Bad CPO Experience... Tuned, TD1

[G1ennR]

Get a cable and scan it yourself

I didn't realize that I can do that. Can you please elaborate? (or post a link about it?) What does the cable connect to, the OBD port & a laptop?

thanks

[14S4GWM]

I didn't realize that I can do that. Can you please elaborate? (or post a link about it?) What does the cable connect to, the OBD port & a laptop?

thanks

Buy the cable and the software is free, plenty of videos and info on their site and some how to's here on AZ.
https://store.ross-tech.com/shop/vchv2_ent/

[MadAboutCars]

Wow! Not good. Audi should be ashamed. This will cost them way more than putting right would have done.

[G1ennR]

Buy the cable and the software is free, plenty of videos and info on their site and some how to's here on AZ.
https://store.ross-tech.com/shop/vchv2_ent/

That's for the link. I bookmarked it in case I decide I need it later.

But, it's not just a "cable" and the software definitely isn't "free".

[14S4GWM]

That's for the link. I bookmarked it in case I decide I need it later.

But, it's not just a "cable" and the software definitely isn't "free".

Look at it how you want, either the cable is free and the software costs money or vice versa. Regardless it's what you need.

[LmG7119]

This is what happened with me and Subaru dealer.
We took delivery of our new Forester at the end of March of 2018. A couple of weeks after that we got a strange document from SOA with additional security Gold Plus warranty 3y/45K miles with $100 deductible purchased for us by the dealer at the beginning of April free of charge.

I thought maybe this is how SOA warranty work, but it seems that this may prevent me from buying a longer Gold plus warranty. You have to purchase Extended Subaru warranty before 3y/36K miles

Dealer purchased this without me knowing about it. This is in parallel of existing 3y/36K miles warranty that comes standard. The one that they purchased has $100 deductible and 3y/45K miles. Both would overlap for those 3 years.

I'm planning to buy a 10y/100K miles warranty, but this 3y/45K warranty would prevent me from buying it. I had to fight them to cancel their warranty. Of course, the answers were. "Our GM was generous to give it to you for free and it was on sale blah blah..."

I bought the warranty from out of state deal at a cost for $1500 vs $2700. He told me that this what dealers do so you can't buy a warranty from somebody else.

There are lots of sneaky dealers and nobody likes them.

[14S4GWM]

^ Suabarus last forever and hold their value, you don't need a super long warranty. We've had three and never had an issue. We also have a 2017 Forester fully loaded and love it with no issues.

[Audibot]

while leaving Subaru and I see an S4 next door at Audi.

Must be Audi Silver Spring. In which case, I'm sort of glad I've not purchased a car from them, and will be hesitant in the future. Their service team has been great to me so far, although I have an issue of my own with them right now I am trying to get resolved.

[OaborbaG]

I ran into a similar situation when I bought my car. They sold it to me, sold me the warranty, and I found out the car was tuned and TD1 already when I took it to my local dealer 1 week after I bought it for a check engine light and coolant leak. I bought the car 300 miles away from where I live. That dealer also hasnt reimbursed me for the Audi car they sold me for over double the price that I cancelled the next day, or paid off my trade in, it's been 7 weeks.

[Audibot]

I ran into a similar situation when I bought my car. They sold it to me, sold me the warranty, and I found out the car was tuned and TD1 already when I took it to my local dealer 1 week after I bought it for a check engine light and coolant leak. I bought the car 300 miles away from where I live. That dealer also hasnt reimbursed me for the Audi car they sold me for over double the price that I cancelled the next day, or paid off my trade in, it's been 7 weeks.

Sounds like grounds for a lawsuit...

[OaborbaG]

Sounds like grounds for a lawsuit...

Yeah, tell me about it. AudiCare credit still has not been received, almost 10 weeks after it was cancelled. Not to mention the omitted information about TD1

[2K158VA3]

I need some advice from the forum here. Last year in ~July I purchased a 2015 audi A3 with 17k miles from a local Audi Dealer as a CPO vehicle. Since that time, I have gone back to have replaced a defective steering rack (2 mos after I bought it), and leaking thermostat (At about the same time), which the dealer covered under warranty. Last week, my car with 22k miles on the clock, died completely at a stop light, and every time I tried to start it, it would die immediately. I had it towed to the dealer who informed me several days later that there was no compression in one of the cylinders. They also said that this does not fall within the CPE warranty because the car is tuned. I told them that I have never installed a tune to which they said they would take another look. Got a call back today saying that there is a tune on it. I told them that impossible unless they sold me the car with a tune. They said that they scanned the car when they got it, and there was no tune. They then also said that the tune being on the car showed up when they replaced the steering rack, which needs to be married to the car. How can this happen? The only thing I can think of is that when the dealer ran the initial check before they certified the vehicle the missed the tune? Is that possible? Needless to say, I'm at a loss here..

I cross posted this on another part of the forum, but after reading this thread, felt its relevant to add it here...

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url...9&share_type=t

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[Allthea]

Sounds like the same situation as this thread. They lied and sold you a tuned car at the CPO premium and are now lying, claiming you put the tune on the car and using it as a reason to get out of warranty work.

[2K158VA3]

Sounds like the same situation as this thread. They lied and sold you a tuned car at the CPO premium and are now lying, claiming you put the tune on the car and using it as a reason to get out of warranty work.

Indeed it does, that's why I was surprised to find an almost identical situation, which makes me believe that this Audi scan has faults. I wonder how many people across the country have an issue like this? I was thinking of starting a registry so we can track these. If there are enough, we can get an a good idea of how often it's happening. With the recent emissions scandal, what's not to say that there are faults in their software scan?

[Audibot]

Probably less of faults with the scan tool and more with people being dishonest, and management trying to minimize warranty work and/or bolster income by making you pay.

Definitely worth the effort to contact tuning companies to figure out if you have that tune, and when it was done. APR is probably the most logical start choice, and go from there.

With the emissions scandal, there weren't faults in the software--it was intentionally written to perform that way. (Funny enough, I know someone who caught this back in 2010/2011, when trying to tune a customer's car. Would get it tuned perfectly on the dyno then it would perform like crap on the street. Couldn't figure out why exactly so he just re-tuned everything on the street)

[2K158VA3]

Probably less of faults with the scan tool and more with people being dishonest, and management trying to minimize warranty work and/or bolster income by making you pay.

Definitely worth the effort to contact tuning companies to figure out if you have that tune, and when it was done. APR is probably the most logical start choice, and go from there.

With the emissions scandal, there weren't faults in the software--it was intentionally written to perform that way. (Funny enough, I know someone who caught this back in 2010/2011, when trying to tune a customer's car. Would get it tuned perfectly on the dyno then it would perform like crap on the street. Couldn't figure out why exactly so he just re-tuned everything on the street)

Yup, I've already contacted every Tuning company that has a tune for the 8v A3 and not one of them has records for the VIN of this car..
Companies I've contacted:
034Motorsports - Has not gotten back to me
APR - No records
Burger Tuning - Has not gotten back to me
EuroDyne - No records
GIAC - No records
Integrated Engineering - No records
Neuspeed - No records
Unitronic - No records

[Allthea]

Next thing would be to look for local (wherever it was from) shops that do custom Audi tunes.

[2K158VA3]

Next thing would be to look for local (wherever it was from) shops that do custom Audi tunes.

Already have. Went to 3 local shops that could have performed this work, again, no records of the VIN.

[Allthea]

You should get a second opinion on whether or not it's actually tuned...

[2K158VA3]

You should get a second opinion on whether or not it's actually tuned...

I'm going to go to the dealership on Monday or Tuesday to talk to whoever manages this particular Audi dealership. It's interesting looking back, because when I bought this car, I test drove an identical A3 at a dealer across the street. There are 2 reasons I bought this one, 1) I wanted to the CPO warranty, and 2) This one was more responsive, and I though car at the other dealership had some sort of problem. Now I realize it may have been because this car had a tune on it and the other car was stock...This is what makes me believe that this car had a tune on it from the beginning and it wasn't caught by the dealer. They used different hardware and software to scan the car before, when they didn't find the tune, and after, when they did find the tune.

Before (No Tune Found):
Hardware:
Hardware Platform: VAS 6150D (Panasonic Corp / VAS6150D)
Operating System: Windows 10
VCI Type: VAS 6154 (5123580)
VCI Connection Type: Wi-Fi (infrastructure)
Communication Path: CAN/K line

Software:
Offboard Diagnostic Information System Service: Offboard Diagnostic Information System Service Patch 4.3.3
Main Feature: 51.0.320

After (Tune Found):
Hardware:
Hardware Platform: STD PC (Dellinc / Latitude5590)
Operating System: Windows 10
VCI Type: VAS 6154 (5178587)
VCI Connection Type: Wi-Fi (infrastructure)
Communication Path: CAN/K line

Software:
Offboard Diagnostic Information System Service: Offboard Diagnostic Information System Service Patch 5.1.6
Main Feature: 89.5.70

I asked the dealer if they can re-scan with the previous configuration, but they said that the software updates automatically and they no longer have the old software...

[DiscoDan]

I work at a body shop near Audi Denver and our production manager actually used to work for them. He was a loyal employee with plenty of benefits lined up on paper such as a large pension, 401k, and more. He told me things went down and the dealership essentially cut a large amount of their loyal employees out as well as taking their rightful benefits! As soon as I saw your location of Colorado, I thought of Audi Denver, I've head these guys are scum.

Every experience I've had with Audi Denver has been good. On vehicle purchase #2 from them

[comingabriel]

Sorry to hear of your situation, I think I have seen of 2-3 instances on this forum of people who found themselves in a similar position in discovering the CPO car they purchased was tuned prior to the CPO process. I am not sure how those situations ended up being resolved but you may be able to find those posts with a bit of searching.

Some APR tunes (depending on the vehicle and the APR options chosen) have the ability to be switched between a performance mode and a stock mode, in any mode the software should show up on a dealership level scan. If the car was completely programmed back to stock at an APR distributor then a subsequent dealership level scan may possibly not detect it.

Best wishes for an amicable resolution!

Old post, but you can't switch off a flash count, which is 1st check AoA does with ODIS. To try a very mild tune for short period of time, and TD1 after such, was a shock to me, since it was flashed back to stock, yet still got TD1'd. Only way is by flash count. Dealerships can see the TD1 on ELSA, and it must have been listed, even if the rep said nothing showing, BS, cuz flash count doesn't go away, or on/off. I have really come to dislike Audi for this. No parts mod, stage 1 tune for a trial period, go back to stock and warranty gone at 4500 miles?! Was looking for a TT RS, but now Audi can KMA.

[Allthea]

@2K158VA3 that's a completely different hardware setup, not just software.

Given the issues VAG has with their scanning you think they wouldn't take this lightly

[2K158VA3]

@2K158VA3 that's a completely different hardware setup, not just software.

Given the issues VAG has with their scanning you think they wouldn't take this lightly

Agreed.

[2K158VA3]

After several weeks of research, I was pretty much convinced that my car had no tune, as I could not find any company that had any record of the vin, and I had contacted pretty much every company that makes a tune for the A3. After this I knew that there was an error in the process on either the dealers or Audi of USA's part. The problem was that every time I brought his fact up, the Audi dealer said that's not possible and their process if full proof. I asked the dealer to re-scan the car to see if there was an error, but they denied the request, saying that once the code is input into the system, it’s there, and a rescan would only show the same result. I of course brought up to the dealer that that may be true with the TD1 code, but I believe that the T23 code is something that can be manually added and is not produced as a result of the scan. The dealer said that the TD1 and T23 codes were interchangeable depending on the model of Audi, to which I said that’s simply not true, but I did not have any proof at that point. I called Audi USA (Already has an open case) and asked the Audi USA rep a simple question, "Can the T23 warranty code be added manually to the car’s profile in the Audi system". The Audi USA rep on the phone was not familiar with the T23 code and said they would look into it and call me back. That call back never happened. I also submitted this same question via my communication with Vincenzo F., the Audi Customer Experience rep on this forum, but again, no answer to this question. I have in fact submitted a 3-page detailed timeline to Audi USA/Vincenzo, which goes over every single visit to the dealer, as well as all research I have done in hopes that he can help find the root cause of this issue. The answer I got was they can corroborate the dealers account of the tune not being on the car when I bought it, and when it was made aware to their system. As such, Audi USA would not be assisting me with the cost of the repairs. I got no additional details, no answer to my T23 question, absolutely nothing of value.

At this same time, I was in communication with the VP of operations at the dealership and after about the third time, he did some deeper looking into the situation (Finally someone of integrity). What he discovered was that there was an error between what was submitted by the service writer and what was input at Audi USA for a warranty code after my previous dealer visit. What happened was that during my last visit, the service writer added a note that the suspension on my vehicle was altered, which results in a warranty code t40 or something similar, but somehow, according to the dealer, Audi USA had instead put in the T23 warranty key. The dealer said that with this new information the profile for my car would be updated, removing the T23 warranty Key and adding the warranty key for suspension modification in its place. From that point forward, the dealer said that the repair would be covered under warranty, ordered a new motor and proceeded with the replacement. A week later, now after a month of this stressful ordeal, I finally had my car back.

I’m not sure what the worst part of the story is here, the engine having a catastrophic failure at 24k miles or Audi saying that I’m responsible for the damage and calling me a liar when I told them that I did not tune the car. I never got an apology for any of this, was without a loaner for the 3 weeks while I was trying to prove my innocence, and now I just feel lucky to be out of this situation. If you're thinking of getting a newer Audi, think about that...No customer of any automotive brand should have to go through this stress, or be treated in this way.

[Allthea]

Wow that's fucked up but good on you for following through and getting that straightened out. I'm sure dealers do shit like this all the time and just expect people to pay

[mtarr07]

After several weeks of research, I was pretty much convinced that my car had no tune, as I could not find any company that had any record of the vin, and I had contacted pretty much every company that makes a tune for the A3. After this I knew that there was an error in the process on either the dealers or Audi of USA's part. The problem was that every time I brought his fact up, the Audi dealer said that's not possible and their process if full proof. I asked the dealer to re-scan the car to see if there was an error, but they denied the request, saying that once the code is input into the system, it’s there, and a rescan would only show the same result. I of course brought up to the dealer that that may be true with the TD1 code, but I believe that the T23 code is something that can be manually added and is not produced as a result of the scan. The dealer said that the TD1 and T23 codes were interchangeable depending on the model of Audi, to which I said that’s simply not true, but I did not have any proof at that point. I called Audi USA (Already has an open case) and asked the Audi USA rep a simple question, "Can the T23 warranty code be added manually to the car’s profile in the Audi system". The Audi USA rep on the phone was not familiar with the T23 code and said they would look into it and call me back. That call back never happened. I also submitted this same question via my communication with Vincenzo F., the Audi Customer Experience rep on this forum, but again, no answer to this question. I have in fact submitted a 3-page detailed timeline to Audi USA/Vincenzo, which goes over every single visit to the dealer, as well as all research I have done in hopes that he can help find the root cause of this issue. The answer I got was they can corroborate the dealers account of the tune not being on the car when I bought it, and when it was made aware to their system. As such, Audi USA would not be assisting me with the cost of the repairs. I got no additional details, no answer to my T23 question, absolutely nothing of value.

At this same time, I was in communication with the VP of operations at the dealership and after about the third time, he did some deeper looking into the situation (Finally someone of integrity). What he discovered was that there was an error between what was submitted by the service writer and what was input at Audi USA for a warranty code after my previous dealer visit. What happened was that during my last visit, the service writer added a note that the suspension on my vehicle was altered, which results in a warranty code t40 or something similar, but somehow, according to the dealer, Audi USA had instead put in the T23 warranty key. The dealer said that with this new information the profile for my car would be updated, removing the T23 warranty Key and adding the warranty key for suspension modification in its place. From that point forward, the dealer said that the repair would be covered under warranty, ordered a new motor and proceeded with the replacement. A week later, now after a month of this stressful ordeal, I finally had my car back.

I’m not sure what the worst part of the story is here, the engine having a catastrophic failure at 24k miles or Audi saying that I’m responsible for the damage and calling me a liar when I told them that I did not tune the car. I never got an apology for any of this, was without a loaner for the 3 weeks while I was trying to prove my innocence, and now I just feel lucky to be out of this situation. If you're thinking of getting a newer Audi, think about that...No customer of any automotive brand should have to go through this stress, or be treated in this way.

Unfortunately this is across the board with most dealerships regardless of brand. I don't mean to paint a generic picture, but I had (not even close to your degree of severity) a similar issue. I got rung around by a bunch of people at Audi of Tyson's that clearly dont know crap about their own vehicles. I proved them wrong with pictures and literature FROM AUDI. They had my car for a week, I had no loaner (luckily I have two cars), and never received an apology of any kind once it was finally sorted. If I hadn't been so adamant, I would have gotten screwed out of a lot of money. This is why I unfortunately always go in to the dealership and am very particular/ detail focused almost to an annoying degree. I really do hope THEIR cars blow up and THEY get screwed over by their own brand. At least I could have a chuckle.

[Russpilot]

Indeed it does, that's why I was surprised to find an almost identical situation, which makes me believe that this Audi scan has faults. I wonder how many people across the country have an issue like this? I was thinking of starting a registry so we can track these. If there are enough, we can get an a good idea of how often it's happening. With the recent emissions scandal, what's not to say that there are faults in their software scan?

Actually, if you can find that there are several instances of this, you may be able to find a lawyer who will initiate a class action lawsuit. Those are the only ones that would get the attention of AoA.

[2K158VA3]

After getting my car back from Audi with a new motor, thinking back on this experience and how I was treated, I am sad to say that I am no longer an Audi owner. As much as I liked the car itself, I decided to trade it in on a 2016 Lexus IS200t. That being said, I wanted to say thank you to everyone that has contributed to this thread. I wish you all happy motoring and hope you never have an experience like mine!

[Russpilot]

Sorry to see you go to a car from Asia, but completely understand considering the treatment. Good luck with the new car!

[2K158VA3]

Sorry to see you go to a car from Asia, but completely understand considering the treatment. Good luck with the new car!

Thanks RP, a bittersweet decision for sure. I'll miss the people for sure, so I may turn out to be the guy that brings a Lexus to an euro car meet :)

[SaigonDesign]

I had a similar experience regarding the hard sell tactics at Audi SS.

Was at the Subaru dealership getting my wife's car worked on (is there really so much cross-over with Subaru wives and Audi husbands?) and walked over the Audi SS.

I've expressed interest previously in a CPO A6 to their CPO guys and they had one in stock. The guy I talked wasn't in yet, so some other salesman went with me on the test drive.

Did the test drive, got the hard sell. Literally every used-car salesman tactic in the book.

When will these morons learn that you can't pressure people into buying a car they don't want? I had given the salesguy (the missing one) the exact specs of what I wanted, and this car didn't meet those.

After their high-pressure tactics, I sent off emails to 2 other dealerships with my specs. Let's see them duke it out between them.

[Masstech]

Add me to the list, bought a 2015 S3 from Day Audi in Pittsburgh, CPO with 23k miles in february 2018. Had it in for a recall and MMI update in fall 2019 at my local dealer. At this time, the car became TD1 flagged due to ECU modification and they chose not to mention anything to me because the recall work was still done. About a month ago I brought it in for some front suspension noise, front top strut mounts were found to be the issue and covered by CPO, but they told me they first needed to ensure it would be approved given the TD1 flag. They ultimately approved the work, along with some defroster flap motors that I indicated to them were throwing codes. However now I am left with a car that has a questionable history and needs to have extra approvals for any CPO work for the remainder of the CPO warranty. I have inquiries into AoA on how this affects the future of my warranty...

I did some research, car was APR stage II ECU/TCU tuned by GRDTuned in Chicago, intake, downpipe, catback exhaust, O2 spacer, lowering springs, wheel spacers and wheels 6 months into ownership. All removed and flashed back to stock before trading it in a year later. Unclear whether Day Audi noticed the ECU flash counter when they performed the "CPO inspection" or not, they got purchased by Lithia and closed down in early 2019.

Not exactly long term ownership service history criteria I would hope to be buying with a CPO car... Pretty sure I'm just gonna pay $150 to have the APR software transferred to me, stage 1 tune it, and "just send it" till I hit 100k in 2022 then dump it on a trade in...

[frankjcrow]

"Get a scan tool and scan it yourself!"

OK, my VCDS VAGCOM is arriving in the mail today. I have doubts that it will detect "TD1" as the Audi ODIS utility does. Or am I wrong about that?

I have zero experience using VCDS, so can someone tell me *exactly* what I should do or look for once I have it connected? (or a link to a thread on the TD1 scan subject?)

I have an A8 with an extended warranty (but not CPO) from Audi Rockville. I want to make sure that it has never been tuned and doesn't have TD1 or T23 or T-anything.

[19_hole]

VCDC from RossTech will not indicate a TD1.

[Audibot]

Can't you get the flash counter from VCDS though?

[frankjcrow]

Well, I wasn't wanting to call anyone's bluff or anything like that. I bet there is a way to get similar data using VCDS but I also bet that Audi has access to the underlying system that isn't available to anyone else.

I read somewhere that there is a flash log that is encrypted and cannot be deleted. The part about "cannot be deleted", I assume to mean "...by anyone but Audi."

It seems pretty fishy that all Audi has to do is make an evidence-free proclamation and you're done. If the measure is a changed counter or logs that indicate flashing, I'm gonna have to point out that -- by itself -- that is not evidence that a vehicle has been programmed to do anything for which it was not specifically engineered. And just the word alone, of an adversarial party with plenty to lose (i.e., Audi), seems to be somewhat less than what one would imagine as being "objective evidence that can be measured/evaluated".

I understand that, if the ECU/TCU has indeed been flashed, that is very likely to have been a modification outside of engineering specs. If there is a log, at least the time and date of flashing can and should be provided. At least that is something that can be evaluated or challenged, e.g., my car was in the Audi shop at the time of the alleged flashing (or whatever). If there is a log, then I'd also imagine that it contains something beyond time and date. I write software and am cyber security lead on a current project. I know how logging, even/especially encrypted logging works. If they go through the trouble to do all that, they don't just write out a log entry that says "flash counter +1". I guarantee it.

So Audi is getting away with murder in cases like these -- because they say so -- and to the tune of 10s of thousands of dollars. Somebody needs to call them out, e.g., produce all related log entries that indicate such flashing occurred, what values changed, and specifically call out which values were outside of the engineered specification. That is neither unreasonable nor onerous.

In any case, I can experiment and poke around with the VCDS. There is an awful lot of information in there and most of it appears to be un-deciphered. I'm not holding my breath but, if Audi wanted to be an "honest broker" in the situation, they'd give instructions on how a third party could duplicate their findings with commercially available equipment.

[ManyAudis]

If you have a VCDS and you are the original owner, post on the Ross-Tech website or send an email to support with the question. They are very responsive. One of the reason I recommend them to all Audi owners.

[SpideyTT!]

Buy the cable and the software is free, plenty of videos and info on their site and some how to's here on AZ.
https://store.ross-tech.com/shop/vchv2_ent/

Or get an OBDEleven. If you are only doing things casually, it should be sufficient.

[nitroracerRS]

Count me in with this group, except mine was the **original warranty** they wouldn't honor.

Audi dealer and AoA wouldn't warrant my busted cat converter because they did not physically get to diagnose the car until just after the warranty expiration (technicality due to Covid). HOWEVER, I had the issue diagnosed well within the warranty period by an Audi Master Guild Tech at an indy shop before showing up to the stealership. Nobody was questioning the diagnosis, or denying that it did in fact fall within the warranty coverage. They were just trying to stiff me anyway.

Took me a year, and use of the BBB, to get them to finally replace the dang thing. Which brings me to my question, as I read this entire thread and don't believe I saw it anywhere, but did anyone else with a similar problem go to the BBB? They were a huge help for me.