Cam adjuster or valve noise

[S46speed]

I’ve recently completed major service and my car has picked up a noise from under the rear of the passenger cam cover. It sounds like an industrial sewing machine. I think it’s the pin in the adjuster puck not engaging or releasing. Ive found many videos of broken guides but none showing the sound of a bad adjuster. I’ve recently rebuilt both adjusters with the jhm kit, installed all new chains, guides, and oil checkvalves. The idle is smooth with no misfire or codes. I’ve ordered a borescope to inspect valves. Any help diagnosing is appreciated. I have a video but can only attach photos.



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[S46speed]

Here is a link to the video https://youtu.be/BBFZ9RYdtRk


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[VinnysS4]

Not sure what to think of the sound. There are a couple possibilities. Quick question tho.... did you air test the adjusters before reinstalling them?
I've seen a bad tensioner make this noise. It was oscillating in and out rapidly making a tapping noise. It was a faulty part (Not sure how it could be caused, but it was replaced and the noise went away) it was diagnosed by removing one of the upper timing covers.
Did you remove the cams at all?

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[VinnysS4]

I tend to shy away from thinking adjuster failure due to the smooth idle. Any check engine codes? Do you have VCDS? if so, log blocks 91, 92, and 93. Post a picture.

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[S46speed]

I did perform the air test. One took a few tries to get to work. I thought it might be the way I was doing it and it would be fine with hydraulic power. Now I’m not sure if it might be hanging up. I don’t have vcds. I used the OBD Fusion app with WiFi dongle to scan for codes.

Oscillating tensioner sounds like a possibility. How could you tell it was bad? Did you turn the engine over with cover off to see it?


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[VinnysS4]

Let me see if I can find the video

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[VinnysS4]

Here are the 2 videos
https://youtu.be/cPX8qk_ab4A
https://youtu.be/Hu3PgzYN6EM

From this thread:
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url...9&share_type=t



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[S46speed]

Thanks, that sounds a lot like it.


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[S46speed]

I took off the cover to check the tensioner. It does have a slight hop but makes no sound when cranking. Here is a video https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_1zWiAW8eKk


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[S46speed]

I went ahead and replaced the tensioner and guide to see if it might be defective. It’s still making the noise. Now I think it might be a clogged oil passage. Does anyone know how the oil is routed to the cams, lifters, and the tensioner on the head? I read something about a piece of rtv in a passage near the cam caps a while back but can’t find it again. That person also had noise only on one side.


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[VinnysS4]

There is a round supply bar for each set of lifters. It comes out the front of the head with removal of a 5mm(I think) Allen head screw. Oil is fed into this and to each lifter. Here is a video that shows it a little bit . There is a screen on the head that could get clogged with rtv I guess.
Did you remove the control housings? And I can't find it, but did you remove the adjuster to see if it works?
https://youtu.be/5XDnceGuh3s

I went ahead and replaced the tensioner and guide to see if it might be defective. It’s still making the noise. Now I think it might be a clogged oil passage. Does anyone know how the oil is routed to the cams, lifters, and the tensioner on the head? I read something about a piece of rtv in a passage near the cam caps a while back but can’t find it again. That person also had noise only on one side.


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[VinnysS4]

Have you done a compression test? Your cranking doesn't sound right. Almost like you have no compression on one cyl....

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[vailshred]

Here are the 2 videos
https://youtu.be/cPX8qk_ab4A
https://youtu.be/Hu3PgzYN6EM

From this thread:
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url...9&share_type=t



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Those were my videos.
It ended up being the hydraulic adjuster, although it was new, it was not getting oil passing through it.
I switched it out with the used one and it worked fine. You should see oil squirting out of the hole on the adjuster.
Your issue does sound exactly like mine did, maybe its a adjuster on the backside of the engine and not the head... or possibly a lifter.



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[S46speed]

Thanks for the great information. I did not remove the control housing. I rebuilt the adjusters with the jhm sprocket parts when servicing timing, but did not remove to recheck. They both passed the air test before reinstalling. One did seem to take a few tries...Good observation on the sound when cranking. I hadn’t noticed. I rechecked compression on that bank last night and got the following:
1-105
2-142
3-145
4-130
#1 is lowest but seems away from where the sound is. That leaves oil delivery, lifter, adjuster, lower tensioner as possibilities ?


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[vailshred]

In your video it sounds like its coming from the rear of bank 1. Did you pull off valve cover on that bank also?
You can start the car with the valve cover off also, the oil pressure up on top of the heads is not that much. Just place some towels at the bottom of the openings.
Have a friend start the car as you listen. I personally would put my finger on the cam adjuster (on the smooth round body) and see if I could feel the ticking on the body.
You can also get a open end wrench and see if the cams are locked. I flew to Maryland last weekend to look at my buddys car, the sprocket adjuster was not locking the cam and you could spin it back and fourth a few degrees.. the pin was not setting.


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[S46speed]

The one video of the tensioner was with bank 1 cover off. I put it back and drove it a while then removed it and the back head cover to change the upper tensioner and guide. The pin holding the guide had loosened a bit so I retorqued it with loctite. There are polishing marks between the tensioner and guide. I thought that meant the tensioner was oscillating and causing the ticking and loosened the pin. But it looks like a separate issue since the noise is still there with the new tensioner. I thought about starting it with the cover off but thought it would just throw oil in my face lol. I need to regroup my courage for the next attempt.


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[q_dubz]

I’ve recently completed major service and my car has picked up a noise from under the rear of the passenger cam cover. It sounds like an industrial sewing machine. I think it’s the pin in the adjuster puck not engaging or releasing. Ive found many videos of broken guides but none showing the sound of a bad adjuster. I’ve recently rebuilt both adjusters with the jhm kit, installed all new chains, guides, and oil checkvalves. The idle is smooth with no misfire or codes. I’ve ordered a borescope to inspect valves. Any help diagnosing is appreciated. I have a video but can only attach photos.



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the pin is only engaged when the engine shuts down and during starting.

[S46speed]

the pin is only engaged when the engine shuts down and during starting.

This is interesting. I thought the pin also stayed engaged during low rpm from what they say in the jhm video. If the pin was stuck in it might explain why there is no noise when rotating the engine with the starter. But I would expect a cel code if the adjuster wasn’t working.


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[Chuckb37]

Did you find a fix for this S46speed?

I have a similar issue with bank 2. I initially thought it was a mechanical adjuster so I pulled the motor and replaced them. My symptoms were just a rattle when the engine warmed up and bank 2 cam adjuster values bouncing in VCDS. All the timing compnents are new as well as the oil check valves. So I think I have an oil blockage or bad lifters. Would a lack of oil pressure or bad lifters cause my adjuster values to bounce around?

[S46speed]

I couldn’t identify the problem and the battery died so I parked it. I’ve recently purchased vcds, a new battery, and ordered a windows laptop to have another go. Can you post a video of what your engine sounds like? Maybe your solenoid is not opening to allow oil to the adjuster. What are your cam values in vcds?


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[Chuckb37]

This is not my video but sound like what I'm hearing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gRq...I&spfreload=10

My cam phases are B1 -1 B2 -2 and adjustment values on B2 are jumping around from 9-15 at idle with 12 being spec. At higher RPMs the values are dead on.

I considered the solenoid a possibility but I'm not getting any codes for it. I guess it could be sticking partially but not completely failing. I will try the 12v trick to see if I have any improvement.

[q_dubz]

This is not my video but sound like what I'm hearing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gRq...I&spfreload=10

My cam phases are B1 -1 B2 -2 and adjustment values on B2 are jumping around from 9-15 at idle with 12 being spec. At higher RPMs the values are dead on.

I considered the solenoid a possibility but I'm not getting any codes for it. I guess it could be sticking partially but not completely failing. I will try the 12v trick to see if I have any improvement.

at higher RPM and load oil pressure is increased, values will be tighter as such.

[S46speed]

I've purchased VCDS and read the cams. They appear in spec. I think my next move will be to remove the cams to check springs, rockers, etc.

Saturday,09,March,2019,23:14:08:21266
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator Running on Windows 10 x64
VCDS Version: 18.9.1.0 (x64)
Data version: 20190114 DS296.0
www.Ross-Tech.com

Mileage: 249540km-155056mi Repair Order:

Address 01: Engine (8E0 910 560 A)

23:14:03 Group 091: Camshaft Adjustment (Bank 1 Intake)
760 /min Engine Speed (G28)
31.0 % Cam. Adjustment Intake Bank 1
12.0°KW Cam. Adjustment Intake B1 (spec.)
13.0°KW Cam. Adjustment Intake B1 (act.)

23:14:03 Group 092: Camshaft Adjustment (Bank 2 Intake)
800 /min Engine Speed (G28)
25.9 % Cam. Adjustment Intake Bank 2
12.0°KW Cam. Adjustment Intake B2 (spec.)
14.0°KW Cam. Adjustment Intake B2 (act.)

23:14:03 Group 093: Camshaft Adjustment Adaptation
3.0°KW Phase Position Bank 1 Intake
-2.0°KW Phase Position Bank 2 Intake

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Address 01: Engine (8E0 910 560 A)

23:14:42 Group 091: Camshaft Adjustment (Bank 1 Intake)
760 /min Engine Speed (G28)
28.6 % Cam. Adjustment Intake Bank 1
12.0°KW Cam. Adjustment Intake B1 (spec.)
13.0°KW Cam. Adjustment Intake B1 (act.)

23:14:42 Group 092: Camshaft Adjustment (Bank 2 Intake)
760 /min Engine Speed (G28)
40.0 % Cam. Adjustment Intake Bank 2
12.0°KW Cam. Adjustment Intake B2 (spec.)
9.5°KW Cam. Adjustment Intake B2 (act.)

23:14:42 Group 093: Camshaft Adjustment Adaptation
3.0°KW Phase Position Bank 1 Intake
-2.0°KW Phase Position Bank 2 Intake

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Address 01: Engine (8E0 910 560 A)

23:14:57 Group 091: Camshaft Adjustment (Bank 1 Intake)
760 /min Engine Speed (G28)
20.4 % Cam. Adjustment Intake Bank 1
12.0°KW Cam. Adjustment Intake B1 (spec.)
15.0°KW Cam. Adjustment Intake B1 (act.)

23:14:57 Group 092: Camshaft Adjustment (Bank 2 Intake)
760 /min Engine Speed (G28)
29.4 % Cam. Adjustment Intake Bank 2
12.0°KW Cam. Adjustment Intake B2 (spec.)
13.0°KW Cam. Adjustment Intake B2 (act.)

23:14:57 Group 093: Camshaft Adjustment Adaptation
3.0°KW Phase Position Bank 1 Intake
-2.0°KW Phase Position Bank 2 Intake

[milk]

Hey what were you able to find out? Here's a log of idling with the VC off, measuring groups 91, 92, 93:



I think it looks okay but I still cannot pinpoint the source of my ticking noise. Full timing kit and head work included cutting new exhaust valve seats, lapping valves, new valve stem seals.

Dry crank with VC off:


Idling with VC off:

[2004B6S4]

interesting to see multiple other reports of this happening. I've reported the same thing with my car in other (old) threads. It's still sitting right now and hasn't been started up in years but I'm planning on getting back to work on it soon (yes I've say that every few months when I pop up on this forum and then I don't do it but this time I mean it!) There are several of us now who have had this problem after doing the timing job, where we get excessive noise and timing values jumping around only after the engine warms up (and sometimes at startup).

It would make sense that it's an oil delivery issue. There can be a lack of oil pressure at startup but then it builds up quickly to a high pressure, because oil pressure is highest when the oil is cold. That would explain why the noise isn't there when the engine is cold. As the engine/oil warms up, the oil pressure goes down, so any deficiencies in the supply of oil that drives the timing components will be more prevalent after the oil warms up. Since oil pressure seems normal in other parts of the engine I'm thinking a clogged port is likely. My guess is there's an oil port leading to either the timing chain tensioner or the mechanical adjuster, or both, which is partially blocked.



edit: I think it's actually just the tensioner itself, in my case. even though it's a new oem tensioner. I'll post results after I replace it, which will hopefully be within the next couple months

[milk]

So the timing values look bad? My thought was oil pressure as well but the tensioner looks better when it's idling. Head was completely disassembled and washed/cleaned

My current plan is to put the VC back on, drain and refill the oil, add some Marvel mystery oil this time, then let it warm up and go drive it for a while while logging groups 091, 092, 093

[2004B6S4]

sorry I wasn't commenting on your timing values, I was referring to where someone else said that their timing values were jumping all over the place on one bank. That's what I noticed on mine too. the timing values were normal (fluctuating a little bit above and below spec, but not by much) when the engine was cold and quiet, but after the engine warmed up and got noisy I'd notice one bank's timing was fluctuating up and down by A LOT more than it should.

[milk]

sorry I wasn't commenting on your timing values, I was referring to where someone else said that their timing values were jumping all over the place on one bank. That's what I noticed on mine too. the timing values were normal (fluctuating a little bit above and below spec, but not by much) when the engine was cold and quiet, but after the engine warmed up and got noisy I'd notice one bank's timing was fluctuating up and down by A LOT more than it should.

Could you comment on my timing values, por favor? And I don't know how running with the VC off affects timing adjustment

[Chuckb37]

It was me that said my values were bouncing. as long as they are close to spec then your electronic and mechanical adjusters are good. You can unplug your electronic adjusters,startup, and watch them sit at 0 in blocks 91 and 92.

Go to advanced measuring blocks and watch the graph of blocks 91 and 92. That's where it was clear that one bank was wandering. That's due to improper tension on the chain.

[2004B6S4]

Could you comment on my timing values, por favor? And I don't know how running with the VC off affects timing adjustment

so I just looked back at my logs and the one thing I can say is that your results don't look like mine. My idle was sitting steady at 760 and the cam adjustment spec was sitting at 12 degrees, and on the noisy head the actual cam adjustment would be as much as 8 degrees above or below the spec while the healthy side was no more than 3 degrees away from spec but typically less than 2.

I don't think your results look good honestly, but I don't know where to look based on that.
I think I would expect to see a larger difference between the spec and actual values when the spec is changing like yours frequently is, though. Your idle should be more stable, and when it is the cam adjustment spec should hold steady at 1 number instead of jumping up and down.

good luck figuring it out man, sucks to be having those issues after all that work

[milk]

I think some of the craziness is from logging with the valve cover off - it definitely doesn't idle as smooth when there's a big piece missing!
Just put it back together but am a little short on coolant so just going to run it with water again for a bit. Will start it up tomorrow, pray I can drive it, and update accordingly

[q_dubz]

I think some of the craziness is from logging with the valve cover off - it definitely doesn't idle as smooth when there's a big piece missing!
Just put it back together but am a little short on coolant so just going to run it with water again for a bit. Will start it up tomorrow, pray I can drive it, and update accordingly

did you block off the PCV system where it goes into the intake? Else you have a big vac leak.

[milk]

Mostly... not completely sealed.
Just need to add oil and coolant when I get home and will take it for a spin. Any hesitations? Log 91, 92, 93 again?

[2004B6S4]

when you rotate the engine by hand, at certain points in the rotation the camshaft will snap forwards and make a noise, and if the timing cover is off you'll see the tensioner moving a lot when this happens (I believe this is because the tensioner itself without added oil pressure isn't strong enough to dampen the forward jerking movements of the camshaft)... Is that the same noise you're hearing when the engine is running? It sounds to me like it could be but idk...

If that's what the noise is, it could be because of a lack of oil pressure in the tensioner. But since it happens all the time and not just when the oil is warmer and thinner, I would think it's a different issue than what Chuckb37 had (and what I think I have). So, rather than a bad tensioner maybe it's something up with the oil supply to your tensioner. I'm definitely no expert btw so take all my advice with a grain of salt, just throwing ideas out there

[ZimbutheMonkey]

Hey, this is a long shot but have you made sure that the solenoid isn't blocked?

I had a weird issue on mine where the cams went out of timing despite being able to pop the valve cover and manually lock the pin back by moving the cam w a triple square.

Anyway, all you do is take 2 wires (at least) or an old used pigtail that connects to the cam phasing solenoids and touch them in bursts to your car battery. If you hear a clear 'click' sound. Your solenoid is working. If you hear nothing or a muted click. just keep tapping away until it breaks loose.

The idea is that normally then only get 5V, when you shock them with 12V in bursts, it frees the solenoid. I learned it as a trick that the W8 guys used to use. I posted it here and no one had ever heard of it.

Anyway, it's worth a shot as that solenoid is controlling the entire oil supply to that timing control circuit.

Just search for the original thread by looking at my profile and checking my more recent threads

[q_dubz]

Hey, this is a long shot but have you made sure that the solenoid isn't blocked?

I had a weird issue on mine where the cams went out of timing despite being able to pop the valve cover and manually lock the pin back by moving the cam w a triple square.

Anyway, all you do is take 2 wires (at least) or an old used pigtail that connects to the cam phasing solenoids and touch them in bursts to your car battery. If you hear a clear 'click' sound. Your solenoid is working. If you hear nothing or a muted click. just keep tapping away until it breaks loose.

The idea is that normally then only get 5V, when you shock them with 12V in bursts, it frees the solenoid. I learned it as a trick that the W8 guys used to use. I posted it here and no one had ever heard of it.

Anyway, it's worth a shot as that solenoid is controlling the entire oil supply to that timing control circuit.

Just search for the original thread by looking at my profile and checking my more recent threads

The cams aren't out of time. Look at the charts. IF the solenoid was blocked you'd see wild variations in act vs req.

[VinnysS4]

Milk... any updates?

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[milk]

The cams aren't out of time. Look at the charts. IF the solenoid was blocked you'd see wild variations in act vs req.

Thanks for chiming in here on the logs - I didn't see anything that looked crazy off, but then again I don't really know what to look for other than cam phase being no more than +-6 and wanting the actual timing adj to be close to the specified timing adj. What else should I be logging or looking for?
Here is a link to a longer log file for groups 91, 92, 93 - it looks about the same. Phase adj for bank 2 is a steady -4. I calculated difference between specified and actual cam adjustment and overall it looks pretty good. The largest differences are coming off throttle and into neutral/idle.

Milk... any updates?

I wish! I've been trying every trick to bleed the p/s but still not getting it. One more attempt tomorrow before I get a new supply line and/or rebuild the pump. Anyone who wants to help with a P/S issue, head here!

[S46speed]

Updating to inform the problem is fixed. What had me stumped is that the second new chain tensioner I purchased was also defective. I did a small experiment by running 30psi air through the oil inlet on the tensioner. There are two outlets: one for the piston and the other to a nozzle that sprays oil out the opposite side. I think the nozzle sprays oil on the chain. Remove the piston and spring and run air through the inlet. You have to use a rubber tip to conform to the shape. If you plug the nozzle with your thumb you can hear a light flow of pulsed air from the piston side. This worked with the 150k mile old tensioner. Even with increasing pressure to 100psi I could get no flow from either new unit. I put the old one back in and it is fixed. So smooth and quiet.


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[VinnysS4]

Updating to inform the problem is fixed. What had me stumped is that the second new chain tensioner I purchased was also defective. I did a small experiment by running 30psi air through the oil inlet on the tensioner. There are two outlets: one for the piston and the other to a nozzle that sprays oil out the opposite side. I think the nozzle sprays oil on the chain. Remove the piston and spring and run air through the inlet. You have to use a rubber tip to conform to the shape. If you plug the nozzle with your thumb you can hear a light flow of pulsed air from the piston side. This worked with the 150k mile old tensioner. Even with increasing pressure to 100psi I could get no flow from either new unit. I put the old one back in and it is fixed. So smooth and quiet.


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Which tensioner was faulty? Glad you got it fixed! I love it when I tell people they have a defective "new part"...." buuuttt I just replaced it!" . Lol

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