sport Tuning said, a boroscope is interesting but not useful. It does seem weird that I would need another timing job though. Hopefully middle of next week I'll have a second opinion from Griffin.

Griffin gets great reps here on the regional forum, but they said they would want to use all factory parts for a timing job. So I'd still have to make the trip out to JHM if I wanted to get their upgraded timing kit.

RS4 parts are factory parts. If you're referring to the upgraded cam adjusters back halves. Then you can still buy then and get them to install them.

And you still didn't answer my question. What makes you think you need ANOTHER timing job?

[earthtodan]

That's just the shop's best guess, based on the noise it makes (intermittently) and the fact that a couple of cylinders on the driver's side camshaft have misfires from timing retardation. They idled it with the VAG-com plugged in and watched the misfire signals slowly accumulate. I personally don't know enough to say whether they're correct.

[q_dubz]

Then they need to look at block 91 or 92 in vagcom and see what the cams are set at.

They also need to swap plugs and or coil packs to see if the misfires move. Then they could also swap injectors.

[VinnysS4]

This is what Tomas Sport Tuning said, a boroscope is interesting but not useful. It does seem weird that I would need another timing job though. Hopefully middle of next week I'll have a second opinion from Griffin.

Griffin gets great reps here on the regional forum, but they said they would want to use all factory parts for a timing job. So I'd still have to make the trip out to JHM if I wanted to get their upgraded timing kit.

JHM uses factory parts except for their upgraded adjuster sprockets. Everything else is OEM I believe. The "upgraded " guides are OEM factory parts, just from the RS4 so they don't fail again.

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[earthtodan]

Based on the description of symptoms of a wallowed out cam adjuster in their video, I think that's my issue.

https://jhmotorsports.com/jhm-timing...-40v-full.html

Looking at the receipt from a few years ago, the chain guides themselves were replaced, tensioners were replaced, but I don't know if the "tensioner" is the same as the "adjuster." If this was replaced and has worn out again after 25k miles, then maybe it's related to low oil pressure events from the oil loss issue.

timing BI.jpg

BTW, I don't pretend to know what I'm talking about.

[VinnysS4]

Adjusters and tensioners are totally different.

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[earthtodan]

That explains it then. The adjusters need to be replaced for the first time at 135k. Now I just have to figure out where all the oil is going.

[VinnysS4]

Yeah, the adjusters aren't on the parts list
I would probably just change them and if you have original guides, swap those as well. I'd leave the rest
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[earthtodan]

Now it makes sense. Tomas took one listen and said it's probably the cam chain guide (and advised me not to drive it), and the "drop the engine to replace the timing mechanism in the back" conversation made me think it was the tensioners again.