Why are flash tunes so expensive on this platform?

[NotQuickEnough]

Is there any good reason? Over at BMW land you can get MHD flasher with a vin licence and a map pack and be flashed to stage 1 or 2 for $150. With logging module and some other extras $200.
Not sure why stage 1 flash tunes here are $1000 and up?

[tominabox1]

Is there any good reason? Over at BMW land you can get MHD flasher with a vin licence and a map pack and be flashed to stage 1 or 2 for $150. With logging module and some other extras $200.
Not sure why stage 1 flash tunes here are $1000 and up?

my guess is high development cost of cracking the Audi special sauce that keeps prying eyes out of the ECU.

[theweebabyseamus]

Don’t ask. The answers won’t make you feel any better.

[doughboy17]

Same answer I give my son when similar questions are asked, "Because people will pay that much. Supply and demand." Should I assume the BMW tunes provide similar HP/TQ increases?

Regardless, good to know that BMW tunes are more inexpensive. Something to consider if I am ever lured over to the dark side.

[jimrobbington]

Same answer I give my son when similar questions are asked, "Because people will pay that much. Supply and demand." Should I assume the BMW tunes provide similar HP/TQ increases?

Regardless, good to know that BMW tunes are more inexpensive. Something to consider if I am ever lured over to the dark side.

And they provide soooo many more features. They can hijack the gauges/ display to show different things, they can control exhaust valves, Bluetooth to your phone and logging capabilities, etc

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[TheCaptain39]

Is there any good reason? Over at BMW land you can get MHD flasher with a vin licence and a map pack and be flashed to stage 1 or 2 for $150. With logging module and some other extras $200.
Not sure why stage 1 flash tunes here are $1000 and up?

Which platform were you on? The tune on my E46 m3 was around the $850 mark. JB4 isnt that cheap either for the 335 guys

[NotQuickEnough]

Which platform were you on? The tune on my E46 m3 was around the $850 mark. JB4 isnt that cheap either for the 335 guys

N54 335i. I'm talking flash tunes. JB4 is a piggy and not even that much $479 brand new. I might just go with Chipwerke Pro on the S4

[TruS4]

Yeah I came from the n54 platform too. Way more features, live gauges so no need for p3 gauges, lots of fuel options , more data logging options, list goes on. $150-450 total

[wangshuo1989]

Didn't know n54 was that cheap to tune, damn.

[AFR1485]

The S4 piggy doesn’t perform near as well as a proper flash. You get what you pay for in this case.

The Audi ECUs take a lot of resources to crack, and the market is already set. Tuners won’t get into a price war for these cars, it just doesn’t make sense.


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[RReddington]

It's ridiculous. To be honest, I don't know of any car that has more big companies that tune for it. I swear there's like 8 companies that tune for our platform...and no one is remotely inexpensive. Ridiculous.

[NotQuickEnough]

It's ridiculous. To be honest, I don't know of any car that has more big companies that tune for it. I swear there's like 8 companies that tune for our platform...and no one is remotely inexpensive. Ridiculous.

I'm sure they all came up with these prices independently too ;)

[SR7D1]

The S4 piggy doesn’t perform near as well as a proper flash. You get what you pay for in this case.

The Audi ECUs take a lot of resources to crack, and the market is already set. Tuners won’t get into a price war for these cars, it just doesn’t make sense.


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I disagree. I ran the CW for a year before I flashed the ECU and it was very good for the money. Stage 2/ single pulley. I even tracked it 4 times that year (road course)

Bought it used on our forum and when I was done with it, I resold it on the forum. Curious, did you ever run the CW?

[SteveYem]

Well, we keep paying for them, so that's what the market bears. Also (and this is a generalization), young professional with decent income can afford $50000 Audi and $1000+ tune......19 year old kid in auto tech school can afford $25000 Subaru and $300 Cobb AccessPort. Of course there are other situations - I'm just commenting based on what I see driving through the corporate park and surrounding suburbs on a daily basis.

[AFR1485]

I disagree. I ran the CW for a year before I flashed the ECU and it was very good for the money. Stage 2/ single pulley. I even tracked it 4 times that year (road course)

Bought it used on our forum and when I was done with it, I resold it on the forum. Curious, did you ever run the CW?

Not on my car, but it was on my buddies car for a while. I drove it and saw the over boost errors from it. It’s certainly a cheaper way to get more power, but when you have ~$40-$50k car it seems silly complain about the price difference between the piggy and a flash tune.

Piggy will make power, but a flash tune will perform better. The piggy is fine for the money.



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[SteveYem]

Not on my car, but it was on my buddies car for a while. I drove it and saw the over boost errors from it. It’s certainly a cheaper way to get more power, but when you have ~$40-$50k car it seems silly complain about the price difference between the piggy and a flash tune.

Piggy will make power, but a flash tune will perform better. The piggy is fine for the money.



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I used a Chipwerke S for a little while before I sold it and flashed to EPL Stage 1. In a way, the Chipwerke piggyback was a more apparent performance boost than the ECU flashed tune, because of how relatively crudely it integrates with the stock programming. In other words, I could regularly feel the Chipwerke "kick in", whereas the ECU tune feels like a much smoother torque curve.

[SR7D1]

Overboost errors? That's odd, the ECU is uncompromised and able to do everything including pull timing and boost? I logged it too and did not see any anomalies in my logs? I was running 93 octane and Stage 2 file. Maybe I had a different file than your buddy?

We both agree, it is a cheaper way to go for power.

I find it funny when people compare the cost of the car when telling others how much money they should spend on a bolt on. Some of us bought the cars used so we didn't spend that much to begin with and the less we spend on one item, the more we have leftover for other items we want.

IE: If I spent $1500 on a tune, there is nothing left for say, tires, or brakes, or intake, or whatever. But if I spent $500 on a piggy back (piggys are common all over the tuner world, in many case there are no flashes available for certain models) then I have $1000 left over for other things? So if I may, it's not really a question of being cheap, it's spending what limited funds many of us have, wisely. It's not you AFR1485, I have seen this type of "advice" given many times over the years on this Audi forum. I mean no offense, just trying to explain why some of us spend less money on certain things, that's all.

[SR7D1]

I used a Chipwerke S for a little while before I sold it and flashed to EPL Stage 1. In a way, the Chipwerke piggyback was a more apparent performance boost than the ECU flashed tune, because of how relatively crudely it integrates with the stock programming. In other words, I could regularly feel the Chipwerke "kick in", whereas the ECU tune feels like a much smoother torque curve.

Unless you have a GIAC flash, it's still not smooth! LOL. But I agree totally on the throttle tip in with the CW.

[Tony@EPL]

I generally stay out of this stuff... but Ill comment....

I remember tuning my first n54.... it took me 2-3 days to have a viable stage 1 project for resale.
I also remember tuning my first b8.... it took most of 2010-2011 to have a viable stage 1 for resale.....

[doughboy17]

I generally stay out of this stuff... but Ill comment....

I remember tuning my first n54.... it took me 2-3 days to have a viable stage 1 project for resale.
I also remember tuning my first b8.... it took most of 2010-2011 to have a viable stage 1 for resale.....

This speaks volumes. Tony, best wishes on cracking the B9 S4.

[SR7D1]

I generally stay out of this stuff... but Ill comment....

I remember tuning my first n54.... it took me 2-3 days to have a viable stage 1 project for resale.
I also remember tuning my first b8.... it took most of 2010-2011 to have a viable stage 1 for resale.....

Tony, I don't have your tune but thanks for developing an alternative for us in the consumer marketplace and helping make our cars faster!

[Tony@EPL]

This speaks volumes. Tony, best wishes on cracking the B9 S4.

Perfect example of what VAG is doing to us and why B9 tunes will be just as expensive if not MORE then the B8.... The B9 shares the same ECU as the new Ford Raptor.

Ford has left the ecu open enough that US tuners got in to the ECU in a few weeks start to finish.
VAG has lock that ECU down to the point that the car have been on US soil for over a year and not a single US tuner has released a product....

Currently there is no other manufacturer that locks their ECU's down more then VAG.

[EAFLO88]

Chipwerke “Stage 2” w/ upper pulley was the best bang for buck I did on the daily S4. On 93 octane on setting 7-1, the car came back with VERY good logs. The IAT’s were good and no issues with knock. At the price I paid for this combo, I was able to spend money on other aspects of the car to make it better without being cheap about it.

[AFR1485]

If you complain about the price then you shouldn’t buy it. I’m the king of paying less for my mods; I just wait until I find the price i want or have the money to pay full price.

You can’t be mad at a manufacturer for charging as much as they can for a product. The day their high price affects their bottom line is when they might consider dropping it. Until then everyone needs to live with it.


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[SR7D1]

If you complain about the price then you shouldn’t buy it. I’m the king of paying less for my mods; I just wait until I find the price i want or have the money to pay full price.

You can’t be mad at a manufacturer for charging as much as they can for a product. The day their high price affects their bottom line is when they might consider dropping it. Until then everyone needs to live with it.


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You're not talking to me? Right? I'm not complaining about the price of anything? That was the OP.

After all, I am running the GIAC and Stoptech BBK, not cheap items by any means. And just like you, I bought each at the right time, GIAC Black Friday sale and BBK 1 year old from a forum member.

[AFR1485]

You're not talking to me? Right? I'm not complaining about the price of anything? That was the OP.

I was making two different point.


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[SR7D1]

Is there any good reason? Over at BMW land you can get MHD flasher with a vin licence and a map pack and be flashed to stage 1 or 2 for $150. With logging module and some other extras $200.
Not sure why stage 1 flash tunes here are $1000 and up?

Not sure if this helps, but maybe Tony @ EPL was able to answer your original question? Because VAG has the ECU locked down so tight? I dunno.

[AFR1485]

I generally stay out of this stuff... but Ill comment....

I remember tuning my first n54.... it took me 2-3 days to have a viable stage 1 project for resale.
I also remember tuning my first b8.... it took most of 2010-2011 to have a viable stage 1 for resale.....

I don’t pretend to understand I know what it take to crack these ECUs. I believe the price represents the work you guys put into to. These tunes aren’t open source, they are a commercial product we totally want :)


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[theswoleguy]

Perfect example of what VAG is doing to us and why B9 tunes will be just as expensive if not MORE then the B8.... The B9 shares the same ECU as the new Ford Raptor.

Ford has left the ecu open enough that US tuners got in to the ECU in a few weeks start to finish.
VAG has lock that ECU down to the point that the car have been on US soil for over a year and not a single US tuner has released a product....

Currently there is no other manufacturer that locks their ECU's down more then VAG.

If only it was a simple as swapping the raptor ecu and flashing vag tune.

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[TEB]

I generally stay out of this stuff... but Ill comment....

I remember tuning my first n54.... it took me 2-3 days to have a viable stage 1 project for resale.
I also remember tuning my first b8.... it took most of 2010-2011 to have a viable stage 1 for resale.....

So, the 3.0T is locked down more than the 2.0T? The 2.0T tune seems to be half price of the 3.0T tune.....

[Tony@EPL]

So, the 3.0T is locked down more than the 2.0T? The 2.0T tune seems to be half price of the 3.0T tune.....

First - saying 2.0 vs 3.0 can be confusing... because your talking about several different ecu's, both Bosch make vs Seimens.

But honestly the simple answer is just economy of scale. VAG only used the 3.0t in Audi chassis. VAG used the 2.0 Engines in basically EVERY platform, make, model, trim they could stick it in... We do not offer 2.0t tunes, but Im sure that tuners that do sell 10 of them for every 3.0t tune they sell...

[steampunkjunker]

Not on my car, but it was on my buddies car for a while. I drove it and saw the over boost errors from it. It’s certainly a cheaper way to get more power, but when you have ~$40-$50k car it seems silly complain about the price difference between the piggy and a flash tune.

Piggy will make power, but a flash tune will perform better. The piggy is fine for the money.



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Would you spend $100 on tire valve caps because you have an expensive car. I totally don’t agree with this logic on S4 tunes. And my 2013 S4 certainly isn’t worth $60k. Next time I’d consider a piggyback unit for sure.


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[Corradobrit]

From what I understand the B9 ECU needs to communicate with other systems controllers around the chassis to function. This is why working on the ECU in isolation has been unsuccessful (so far). I have a feeling that if it hasn't happened already its not going to. Better make the most of your B8/8.5's.

[TEB]

First - saying 2.0 vs 3.0 can be confusing... because your talking about several different ecu's, both Bosch make vs Seimens.

But honestly the simple answer is just economy of scale. VAG only used the 3.0t in Audi chassis. VAG used the 2.0 Engines in basically EVERY platform, make, model, trim they could stick it in... We do not offer 2.0t tunes, but Im sure that tuners that do sell 10 of them for every 3.0t tune they sell...

I was just specifically referring to the the tunes for the engines in the B8 platform. Did Audi do something different to make the 3.0T less accessible?

just trying to remove BMW from the discussion and talk apples to apples.

[badazzstang]

Would you spend $100 on tire valve caps because you have an expensive car. I totally don’t agree with this logic on S4 tunes. And my 2013 S4 certainly isn’t worth $60k. Next time I’d consider a piggyback unit for sure.


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I agree. It blows my mind that part companies have zero push back about not putting out coupon codes and what not. My company wouldn't make as good of numbers without coupon codes flying around. ECS does a good job with putting new items on sale but I am surprise that there is not even an option for a coupon anywhere. Not even an option for one. My company is very similar to ECS as far as manufacturing our own parts, and the type of items we sell.

[switchedstance]

So, the 3.0T is locked down more than the 2.0T? The 2.0T tune seems to be half price of the 3.0T tune.....

Yeah I'm still convinced we pay a "luxury tax" on tunes. For instance, rs4 v8 tune is $699, r8 v8 tune is $1199, v10 is $1499, they use the same MED 9 ECU, so I would imagine the "cracking costs, re: development costs" are the same. Also, if "cost to crack" the ecu was the main determining factor on price, why didn't we see an increase in price on VW 2.0T tunes when they switched to the Simos 18?

[TEB]

I agree. It blows my mind that part companies have zero push back about not putting out coupon codes and what not. My company wouldn't make as good of numbers without coupon codes flying around. ECS does a good job with putting new items on sale but I am surprise that there is not even an option for a coupon anywhere. Not even an option for one. My company is very similar to ECS as far as manufacturing our own parts, and the type of items we sell.

Unitronics is 10% off right now, FWIW.

[Tony@EPL]

I was just specifically referring to the the tunes for the engines in the B8 platform. Did Audi do something different to make the 3.0T less accessible?

just trying to remove BMW from the discussion and talk apples to apples.

So was I. Audi used both a simens and bosch ecu depending on year.

Most tuners have a price difference reflecting this...

[303 Spartan]

From what I understand the B9 ECU needs to communicate with other systems controllers around the chassis to function. This is why working on the ECU in isolation has been unsuccessful (so far). I have a feeling that if it hasn't happened already its not going to. Better make the most of your B8/8.5's.

Honestly, this is what scares me about jumping into a B9. Also, as car tech continues to advance, it has me worried that aftermarket tuning for new cars in the future will become a thing of the past. And I want to be clear when I say "aftermarket tuning", because I have no doubt that as aftermarket tuning fades away, car manufacturers/dealers will gladly offer an *insert car brand here* backed 'upgraded' tune for your car for another $2,500. And those dealer installed tunes will still probably cause warranty repair issues, too.

For this reason I've come to the realization that for the first time in my car buying life, when I'm shopping for my next car I'll need to account for this and make sure to splurge a little more on the car that already has the performance output I want. Rather than planning on improving the performance afterwards.

Times, they are changing...

[AFR1485]

Would you spend $100 on tire valve caps because you have an expensive car. I totally don’t agree with this logic on S4 tunes. And my 2013 S4 certainly isn’t worth $60k. Next time I’d consider a piggyback unit for sure.


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Sorry I wasn’t clear with my “expense car point”. I paid $24k for my 2014 S4.

The expensive car refers to the higher cost of maintenance and parts. The parts for my car will be more than parts for a $25k Honda. This includes the work to create a tune for this platform. EPL already explained the work it took to crack the VAG ECU.

Everyone loves capitalism until they need to pay the price.


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