Why are flash tunes so expensive on this platform?

[TEB]

So was I. Audi used both a simens and bosch ecu depending on year.

Most tuners have a price difference reflecting this...

Just so I understand, is one of those two ecus harder to work with than the other? And, can I assume, that whichever is harder is the same ecu mfr used in the 3.0?

[Tony@EPL]

Just so I understand, is one of those two ecus harder to work with than the other? And, can I assume, that whichever is harder is the same ecu mfr used in the 3.0?

It would be a complete over simplification to say yes since you are talking about 4-5 different ecu's.... but yes that is mostly accurate.

[NotQuickEnough]

Yeah I'm still convinced we pay a "luxury tax" on tunes. For instance, rs4 v8 tune is $699, r8 v8 tune is $1199, v10 is $1499, they use the same MED 9 ECU, so I would imagine the "cracking costs, re: development costs" are the same. Also, if "cost to crack" the ecu was the main determining factor on price, why didn't we see an increase in price on VW 2.0T tunes when they switched to the Simos 18?

This. Blows my mind some are bringing up having enough money for $60k car etc, rich people become rich and stay rich because they spend less. I'm not going to buy something just because I can afford it, it has to make sense.

Also shouldn't R&D costs have already been covered by this point in time?

Anyway props to EPL for responding to a touchy subject!

[steampunkjunker]

You mean other than the competing piggyback devices that cost 1/3 the price for stage 2?

[mavz]

This. Blows my mind some are bringing up having enough money for $60k car etc, rich people become rich and stay rich because they spend less. I'm not going to buy something just because I can afford it, it has to make sense.

Also shouldn't R&D costs have already been covered by this point in time?

Anyway props to EPL for responding to a touchy subject!

Someone already mentioned it, if you don't like it - don't pay for it as you eluded to as well.

You maximize profits as a business right? If the current market price is what they (the tuners) deemed satisfactory to their business then it doesn't matter what the reason is.

Hypothetical: If you could make 300% profit but lose 10% sales vs when you were making 200% profit would you do it?

[blackfunk]

This. Blows my mind some are bringing up having enough money for $60k car etc, rich people become rich and stay rich because they spend less. I'm not going to buy something just because I can afford it, it has to make sense.

Also shouldn't R&D costs have already been covered by this point in time?

Anyway props to EPL for responding to a touchy subject!

While I 110% agree with you we should also note that these companies have employees and need a consistent revenue stream while they work on the next platform. So in layman terms, don't expect a price reduction anytime soon.

With that said I'd like to point out the hypocracy on this forum where people constantly state 'pay to play' like it a badge of honor. Simple bits and peices are WAYYY over priced on this platform vs others. i.e exhaust, intakes, driveline mounts, carbon fiber bobbles, brake systems etc etc.

[JBalls]

I’m also from the N54 335i platform, and if my HPFP didn’t blow up four times under warranty when I used to have one back in Canada, I might’ve been back in one after relocating to Asia. Great car, when it worked.

I always figured a big part of the aftermarket mod pricing disparity was from the fact that that car was considered part of the mass market “3 Series” line-up and thus kept cheaper, as opposed to the step up line of designated “S” cars that our Audi’s are compared to perceived mass market “A” cars..


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[GandalfTheIbis]

Perception may be a bit different, but don't let it fool you. S cars are mass market cars. RS cars are not... except for some reason the RS3 feels like it is right now... but it's probably just a reflection of the economics in big cities in America.

[mavz]

Perception may be a bit different, but don't let it fool you. S cars are mass market cars. RS cars are not... except for some reason the RS3 feels like it is right now... but it's probably just a reflection of the economics in big cities in America.

Yup it's better marketing by Audi imo since S cars compete with the 35/40 BMWs. S4 sounds better than 335/340

[ENV²]

I kind of get it now. Custom dyno tune on my V cost $650. It will cost $350 anytime after that when I add more parts and need more tune. I am not sure whether I am going to do that or just move to a different platform after this season.

[Toaster11]

Just to run along with this thread.... I went with APR stage 1 in my 2006 VW GTI. Spent $500 - $600. I was blown away by the cost for APR stage 1 for my S4. (I have not tuned it yet.) Why would I spend $1.5K on a tune when I could buy a $300 - $400 CW piggy? From what I've read on this forum, they work very well.

[switchedstance]

Just to run along with this thread.... I went with APR stage 1 in my 2006 VW GTI. Spent $500 - $600. I was blown away by the cost for APR stage 1 for my S4. (I have not tuned it yet.) Why would I spend $1.5K on a tune when I could buy a $300 - $400 CW piggy? From what I've read on this forum, they work very well.

Exactly, and combined with TD1 possibility, I went the latter route also. Not to mention you can sell your CW for easily 2/3 what you paid for it.

[Tony@EPL]

I kind of get it now. Custom dyno tune on my V cost $650. It will cost $350 anytime after that when I add more parts and need more tune. I am not sure whether I am going to do that or just move to a different platform after this season.

You bring up a very important point...and this will be a very controversial thing Im about to say.....

In most cases like this your 650 dollar tune should be LESS because MOST are produced by a tuner that PURCHASES a flashing system, map pack, flashing licensee for your vehicle and possibly even a base map to start with. Theses are all things/system/knowledge that are produced/acquired/learned in house by all major tuners on this forum.

To start "professionally" tuning certain platforms its as easy as writing a check and waiting for your package to show up.

[badazzstang]

Yeah most people dont think about the Flash license. My 11 GT was 700 for the tune. I dynoed the car myself and communicated back and forth with the tuner with revisions.

GM run on credits and cost on the credits can be 100 per credit. The C7 can take 4 credits so your already starting with 400 cost to tune someones car. Thats not labor just the cost of someone to touch the car on a tune. The last tune on eht eC7 ran nearly 1000.

I thoughly enjoy all my dealings with EPL. They have been nothing but great. Keep up the awesome work guys. Need to get with you guys for the trans tune and stage 2 soon!

[Chris@EPL]

Yeah most people dont think about the Flash license. My 11 GT was 700 for the tune. I dynoed the car myself and communicated back and forth with the tuner with revisions.

GM run on credits and cost on the credits can be 100 per credit. The C7 can take 4 credits so your already starting with 400 cost to tune someones car. Thats not labor just the cost of someone to touch the car on a tune. The last tune on eht eC7 ran nearly 1000.

I thoughly enjoy all my dealings with EPL. They have been nothing but great. Keep up the awesome work guys. Need to get with you guys for the trans tune and stage 2 soon!

LMK when you are ready.

[Ford Prefect]

Exactly, and combined with TD1 possibility, I went the latter route also. Not to mention you can sell your CW for easily 2/3 what you paid for it.

I changed from CWP stage 2 to EPL stage 2 and there is no comparison. I’m also not worried about running lean at any point.

EPL, IMHO, is the way to go with support here on the forum and flash from home. They also seem to have the best prices.


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[MSq5]

You mean other than the competing piggyback devices that cost 1/3 the price for stage 2?

I realize I am in an S4 thread. I have a Q5 3.0T (mods in my sig). I ran, or TRIED to run CW. It made good power, but was abrupt, jerky and did not play well with the 8 speed ZF we run, especially causing huge lag at random times and always on part throttle upshifts.

EPL's tune is smooth and consistent everywhere, every gear, every throttle position, not just at WOT. A lot of R&D to get that, on top of cracking the ECU and making great max power. I'm sure APR, GIAC, Unitronics, 034 and other real tuners have similar time invested in making their tunes work well for daily driving with all transmissions available for the engine.

Maybe if you have a 6MT CW should work fine, as you are controlling gear selection and shift points. CW is blind about such things.

[blackfunk]

I realize I am in an S4 thread. I have a Q5 3.0T (mods in my sig). I ran, or TRIED to run CW. It made good power, but was abrupt, jerky and did not play well with the 8 speed ZF we run, especially causing huge lag at random times and always on part throttle upshifts.

EPL's tune is smooth and consistent everywhere, every gear, every throttle position, not just at WOT. A lot of R&D to get that, on top of cracking the ECU and making great max power. I'm sure APR, GIAC, Unitronics, 034 and other real tuners have similar time invested in making their tunes work well for daily driving with all transmissions available for the engine.

Maybe if you have a 6MT CW should work fine, as you are controlling gear selection and shift points. CW is blind about such things.

Being devils advocate here - and I also run EPL. I'm not sure that the OP's question is being addressed. CW should really have no bearing on this discussion. The question is should tunes cost as much as they do on a mature platform on an engine that is EOL for all intents.

[Charles]

This. Blows my mind some are bringing up having enough money for $60k car etc, rich people become rich and stay rich because they spend less. I'm not going to buy something just because I can afford it, it has to make sense.

Also shouldn't R&D costs have already been covered by this point in time?

Anyway props to EPL for responding to a touchy subject!

Tony said it took over a year to crack open the B8 ECU. A good programmer is 100K/year (probably more...depending). How many programmers were working on it? After that, how much time did it take for them to test their tunes? How many techs handled that? What about race tunes and different fuel tunes? Updates to the code to refine it. Updates when new hardware is developed...
Then there's the overhead of running a business (granted, that's shared over the cost of all products offered), then you have the market. Fact is, people looking to tune an S4 are much more rare than the people looking to tune a N54/55 platform.

I have no doubt it cost a shit ton of money to dev a tune for this platform, and while R&D might have been recouped, there's still ongoing support that needs to be funded. I'm fine paying the price for it and I don't feel anyone it getting bent over by doing so.

[BlackJon]

Chipwerke “Stage 2” w/ upper pulley was the best bang for buck I did on the daily S4. On 93 octane on setting 7-1, the car came back with VERY good logs. The IAT’s were good and no issues with knock. At the price I paid for this combo, I was able to spend money on other aspects of the car to make it better without being cheap about it.

What's up, a quick question.. you may know or not it's cool either way. But I got a 2013 6MT S4 and I'm use the Chipwerke S which I was told was the best one to use with the 6MT. I run it to the F setting and with 93 octane (working like a dream) but I want update my pulley. Would my CW S compute to Stage 2 once I update the pulley or do I have to send it back or get a new one?

I do have roc euro intake and awe tuning touring exhaust system installed

Drive it like you stole it 😎

[ENV²]

Yeah most people dont think about the Flash license. My 11 GT was 700 for the tune. I dynoed the car myself and communicated back and forth with the tuner with revisions.

GM run on credits and cost on the credits can be 100 per credit. The C7 can take 4 credits so your already starting with 400 cost to tune someones car. Thats not labor just the cost of someone to touch the car on a tune. The last tune on eht eC7 ran nearly 1000.

I thoughly enjoy all my dealings with EPL. They have been nothing but great. Keep up the awesome work guys. Need to get with you guys for the trans tune and stage 2 soon!

So true with the GM credits piece. My tuner had to use 4 credits for mine. Its usually 3 but we needed to unlock another module so I figured he made $250 for spending hours upon hours on my car. I do not mind paying again when the time comes. He put in work.

[RCFC89]

I disagree. I ran the CW for a year before I flashed the ECU and it was very good for the money. Stage 2/ single pulley. I even tracked it 4 times that year (road course)

Bought it used on our forum and when I was done with it, I resold it on the forum. Curious, did you ever run the CW?

I agree. It has been well documented that the CW piggyback performs on par with most stage 1 tunes. Its also great for those still under factory warranty. Only way I'd go with a full tune is stage 2 or after.
What blows my mind is that people will pay thousands of dollars to tune these cars to only put a cheap plastic Chinese grill from Ebay on their car

[Estoril4]

Just to inject some random conjecture, I'm largely unfamiliar with the BMW tuning world. When you look at hp/$ upgrades, how do these cheaper BMW flash tunes compare? Are they raising your wheel figures as much as one of our stage 1 tunes? Do they require TCU tunes as well?

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[EAFLO88]

What's up, a quick question.. you may know or not it's cool either way. But I got a 2013 6MT S4 and I'm use the Chipwerke S which I was told was the best one to use with the 6MT. I run it to the F setting and with 93 octane (working like a dream) but I want update my pulley. Would my CW S compute to Stage 2 once I update the pulley or do I have to send it back or get a new one?

I do have roc euro intake and awe tuning touring exhaust system installed

Drive it like you stole it

You’ll have to send it back to them to update it for the extra boost. Just hit up CW and they’ll send it back in no time.

[wangshuo1989]

Tony said it took over a year to crack open the B8 ECU. A good programmer is 100K/year (probably more...depending). How many programmers were working on it? After that, how much time did it take for them to test their tunes? How many techs handled that? What about race tunes and different fuel tunes? Updates to the code to refine it. Updates when new hardware is developed...
Then there's the overhead of running a business (granted, that's shared over the cost of all products offered), then you have the market. Fact is, people looking to tune an S4 are much more rare than the people looking to tune a N54/55 platform.

I have no doubt it cost a shit ton of money to dev a tune for this platform, and while R&D might have been recouped, there's still ongoing support that needs to be funded. I'm fine paying the price for it and I don't feel anyone it getting bent over by doing so.

100K a year is for new grads. A good engineer's salary is about 200K to 300K, at least in Seattle area. So yeah I can understand the tune cost if the firmware is very hard to crack. It takes a lot of resource (hardware), and labor to iterate and test.

[BlackJon]

You’ll have to send it back to them to update it for the extra boost. Just hit up CW and they’ll send it back in no time.

Thanks, yea I called them and they gave the the low down

Drive it like you stole it 😎

[Charles]

100K a year is for new grads. A good engineer's salary is about 200K to 300K, at least in Seattle area. So yeah I can understand the tune cost if the firmware is very hard to crack. It takes a lot of resource (hardware), and labor to iterate and test.

Yeah, I'm coming from database/.net corporate world in Florida, so yeah, good to know. I should def expand my coding resume. Unfortunately, I have zero urge to move to Seattle. Haha!

[MSq5]

Being devils advocate here - and I also run EPL. I'm not sure that the OP's question is being addressed. CW should really have no bearing on this discussion. The question is should tunes cost as much as they do on a mature platform on an engine that is EOL for all intents.

My point is that CW is cheaper because no attempt is made to provide part throttle and daily drive shifting smoothness. Good ECU tunes (and TCU tunes) take a lot of R&D time and resources to crack our complex code and not only tune for WOT power but for smoothness under all operating conditions. We also have had more than one type of ECU, and Audi keeps reflashing them with changes, making tuners have to adjust, especially those who provide flash back to stock capability.

[RReddington]

I changed from CWP stage 2 to EPL stage 2 and there is no comparison. I’m also not worried about running lean at any point.

EPL, IMHO, is the way to go with support here on the forum and flash from home. They also seem to have the best prices.


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Lol, what's so special about EPL exactly? Their prices aren't even that great if you consider getting more maps at different times and not getting it when their tunes go on sale. In Canada, Unitronic stock to DP including pullies is $2000 Canadian. Now that's a good deal, no sale needed. But then their TCU tune is a ridiculous amount for those that are DSG. There is no winning. EPL sucks if you want to go stage 2 at a different time or if you want to add a race map or something, it's ridiculously expensive if you don't do it all at once.

It's been so long since these tunes have been released. Initially, I understand the pricing being high. But after more and more cars are being tuned as the 3.0Ts get cheaper to purchase for the younger crowds, I don't see why pricing doesn't go down. Oh wait, I do..the companies aren't down to engage in pricing wars.

[RReddington]

Yeah I'm still convinced we pay a "luxury tax" on tunes. For instance, rs4 v8 tune is $699, r8 v8 tune is $1199, v10 is $1499, they use the same MED 9 ECU, so I would imagine the "cracking costs, re: development costs" are the same. Also, if "cost to crack" the ecu was the main determining factor on price, why didn't we see an increase in price on VW 2.0T tunes when they switched to the Simos 18?

Great facts pointed out.

[PopTart]

Why don't you complain about Exhaust prices? $1400 for an extra 80HP is worth it.

[mercedesinfarct]

It's cheaper than that. During a sale you can get a GIAC flash at home kit for less than $1100. The people who are shitting on these tunes better not have any sort of full catback exhaust system. That would be..you know..hypocritical.

[BozMan-S4]

I won’t comment on tuner vs tuner but share how I looked at cost. I agree, I was a little sticker shocked when I joined this B8 platform 5-6 months back. 2k-3k plus Pulley installs and necessary mods to get the most out of the tune adds up real quick. After a while of reasoning with myself and wanting to tune the car I justified it this way:
1. I believe it’s hard to find tunes for other platforms that transform the car to the level these S4’s are hitting.
2. The reliability for DD seems to be strong across all tuners while adding 100-150hp to your car and syncing the trans to match.
3. They all buy our car and do months if not years of testing.
4. If they dropped prices dramatically you’d have several thousand existing customers pissed off.
5. After putting the money up I have smiled more than 2000 times, so I can live with $1 a smile and that price only gets better as the smiles continue.

It’s hard to peel off that kind of cash considering you should do exhaust, intake and cooling to maximize the investment. My experience...as soon as I flashed the car I forgot how much I paid for the tune...zero buyers remorse.

Someone is selling a Stage 1, TCU and cable from EPL for $1200.00 right now on AZ. That’s a pretty strong deal, if I was searching now for a tune and know what I know about EPL...I’d buy it.

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[Ford Prefect]

Lol, what's so special about EPL exactly? Their prices aren't even that great if you consider getting more maps at different times and not getting it when their tunes go on sale. In Canada, Unitronic stock to DP including pullies is $2000 Canadian. Now that's a good deal, no sale needed. But then their TCU tune is a ridiculous amount for those that are DSG. There is no winning. EPL sucks if you want to go stage 2 at a different time or if you want to add a race map or something, it's ridiculously expensive if you don't do it all at once.

It's been so long since these tunes have been released. Initially, I understand the pricing being high. But after more and more cars are being tuned as the 3.0Ts get cheaper to purchase for the younger crowds, I don't see why pricing doesn't go down. Oh wait, I do..the companies aren't down to engage in pricing wars.

I didn’t say they were special, I said I thought they were the way to go for the reasons I stated. When I was looking they were the best.

Someone said it earlier, this is simple: if people stop buying tunes for the prices listed then prices will go down. That’s how it works, why would any business drop prices just because?


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[blackfunk]

My point is that CW is cheaper because no attempt is made to provide part throttle and daily drive shifting smoothness. Good ECU tunes (and TCU tunes) take a lot of R&D time and resources to crack our complex code and not only tune for WOT power but for smoothness under all operating conditions. We also have had more than one type of ECU, and Audi keeps reflashing them with changes, making tuners have to adjust, especially those who provide flash back to stock capability.

I'm saying specifically - removing CW from the discussion because it was not a part of the OP question - tunes tend to cost more on this platform than other platform - significantly more too. The comparable BMW or Merc tune is cheaper - why? I'd imagine that similar levels of development goes into both for what I'd imagine are after market pools of similar sizes (no evidence of this just flat out guessing). As I also pointed out earlier its not just tunes but hardware as well costing more. Why?

[RReddington]

I didn’t say they were special, I said I thought they were the way to go for the reasons I stated. When I was looking they were the best.

Someone said it earlier, this is simple: if people stop buying tunes for the prices listed then prices will go down. That’s how it works, why would any business drop prices just because?


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Ah sorry, read your comment wrong, thought you said they should get supported for being cheap!

Well it's simple really, all the big companies have made their return on investment. The amounts of tunes that will be sold will go up as the price of the cars go down. The margin on stage 1 tunes is nearly 100%. That means if certain companies drop their prices in order to be much more competitive, their sales will go up and most likely their profits. Certain companies won't decrease their prices, that's obvious (IE APR because they think their brand is strong enough to not warrant such a thing).

But regardless, yes, even at 1000USD for a stage 1 tune, it's amazing bang for buck. But that's not the point, OP is comparing our tunes to other cars. That's the whole point of this discussion. And again, I repeat, I feel like our platform has more tuners than any platform I've ever seen. There's literally like 8 companies that tune for our cars. That's actually ridiculous.

[RReddington]

I won’t comment on tuner vs tuner but share how I looked at cost. I agree, I was a little sticker shocked when I joined this B8 platform 5-6 months back. 2k-3k plus Pulley installs and necessary mods to get the most out of the tune adds up real quick. After a while of reasoning with myself and wanting to tune the car I justified it this way:
1. I believe it’s hard to find tunes for other platforms that transform the car to the level these S4’s are hitting.
2. The reliability for DD seems to be strong across all tuners while adding 100-150hp to your car and syncing the trans to match.
3. They all buy our car and do months if not years of testing.
4. If they dropped prices dramatically you’d have several thousand existing customers pissed off.
5. After putting the money up I have smiled more than 2000 times, so I can live with $1 a smile and that price only gets better as the smiles continue.

It’s hard to peel off that kind of cash considering you should do exhaust, intake and cooling to maximize the investment. My experience...as soon as I flashed the car I forgot how much I paid for the tune...zero buyers remorse.

Someone is selling a Stage 1, TCU and cable from EPL for $1200.00 right now on AZ. That’s a pretty strong deal, if I was searching now for a tune and know what I know about EPL...I’d buy it.

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1. There are plenty, actually. 335i/C63s/M3s/M5s/E63s etc etc
2. The TCU tune is a separate issue on its own. It's nearly $1,000 just for that, we're not even talking about that, so that's a bit irrelevant. Although plenty of cars are reliable with gaining 100hp too
3. Don't think all tuners buy the cars tbh..and again this happens with almost every tuned car
4. It's not about a dramatic decrease in price. A 20-25% decrease in price is warranted, people aren't going to be pissed off that they paid $300 more 3 years ago lol
5. I do agree that it's still worth it, but that's irrelevant to OP's post. It's about comparing our car's pricing to others.

[BozMan-S4]

Okay, he asked why are they so expensive. Not if they should be...my answer may have varied. I was just giving the exact reasons tuners gave to me. The smiles part I added of course.


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[Ford Prefect]

Ah sorry, read your comment wrong, thought you said they should get supported for being cheap!

Well it's simple really, all the big companies have made their return on investment. The amounts of tunes that will be sold will go up as the price of the cars go down. The margin on stage 1 tunes is nearly 100%. That means if certain companies drop their prices in order to be much more competitive, their sales will go up and most likely their profits. Certain companies won't decrease their prices, that's obvious (IE APR because they think their brand is strong enough to not warrant such a thing).

But regardless, yes, even at 1000USD for a stage 1 tune, it's amazing bang for buck. But that's not the point, OP is comparing our tunes to other cars. That's the whole point of this discussion. And again, I repeat, I feel like our platform has more tuners than any platform I've ever seen. There's literally like 8 companies that tune for our cars. That's actually ridiculous.

The next question is, why such a large jump in price for Stage 2, lol

That actually pains me more than stage 1. I bought this car because of the stage 1 tune.


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[RReddington]

The next question is, why such a large jump in price for Stage 2, lol

That actually pains me more than stage 1. I bought this car because of the stage 1 tune.


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Well, technically, stage 1 is 85% of the gains while a single supercharger pulley is only like 15%. But daily drivability totally changes with the throttle response + torque. I don't mind the $400 charge or so for stage 2 + pulley. I just don't agree that Stage 1 should be up to $1300!