Results of measuring timing chain stretch via cam phaser adaptation.

[Chatchie]

I had a visual check done by my indy shop last oil change and they said it was fine. How's got the highest # here? I saw 2.xx as a pretty low number

[old guy]

I had a visual check done by my indy shop last oil change and they said it was fine. How's got the highest # here? I saw 2.xx as a pretty low number

Do your own visual check and see how many notches of extension that you have.

[Chatchie]

Do your own visual check and see how many notches of extension that you have.

I'm going to. I'm gonna try to find and order the plug now.

[old guy]

[Militant-Grunt]

I had a visual check done by my indy shop last oil change and they said it was fine. How's got the highest # here? I saw 2.xx as a pretty low number

Dealership guideline is anything over -4 degree's we recommend a timing chain replacement, usually around 4.5-5 you will start seeing high pressure fuel faults due to the cam being out of time with the hpfp.

[Stazi]

Dealership guideline is anything over -4 degree's we recommend a timing chain replacement, usually around 4.5-5 you will start seeing high pressure fuel faults due to the cam being out of time with the hpfp.

That’s a very good tidbit. Makes sense!


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[old guy]

Dealership guideline is anything over -4 degree's we recommend a timing chain replacement, usually around 4.5-5 you will start seeing high pressure fuel faults due to the cam being out of time with the hpfp.

Excellent info!

Do you by chance know the relationship between the tensioner extension and the cam phase adjustment?

For example: My tensioner is in the 7th notch and my cam phase adjustment has gone from -2.26° to -2.55°. At some point it will go to the 8th notch but at what phase adjustment?

[A4x]

2011 A4 with 153000 km (95000 mi)
Tensioner (and chain) replaced at 122000 km (75800 mi) with updated part 06K109467K.

So only 20000 miles on this tensioner. Wish I had known about this measurement before I changed tensioners!!

[Theiceman]

2011 A4 with 153000 km (95000 mi)
Tensioner (and chain) replaced at 122000 km (75800 mi) with updated part 06K109467K.

So only 20000 miles on this tensioner. Wish I had known about this measurement before I changed tensioners!!

Looks great !!!!
Fully warmed up.??.

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[A4x]

Yes this was after a 30 mile highway commute.

[mtroxel]

If I have to do the tensioner I'll do it but one of the main reasons I bought a 8.5 was not to deal with this.

The cam phase adaptation is the ECU adjusting the timing to make up for chain stretch. So....tensioner might be beautiful, but the chain is stretching. -4.79° is not awful. We’ve had quite a few guys in the -7.x° range, even a couple in the -8’s as I recall. But I think the consensus is that in the -7’s its time to be nervous.

[Chatchie]

The cam phase adaptation is the ECU adjusting the timing to make up for chain stretch. So....tensioner might be beautiful, but the chain is stretching. -4.79° is not awful. We’ve had quite a few guys in the -7.x° range, even a couple in the -8’s as I recall. But I think the consensus is that in the -7’s its time to be nervous.

So basically the chain can stretch to a point where the tensioner can no longer apply pressure? Do we know the correction factor for this point?

I ordered the inspection plug and a new set a spark plugs for the hell of it. I'll report back when I'm able to get a picture of the tensioner.

[mtroxel]

So basically the chain can stretch to a point where the tensioner can no longer apply pressure?

Yes. At some point there's just not enough tensioner travel to keep a stretched chain tight. But I also see Militant-Grunt's point up in post #605

we have over 600 posts in this thread?

[Theiceman]

Dealership guideline is anything over -4 degree's we recommend a timing chain replacement, usually around 4.5-5 you will start seeing high pressure fuel faults due to the cam being out of time with the hpfp.

sorry i am calling total BS on this one ... there is absolutely no evidence i have seen to support that claim ... " usually' ? .. i would say almost NEVER .. especially at 4 degrees...

this can happen yes, but is usually with HPFP that run off a subsystem.. such as a chain that is driven off the cam which then drives a HPFP. this is not how our engines work ..

look at our own small survey of people who have been monitoring their phase adaption , all of them are well over 4 . i ran well over 8 and did not have a single issue HP fuel rail faults...
i might buy " very occasionally" and even that would be a stretch but certainly not "usually".
in fact audi does not have a spec and a dealership guideline is totally made up by them .. and if i made up a spec like that should be at least 5 .. 4 is only to generate more business and insight fear into owners to do big bill repairs..

i would even venture to say the average a4b8 out there not owned by an enthusiast is running well over 4 as the owners are oblivious ... i doubt any of them are having fuel pressure rail faults... if your statement was correct they would never show any timing codes.. they would just come in for HP fuel rail faults and the timing would be done ... sorry , i just cant agree with that one ...

[Charles.waite]

My Q5s stretch was -7° and I had zero codes.

And I absolutely guarantee the dealers near me would have recommended not touching the timing chains regardless of the cam phase number if there were no codes.

[Stazi]

My Q5s stretch was -7° and I had zero codes.

And I absolutely guarantee the dealers near me would have recommended not touching the timing chains regardless of the cam phase number if there were no codes.

Wow, that’s more that one whole chain link of stretch!


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[Theiceman]

Wow, that’s more that one whole chain link of stretch!


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this is 8 degrees...



so this chain is a loop so you are right .. it is close to one link if you doubled what you see here

and wow did i used to look like that ??? glad i started jogging ..

[Stazi]

Yep. I thought the calculation was 5.48° or something like that is a whole tooth difference on the sprocket. So more than that you are exceeding a whole links worth of chain.


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[Depthcharge]

PSA reminder to let your cars warm up and try not to drive spiritedly shortly after warm up.

[Theiceman]

the common mistake people make in this calculation is that it is expressed as degrees of crank .... so in degrees of cam it is actually half that .. i dont think 5 is a whole link ... admittedly though i have not done the calculation for a while... easy way to do it of course is take a toothed crank sprocket and mark off what your degrees is . i f i had a spare i would be able to tell you instantly with a protractor.

[old guy]

From post #4 and #6 in this thread:



Each tooth equals 7.826° (360°/46 teeth). If the chain has stretched 3/4 of 1 link it would equal .75*7.826° or 5.87°

Spawne32 indicated that his chain had stretched 3/4 of a link and his phase adjustment was out by 5.47°

It calculates out pretty close. So basically every 7.8° of phase adjustment equals a full link of chain wear.

[Chatchie]

I think I was worrying about this in the wrong way. I want by my indie shop and talked it over with them. I was worried about popping the motor due to tensioner failure as I was with my 2010 TSI. My mechanic didn't seem to concerned with the -4.7 reading I had. He was basically like "Yeah the chains are shitty and they stretch but your not gonna skip a tooth at -4.7".

I got really freaked out for a few days but I'm feeling better now. The car has 100k, it's gonna need a timing service soon.

[Theiceman]

Yup your mechanic is right on the money.

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[Chatchie]

Anyone know if this works on the 3.0t. I'm going to look at an S5 with a friend and this would be nice to check.

[Theiceman]

Dont think so. But if it does start a thread. I'm sure there will be a small segment interested.

Anyone know if this works on the 3.0t. I'm going to look at an S5 with a friend and this would be nice to check.

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[maxud]

2013 Q5 102,132 Miles
Engine Code: CPMA
Built 10/2012

Came here chasing 2 HPFP codes: P0088 and P053F

Took measurements of the car:
camshaft adjustment intake bank 1 - specified 28
camshaft adjustment intake bank 1 - actual 27.445
Camshaft adaptation intake bank 1 - phase -8.11

Measurements of warm driven car, but measurements taken at idle

Car threw CEL twice in last two months for above codes, but I erased the codes a week ago, and while today CEL was not on, the codes were present.
Needless to say, I told my sister in law (who owns the car) that it needs a timing chain job last month.
Thanks for informative thread

[Stazi]

2013 Q5 102,132 Miles
Engine Code: CPMA
Built 10/2012

Came here chasing 2 HPFP codes: P0088 and P053F

Took measurements of the car:
camshaft adjustment intake bank 1 - specified 28
camshaft adjustment intake bank 1 - actual 27.445
Camshaft adaptation intake bank 1 - phase -8.11

Measurements of warm driven car, but measurements taken at idle

Car threw CEL twice in last two months for above codes, but I erased the codes a week ago, and while today CEL was not on, the codes were present.
Needless to say, I told my sister in law (who owns the car) that it needs a timing chain job last month.
Thanks for informative thread

Damn.....that thing is a timebomb. Tell your sister to get it to a shop to change that chain IMMEDIATELY unless she wants to drop $6k on a dealer replaced motor!


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[Mister W]

Is the dangerous range values are the same with the upgraded tensioner? I have a 2013 Allroad and just got Obdeleven. Camshaft adapatation intake bank 1 phase position says -9.49. I dont know which tensioner version i have tho. I'm at 105 000 km. Just got a P2293 , P053F codes lately, i guess the stretching could do that.

[old guy]

Is the dangerous range values are the same with the upgraded tensioner? I have a 2013 Allroad and just got Obdeleven. Camshaft adapatation intake bank 1 phase position says -9.49. I dont know which tensioner version i have tho. I'm at 105 000 km. Just got a P2293 , P053F codes lately, i guess the stretching could do that.

I believe -9.49° is in dangerous territory regardless of which tensioner you have. Even with the "new" style tensioner you will run out of chain tension adjustment and it will just be a matter of time before the chain slack is great enough to start jumping the sprockets.

I suspect you are currently at that point.

[Stazi]

At over 5.5° you are already a whole sprocket tooth of stretch. So 9.5° is nearing 2 teeth.

You need to change that chain ASAP.


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[Charles.waite]

I’d agree with the above assessments. Get those chains replaced ASAP.

[19birel]

After learning that no CEL and my car running fine (at least seemingly) doesn't mean anything I'm now wanting to monitor this so can plan ahead in terms of replacement of the timing gear.

Is there anyway for me to check this without VCDS? Currently I have iOS and a Carista dongle, and was wondering if there was an app available that I could utilize with my current hardware. I'd just hate to dump $200-300 on a ross-tech cable when that money could go a long way in the actual replacement of these components.

[Charles.waite]

Not sure if the other apps have the ability to monitor the phase adaptation. Technically, there’s no reason they shouldn’t be able to, but I’m not sure if the apps have the correct PIDs to do it, at least I’ve not read anyone posting back that it’s possible.

Either way, I’d see if you can find a local guy who has VCDS who is willing to scan it and pull up the phase value. I know some people are more than happy to do simple things like that for a case of beer.

[Danzzo]

After learning that no CEL and my car running fine (at least seemingly) doesn't mean anything I'm now wanting to monitor this so can plan ahead in terms of replacement of the timing gear.

Is there anyway for me to check this without VCDS? Currently I have iOS and a Carista dongle, and was wondering if there was an app available that I could utilize with my current hardware. I'd just hate to dump $200-300 on a ross-tech cable when that money could go a long way in the actual replacement of these components.

I use the OBDEleven app to find out my camphase (-2.50). I'm in the philly area so if you were ever in the area I could check it out for ya via my OBD11 dongle.

[mtroxel]

I'm in the philly area so if you were ever in the area I could check it out for ya via my OBD11 dongle.

That's generous of you Danzzo. You know he's probably a Steelers fan don't you?

[19birel]

I use the OBDEleven app to find out my camphase (-2.50). I'm in the philly area so if you were ever in the area I could check it out for ya via my OBD11 dongle.

That's kind of you, if I'm in the area and haven't found a solution by then I'll let you know! Does OBDEleven require the use of their proprietary dongle, or might I be able to get my carista one to work with it?

That's generous of you Danzzo. You know he's probably a Steelers fan don't you?

Haha I would try to make some reference about the Steelers and Eagles but honestly I don't know a thing about football haha

[AutoUnionNH]

Thought I would follow-up on my February post earlier this year :

2009 A4 Avant
158k miles
Updated (latest rev) Tensioner with 6 ribs/teeth showing
-8.7 phase angle

After this I started to explore replacing the timing chain - getting estimates or deciding if I wanted to do it myself . Unfortunately at 165k miles in May the timing chain jumped bending all the valves resulting in no compression in any cylinder. This lead to pulling the head off the engine and rebuilding the top end – new valves, valve guides, timing chain, chain guides, etc. After putting it all back together I had cylinder misfire codes and a rough idle. I found the piston rings in three of the cylinders weren’t sealing 100% with compression around 120 to 140psi (cylinder walls are fine – no issues). I tried a variety of methods to get the rings to reseat but couldn’t get them hold full compression. When I started looking into the cost of rebuilding the bottom end and possibly bringing it to the latest revision (there have been many updates since 2009 – pistons, rings, larger wrist pins, connecting rods, etc), I decided the best path forward was the same as many have done – CPMB. I picked up a 45k mile CPMB from a wrecked ’17 Q5, converted it over to the CAEB configuration (many thanks to those who have posted how to do this). It runs so very smooth and I’m finding the gas mileage seems to have improved by 1 or 2mpg. I’m really happy to have the car up and running, however it’s been a long road to bring it back to life (not to mention doing this in the middle of winter). I have to laugh a little as I also own a ‘80’s VW and there’s a saying to the effect “Volkswagen – making owners into mechanics for over 50 years”. I think this saying can also apply to Audi’s ……

[AutoUnionNH]

One more note for the completeness -

The new motor is showing -0.29 phase angle and I did check, it has the latest rev tensioner with only 1 rib / tooth showing.

[maxud]

Damn.....that thing is a timebomb. Tell your sister to get it to a shop to change that chain IMMEDIATELY unless she wants to drop $6k on a dealer replaced motor!


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I did do that, her decision was to trade it in. Car is gone. I gotta say I was looking forward putting a chain on it.....

[maxud]

After learning that no CEL and my car running fine (at least seemingly) doesn't mean anything I'm now wanting to monitor this so can plan ahead in terms of replacement of the timing gear.

Is there anyway for me to check this without VCDS? Currently I have iOS and a Carista dongle, and was wondering if there was an app available that I could utilize with my current hardware. I'd just hate to dump $200-300 on a ross-tech cable when that money could go a long way in the actual replacement of these components.

I used Autel MaxiSys setup to look up the values, just in case anybody is interested. The setup is not economically viable for a individual DIYer, but has a ton of potential if you work on cars all the time.