Results of measuring timing chain stretch via cam phaser adaptation.

[snaky69]

The shop that'll be doing the work told me they usually inspect the guides before swapping them out, if they aren't worn or brittle they leave them in. They'll also be checking for the cam bridge screen and will replace the cam bridge if it is missing. I'm thinking of telling them to remove it if it's still in there and let the oil filter pick up the slack so that I have one less thing to worry about.

I spoke to an ex Audi master tech yesterday that now runs his own business and he told me -4 to -6 is where failures start to happen in his personal experience, and recommended I get the chain and tensioner swapped out before reaching that point.

[Chillaxin]

I had a service manager at an Audi Dealer tell me that they just remove the screen if they find it broken when removing the bridge. It is a costly part to replace. Make sure they remove the black plastic section as well as account for the rest of the screen if it has failed. When I did mine, I found the screen had failed and used a pick to remove the rest of the screen section from the bore.

[Charles.waite]

Another Audi tech replied in here a year or so back and stated they also just remove the screen and leave the bridge as is. The bridge itself is expensive so it makes sense I guess. I replaced the bridge because I wasn’t aware that the screen could just be removed and mine was blown out and resting on the check ball. I bought the new bridge ahead of time just in case (and was going to return it if it wasn’t needed) but I figured better safe than sorry and just installed the new one. My mistake was tossing the old one in the trash. Whoops...

[mtroxel]

I had a service manager at an Audi Dealer tell me that they just remove the screen if they find it broken when removing the bridge.

My screen was gone. I just put the bridge back on w/o the screen. That was over 40,000 miles ago.

[Theiceman]

Another Audi tech replied in here a year or so back and stated they also just remove the screen and leave the bridge as is. The bridge itself is expensive so it makes sense I guess. I replaced the bridge because I wasn’t aware that the screen could just be removed and mine was blown out and resting on the check ball. I bought the new bridge ahead of time just in case (and was going to return it if it wasn’t needed) but I figured better safe than sorry and just installed the new one. My mistake was tossing the old one in the trash. Whoops...

Dude that's garage art !!

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[Theiceman]

My screen was gone. I just put the bridge back on w/o the screen. That was over 40,000 miles ago.

Me too.

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[Theiceman]

The shop that'll be doing the work told me they usually inspect the guides before swapping them out, if they aren't worn or brittle they leave them in. They'll also be checking for the cam bridge screen and will replace the cam bridge if it is missing. I'm thinking of telling them to remove it if it's still in there and let the oil filter pick up the slack so that I have one less thing to worry about.

I spoke to an ex Audi master tech yesterday that now runs his own business and he told me -4 to -6 is where failures start to happen in his personal experience, and recommended I get the chain and tensioner swapped out before reaching that point.

I would agree for cars on the old tensioner. At Those numbers the tensioner has to work harder.

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[audrobotic]

So with the updated tensioner - is it less important to replace it preemptively? Meaning - for B8.5 could you just wait for chain rattle or codes before replacing the chain setup (chain, tensioner, guides)? Since the chain stretch should be very gradual, and the tensioner is not a likely failure point.

[Theiceman]

So with the updated tensioner - is it less important to replace it preemptively? Meaning - for B8.5 could you just wait for chain rattle or codes before replacing the chain setup (chain, tensioner, guides)? Since the chain stretch should be very gradual, and the tensioner is not a likely failure point.

I don't think I would wait for chain rattle.
I was asking the other day looking for a new style tensioner that failed.
But I would not panic at 5


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[snaky69]

Just a quick follow up, timing has been done, all guides were nice and clean, I had the new tensioner but the old chain.

Tensioner was not all the way out, it was on the 9th detent so nearly all the way out. I did not think to grab a pic, sorry about that.

Cam bridge was fine, screen intact with no signs of failurre.

Also had two shocks and springs done with 4 wheel alignement, because one coil had broken in half in the middle.

So yeah, expensive bill. At least I'm set for a bit.

Will try and plug back into the car to update on the cam phaser numbers.

[old guy]

Maybe I missed it but what is the mileage on your engine?

[snaky69]

Maybe I missed it but what is the mileage on your engine?

143 000km.

[old guy]

Thanks. It gives me an idea as to what to look forward to. I also have a 2013 B8.5 6MT (CAEB) engine.

Some previous data points on mine:

45,000 miles: -2.26° 7th notch
55,000 miles: -2.46° 7th notch
60,000 miles: -2.55° 7th notch

[Chatchie]

^ I'm at 4.7 at 110,000 miles so it seems like a 2.7 around 60k seems right. These chains definitely stretch with mileage.

[YotoWerks]

I finally got to check my 2013 with the VAG COM, im at 101k with 3.14° and the motor has never been opened. I guess ill let her go another 20-30k before I go replacing parts.

[twixinthemix]

I'm at -4.6 on my 2013 CPMA with 76k.

[Chatchie]

I'm at -4.6 on my 2013 CPMA with 76k.

Weird we're about the same (4.7). We have pretty much the same power mod and my car has been tuned forever. I don't get it.

[maxud]

Weird we're about the same (4.7). We have pretty much the same power mod and my car has been tuned forever. I don't get it.

Whats your engine code? I have dealt with two CPMA engines, and they both seemed to have excessive phase adjustment. I wonder if different engines
do it at different rates due to internal design modifications.

[Charles.waite]

I think it has a lot to do with what sort of driving you do. Lots of cold starts from short trips, stop and go vs highway miles, etc.

My old Q5 was very well taken care of, was totally stock and had the new tensioner from the factory (2012 CAEB) but was at -7° at 65k miles (or whatever it was that I replaced it at, it’s been a few years). I’ve seen plenty of cars with half that phase adjustment at the same or more miles. I also had the cam bridge screen blow out so that was worrisome, but I don’t think the car was abused in any way. It’s possible the previous owner pushed oil changes past 10k but there’s no way to know and there wasn’t really any damage to the guides that would indicate excessive wear.

I think it’s just chain wear/stretch from tons of stop/start cycles. I believe the ECU logs start cycles, would be interesting to chart those with wear and see if any patterns emerge.

[morris39]

I think it has a lot to do with what sort of driving you do. Lots of cold starts from short trips, stop and go vs highway miles, etc.

I think it’s just chain wear/stretch from tons of stop/start cycles. I believe the ECU logs start cycles, would be interesting to chart those with wear and see if any patterns emerge.

Do you think it is routine start-stops or maybe the "jump on it" type of start that does the extra wear due to the higher dynamic loading? Maybe that degree of loading is not routinely tested by Audi (hard to do).
Definitely cold weather/short trips -> water in oil can contribute to wear. Th Owners manual hints but does not prescribe like some other brands like Toyota that the interval must be reduced a recommended amoint.

[Wartowski]

My vcds show information like this after 30 mins normal traffic drive, how is it look? I have A4 b8.5 160k km. Oem chain and tensioner as I know. Why those 2 information degrees is my car 15.x and other have 28.xxx?

I have newer car but same engine and results are:
Engine speed: 804 /min
Camshaft adjustment intake bank 1 specified 15.0°
Camshaft adjustment intake bank 1 actual 14.9°
Camshaft adaptation intake bank 1 phase position 0.7°
Coolant temperature at engine start 81.0 °C
Calculated oil temperature 78.0 °C

1.8 tfsi, 92k km, motor code: CJEB

[old guy]

I don't think you can compare the 1.8T to the 2.0T. Obviously the 1.8T camshaft specified adjustment is quite a few degrees less than on the 2.0T. With that being said, I would think a low adaptation value would be a good thing regardless of the engine.

[zizouomar]

I'm at -4.6 on my 2013 CPMA with 76k.

Exact same for me.

[Nandor69]

Just checked mine today after my drive home from work. -5.67 degrees. I have 121,199 miles on my car. And it has a newer style tensioner on it.
I’m going to be replace it of course. Are people also replacing the balancer chain, guides and tensioner as well?

It’s a CAEB engine

[Theiceman]

Just checked mine today after my drive home from work. -5.67 degrees. I have 121,199 miles on my car. And it has a newer style tensioner on it.
I’m going to be replace it of course. Are people also replacing the balancer chain, guides and tensioner as well?

It’s a CAEB engine

Yup.you fit the curve perfectly. . Your data is right on. We expect -5 at 100k.
I replaced it all. Only the timing chain, guides, pivot pins, and tensioner are absolutely necessary.
Timing the balance shafts along with everything else can be tricky but not difficult.
Those have guides and tensioner too. I did it all .
The only thing I would do different if I was to do again I would replace crank sprocket. The teeth were pretty worn on mine (130k)
I actually considered reusing the cam tensioner but thought the guys on this forum would drive to Canada just to punch me in the face of I did.


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[mtroxel]

I actually considered reusing the cam tensioner but thought the guys on this forum would drive to Canada just to punch me in the face of I did.

We'd never do that. I have a friend who lives in Hamilton. I'd just pay him to drive over hunt you down.

[Nandor69]

Has anyone actually had a failure and know what adaptation they were at. I guess my question is, how do we know what’s bad? Or is it more that the timing chain could jump time over actually failing and coming apart.
Thanks guys.

[Charles.waite]

The old tensioner randomly game apart and you lose all tension on the timing chain. So it skips and kablooey.

The new tensioner shouldn’t fail, and while the chains can still stretch, it’s unlikely that the chain itself will ever snap. The guides can still wear and break of course. And at a certain point the new tensioner could bottom out and allow the chain to slap around.

[Theiceman]

The old tensioner randomly game apart and you lose all tension on the timing chain. So it skips and kablooey.

The new tensioner shouldn’t fail, and while the chains can still stretch, it’s unlikely that the chain itself will ever snap. The guides can still wear and break of course. And at a certain point the new tensioner could bottom out and allow the chain to slap around.

I think that's exactly what would happen..I think you might actually get a code before it self destructs.
This is a theory because I can't find someone where the new tensioner failed yet.
The old tensioner is a ticking time bomb. Can go off at any time,

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[Nandor69]

That’s why I’m wondering. I know for a fact I have the new tensioner. If the adaptation is at -5.67 on my car is that really cause of concern? Wouldn’t I get some kind of light or something.
I am planing on doing a stage 2 tune with arp exhaust. So I’m deciding if I want to do the chains first or the tune and wait.

[old guy]

That’s why I’m wondering. I know for a fact I have the new tensioner. If the adaptation is at -5.67 on my car is that really cause of concern? Wouldn’t I get some kind of light or something.
I am planing on doing a stage 2 tune with arp exhaust. So I’m deciding if I want to do the chains first or the tune and wait.

I would recommend that you make a visual inspection of the tensioner. There are 11 notches of adjustment. If you get to the 11th notch you are out of adjustment so you will no longer be taking up chain slack and at some point the chain will start to jump links.

[Theiceman]

That’s why I’m wondering. I know for a fact I have the new tensioner. If the adaptation is at -5.67 on my car is that really cause of concern? Wouldn’t I get some kind of light or something.
I am planing on doing a stage 2 tune with arp exhaust. So I’m deciding if I want to do the chains first or the tune and wait.

i would not tune with it there.. i was at the 11th notch at 8.5

although i would not be too concerned.. i would not anger the tensioner gods by tuning it. i would address the stretched chain first.

[Nandor69]

Thanks everyone for their input. I’m glad I randomly came across this thread before I did The tune. I do want to keep the car around for at least 3-4 more years. So I’m going to do the chains and everything before I get the tune. Although, I do kind of think that it would be ok, I just don’t want to chance it. And it’s not nearly as expensive for all the parts as I thought it would be

[Nandor69]

How are the timing chain kits from ECS tuning? Are we getting authentic Audi parts from them? Or should I just buy the parts from Audipartsusa?

[mtroxel]

How are the timing chain kits from ECS tuning? Are we getting authentic Audi parts from them? Or should I just buy the parts from Audipartsusa?

Depends on which kit you get at ECS. I think the consensus around here is that given the drama we've seen around this design + the amount of time it takes to do this job, most don't want to risk saving a few bucks on aftermarket parts. I have a pair of Chinese LEDs in my reverse lights. I'd never go cheap for the system that can destroy your engine.

[Charles.waite]

I got the Ultimate timing chain kit from ECS and the Schwaben Timing Chain Tool Set as well. All the parts looked high quality and I believe were OEM or Genuine quality. I’d get their kit again, but be aware it still doesn’t have everything you might need. I bought the lower timing cover as well since I’d read that the new one had improved oil distribution channels (it did) and I was worried about bending it on removal (I didn’t but better safe than sorry). I also got a gasket for the upper timing cover to make sure it didn’t leak some bolts that weren’t included and a new crank pulley bolt. Little things that ECS didn’t include. And a few big things like the cam Bridge and lower timing cover I guess. I didn’t have the luxury of extended downtime so I’d rather buy everything I might need and not need it (and return it) than be unprepared and have to hope the dealer has the part in stock and for non-extortionate rates.

[Nandor69]

Getting all my parts from Audiusaparts. All the chains, guides, tensioners, seals and bolts are only going to be $480. That’s not including replacing the bottom. Pretty sure I’ll be able to get that off without damaging it. And my buddy got me a tube of the high dollar sealant from Audi.
I would say as far as people complaining about how expensive Audi maintenance is, this is coming out to be pretty cheap. I’m getting the tool kit from ecs tuning tho. I was going to get it through Assenmacher but the camshaft holders are on back order for months lol

[Novarider]

Getting all my parts from Audiusaparts. All the chains, guides, tensioners, seals and bolts are only going to be $480. That’s not including replacing the bottom. Pretty sure I’ll be able to get that off without damaging it. And my buddy got me a tube of the high dollar sealant from Audi.
I would say as far as people complaining about how expensive Audi maintenance is, this is coming out to be pretty cheap. I’m getting the tool kit from ecs tuning tho. I was going to get it through Assenmacher but the camshaft holders are on back order for months lol

Audi maintenence isn't bad if you do the work yourself. It's when you have to pay someone to do the work that it's expensive.

[19birel]

I think that's exactly what would happen..I think you might actually get a code before it self destructs.
This is a theory because I can't find someone where the new tensioner failed yet.
The old tensioner is a ticking time bomb. Can go off at any time,

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So I work at an Audi Porsche BMW dealership, and we had 2013 A5 Cabriolet come in with a check engine light ~95k miles. I happened to drive it around the campus to the Audi shop and it seemed to run perfectly fine, but they plugged it in and said the car had excessive timing chain stretch.

I wish I knew what the code was, but being a 2013 it should have the updated tensioner, so it throwing a CEL when it was on the verge of death aligns with your theory.

[maxud]

but they plugged it in and said the car had excessive timing chain stretch. I wish I knew what the code was, .....

Any chance you can find out?