Results of measuring timing chain stretch via cam phaser adaptation.

[old guy]

There are only 11 notches of adjustment. If you are in the 10th notch, you are pretty much at the limit. You should not put it off any longer.

When you start your engine the oil pressure pushes the cam chain tensioner against the chain. As the chain wears the slack is taken up by the tensioner. The spring clip position is indicative as to how far the tensioner must move to take up the slack.

You indicated that you were only showing 5 notches outside of the tensioner body. Keep in mind that you are observing the static position of the tensioner. Once you start the engine the tensioner will move to the point where the spring clip bottoms out on the inner right edge of the adjuster body.

In this condition you will observe 7 visible notches outside of the adjuster body. Time to replace!

[Theiceman]

you checked the solenoid but what does the valve look like.. ? sounds like your shuttle valve is struggling. sorry , in my business we call it a shuttle valve , someone can tell you what audi calls it im sure.

over 5 you can do the timing anytime. no rush but i would certainly look at scheduling it sooner than later.

i think your slow response is going to be that valve , or an intake cam with the phaser on it.

[mr_milo]

Hi guys thanks for the quick replies! Did my pictures show for the tensioner and measurements? I can sometimes see them and other times I can't, so I am confused if you can see them.

They are attached here: Tensioner.jpgCenter to Intake.jpgExhaust to Intake.jpg

The reason I ask is that I wonder what you think of the tensioner position. To me based on old guy's diagram I'm 5 notches outside the housing, but it looks like the clip is on the 10th notch. This confuses me since I haven't seen anyone else's pictures look to have such a difference. Based on adaptation and notches outside the housing I don't need to rush, but based on the clip I almost want to just park it and get parts ASAP.

Theiceman - I think you might be right about the valve. I checked it when I had it out and it seemed to move fine, but I decided to clean it out anyway. Seemed a little smoother this morning but I'm not sure. I think that issue and those code were due to my extended oil change schedule and adding oil freshened it up enough to allow the valve to perform better. Now that I have read a lot, I plan on doing them at a shorter interval from now on.

As far as parts, what are the thoughts? Genuine VW Audi only? Or would Febi Bilstein, Bremmen or Rein be OK? Especially that lower cover.... Looks like Elring, and Rein are half the cost, of the VW Audi or CRP covers.

[old guy]

If you rotate your engine by hand while observing the tensioner you will see it move back and forth as the cam loads and unloads the tensioner. When fully unloaded you will observe at least 7, possibly 8 notches outside of the adjuster body. Definitely time for replacement.

Refer back to the visual I provided. The lower arrow pointing to the right indicates that you observe the visible notches when the tensioner is pushed to the right. It is pretty much exactly your condition.

[Theiceman]

yeah it's time to replace no need to park it..but you can order your parts and get her done. many of the suppliers you listed are oem to Audi. but that said I put all Audi parts inside the block... just my way.

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[mr_milo]

Thanks guys! I am working on ordering the parts now. Think I am sticking with genuine parts for everything other than the lower cover.

Looks like my car didn't like me messing with the cam bridge... my adaptation is now -6.11.

Just one last question... I have the new tensioner but old chain and guides on a 2014 A4 built 07/13 with a CAED engine. Most the parts sites point me to the new chain and new design guides, but I read one post that said you shouldn't change the style of the guides. Is this correct or am I OK to update to the new guides & chain? Thx

UPDATE: So I chatted with ECS Tuning & FCP Euro about the different guides. ECS Tuning told me to stick with what is in my car and FCP Euro said my guides were superseded by the new guides. Then I went to my local Audi dealer's online parts site to order by my VIN... the website provides P/Ns for the old guides. So I call the dealer and they say the parts were superseded and gave me the P/Ns for the new guides. Hope the job goes easier than ordering parts.

[Theiceman]

2014 should have all the latest guides . but in general older cars with the chain guide between the two cams should not update to the new style .
probably just superceded part number

id be interested in which guides you are talking about and part numbers

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[mr_milo]

Sorry I somehow miss your post. The two guides that I was having issues with are:
Engine Timing Chain Guide, Part Number: 06H109469AP vs 06K109469M - This is the upper camshaft right side guide. I'm not sure which I have but I think it's the 06H109469AP.
Engine Timing Chain Guide (Upper), Part Number: 06H109469T vs 06K109469N. This is the top guide between the cam and I know I have the 06H109469T, as seen in my pictures, but the new longer one seems to be recommended.

The only other difference in parts that I saw was the front cover, Part Number: 06H109210AG vs 06K109210AF. I was again told that the 06K109210AF superseded the 06H109210AG. Other than these three parts everything else was the same.

I was told to get all the new parts so I should be getting the 06K109469M, 06K109469N and 06K109210AF. Parts should all be here tomorrow and then I start .

P.S. Any good guides on removing the front end rather than putting it in service position? Not sure if it's worth it but this job seem to be much more of a pain in the ass & costly than the timing belts on my B5. Would love to just get the front end out of the way if it's not too much more of a pain.

[Theiceman]

whoever is "recommending " the longer one between the cams has no clue what they are talking about and I sure hope it isn't Audi. that is why they still sell the two of them it has NOT been superceded and have different profiles.. use what the car came with.



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[mr_milo]

Oh shit! The parts just came today but I haven’t had a chance to look at them yet. 🤞 that they are the correct ones!

Actually it was both Royal Motors Audi in San Francisco and FCP Euro that told me those parts were superseded. I even told the guys at Royal Motors that their website had the old style parts listed for my car and he assured me that they were superseded and that the website wasn’t updated yet. 🤬

Only ECS Tuning correctly told me to use the old style parts since that was on my car.

[mr_milo]

Well chains where done. I was at -5.78. here and before and after pictures.

Are both these pictures from the same engine? The reason I ask is that it looks like you had the old style guides (P/N: 06H109469AP & 06H109469T) on the right (brown guides, before?) and have the new style guides (P/N: 06K109469M & 06K109469N) on the left (white guides, after?). I'm hearing they are not interchangeable but I don't understand why since everything else is the same.

I'm having this dilemma right now since my car came with the old style guides but almost everyone, including two different dealers now, are telling me to use the new style guides. If this is what you had done and it works, I would be excited to know it works, since I now have all the parts (with new guides) and was going to tackle it with weekend.

[Theiceman]

take a look at the guides closely... especially the one between cams, you will see the profiles are different. and will change timing between cams slightly.. will itvmskevs difference ? who knows ...but even .y dealer told me to not change.. I gave them vin, they gave me correct guides..

and you are saying part guy says they have not updated website yet ? from 2013 ?? when the new guides came out ?? .. very sad

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[mr_milo]

Thanks for all the help and trying to save me from making any mistakes. I really appreciate it!

I made a mistake with the information on Royal’s website. When I search by my VIN, it actually lists both parts and I saw the old part first, then called to clarify.

I have now checked every dealership in my area that has an online parts catalog and they all list both for my VIN, with “To 07/01/2013” on the old style and “From 07/01/2013” on the new style. It’s only when I call (called two dealerships now) which have both told me that my VIN is the new style, which matches their websites based on my 07/13 build date.

I’m the original owner and nothing has been changed since I purchased it with ~21 miles on it. It’s a 2014 A4 Quattro Manual Transmission with a CAED motor and a 07/13 build date which I bought in Oct. of 2013. Based on everything I can find I should have the new style guides but don’t.

Personally I think that Audi didn’t supersede the parts since they wanted differentiate between the 211HP & 220HP engines even though they are only different because of their ECU tune. Or maybe they need to be changed together and that’s why they keep the old guides. I believe the new style guides were designed to prevent chain skip by hugging the gears better but are otherwise the same, or maybe I’m wrong.

Since my car seems to call for the new parts and those are the parts I purchased, I’m going to try them out. I don’t think anyone has really compared them side by side and that’s what I plan to do. I’ve got the bumper off and just about everything disconnected to pull the front end off. Hope to get into it and compare the parts before early afternoon. If they are different, there is a dealer opened until 6pm tomorrow about an hour away where I can get the other guides. 🤞

[Theiceman]

yes if your vin calls for new parts use them..
you are correct in that the ecu timing and monitoring is designed for a particular hardware setup.. this is the biggest reason not to get it wrong...
you are all set .

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[mr_milo]

First off I wanted to give a big THANK YOU to Theiceman, old guy, Spawne32 and everyone else that helped build this knowledge base for timing chains!

I am happy to say my chains are replaced. In the end I purchased the Rein Automotive kit (P/N: CKS0229) from Rockauto.com. It came really complete with both chains, all guides, timing & balance chain tensioners, upper & lower covers, crankshaft bolt, and sealant. I just needed to purchase the oil chain tensioner and other hardware from my local VW dealer since they were MUCH cheaper than the Audi dealer. The Rein kit was $400, VW parts were $100 and about $50 in tools for a total of ~$550.... MUCH better than any shop or dealer in the area.

Here are before and after pictures of the chains & guides.

Old.jpgNew.jpg

As mentioned my car was a 2014 which should have had the updated guides but didn't. When I got the "proper" kit and the guides didn't match I was nervous but decided to tear it opened and compare. In the end I installed the updated guides and everything when well. At first I was a little disappointed when I first checked the adaptation since it was 1.17 at idle, and it took be a second to realize it was a +1.17 vs my -6.11. After warming it up and a short spirited drive the value was a respectable -0.64. I can't believe how much better the engine sounds and runs!

after warm up.jpg

So now for the new vs old guides. Personally I don't understand why Audi & VW are still selling the old guides. I did break the top guide pulling it off but super glued it so I could better compare them. First the long right guide, to me the new guide just has extensions to help prevent chain skip but otherwise they are exactly the same. See the compare pictures.

Right-1.jpgRight-2.jpgRight-3.jpg

The top guide was a little harder to compare but it too looked like it just had extensions to prevent chain skip. The new top guide was a little wider, had a deeper lip on the front edge and no lip on the rear edge, but otherwise seemed to me like a direct replacement with better chain skip prevention. See the compare pictures.

Top-4.jpgTop-3.jpgTop-2.jpgTop-1.jpg

Hope these pictures can help others. I could be wrong but to me it looks like the guides are exactly the same in the critical parameters and the new guides only add extensions to prevent chain skip. BUT the question still exists, if that is the case why would Audi & VW keep both part numbers rather than just supersede them?

[Theiceman]

just tell us you used a factory manual to set the balance shaft timing . sooo many get this wring.

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[mr_milo]

Funny you say that! This was one of my heart attack moments doing the chains, since at final check I thought I had the intake balance shaft 180 degree out of phase. As panic set in, I kept rotating the motor looking for those three little dots and just couldn't find them on the intake balance shaft gears.

My approach on the chains is the same as I do for timing belts where I mark the belt/chain and sprockets, then match those to the new belt/chain and reinstall to the marks I made. The timing chain was straight forward and my marks lined up with the factory sprocket marks. However on the balance chain, only two of my marks, crank & exhaust, lined up with the factory marks. I didn't notice the factory mark on the intake sprocket, so simply made my own mark on the sprocket from the chain mark. It wasn't until checking the marks & taking measurements after the prescribed two rotations that I notice the intake sprocket mark, and it was 180 degrees from my mark.

After rotating it a number of time looking for the three dots, I began to wonder if the car had been setup wrong from the factory. Then I looked and noticed the chain mark was two links ahead of the factory intake sprocket mark. I quickly checked the exhaust and the chain mark was also two links ahead of the exhaust sprocket and finally checked the crank where it was also two links ahead. Then I had a HUGE sigh of relief! Counted the mark to link position for the timing chain sprockets too and all was good!

Thank god I stuck to my tried and true marking process, or I could see were one could easily get that all messed up.

[Theiceman]

Funny you say that! This was one of my heart attack moments doing the chains, since at final check I thought I had the intake balance shaft 180 degree out of phase. As panic set in, I kept rotating the motor looking for those three little dots and just couldn't find them on the intake balance shaft gears.

My approach on the chains is the same as I do for timing belts where I mark the belt/chain and sprockets, then match those to the new belt/chain and reinstall to the marks I made. The timing chain was straight forward and my marks lined up with the factory sprocket marks. However on the balance chain, only two of my marks, crank & exhaust, lined up with the factory marks. I didn't notice the factory mark on the intake sprocket, so simply made my own mark on the sprocket from the chain mark. It wasn't until checking the marks & taking measurements after the prescribed two rotations that I notice the intake sprocket mark, and it was 180 degrees from my mark.

After rotating it a number of time looking for the three dots, I began to wonder if the car had been setup wrong from the factory. Then I looked and noticed the chain mark was two links ahead of the factory intake sprocket mark. I quickly checked the exhaust and the chain mark was also two links ahead of the exhaust sprocket and finally checked the crank where it was also two links ahead. Then I had a HUGE sigh of relief! Counted the mark to link position for the timing chain sprockets too and all was good!

Thank god I stuck to my tried and true marking process, or I could see were one could easily get that all messed up.

good for you ..great that you got it all done, those BS shacts are a common pit fall...you don't need your own marks if you understand the process , but on your first time, that is definitely the way to go


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[Chillaxin]

First off I wanted to give a big THANK YOU to Theiceman, old guy, Spawne32 and everyone else that helped build this knowledge base for timing chains!

I am happy to say my chains are replaced. In the end I purchased the Rein Automotive kit (P/N: CKS0229) from Rockauto.com. It came really complete with both chains, all guides, timing & balance chain tensioners, upper & lower covers, crankshaft bolt, and sealant. I just needed to purchase the oil chain tensioner and other hardware from my local VW dealer since they were MUCH cheaper than the Audi dealer. The Rein kit was $400, VW parts were $100 and about $50 in tools for a total of ~$550.... MUCH better than any shop or dealer in the area.

Here are before and after pictures of the chains & guides.

Old.jpgNew.jpg

As mentioned my car was a 2014 which should have had the updated guides but didn't. When I got the "proper" kit and the guides didn't match I was nervous but decided to tear it opened and compare. In the end I installed the updated guides and everything when well. At first I was a little disappointed when I first checked the adaptation since it was 1.17 at idle, and it took be a second to realize it was a +1.17 vs my -6.11. After warming it up and a short spirited drive the value was a respectable -0.64. I can't believe how much better the engine sounds and runs!

after warm up.jpg

So now for the new vs old guides. Personally I don't understand why Audi & VW are still selling the old guides. I did break the top guide pulling it off but super glued it so I could better compare them. First the long right guide, to me the new guide just has extensions to help prevent chain skip but otherwise they are exactly the same. See the compare pictures.

Right-1.jpgRight-2.jpgRight-3.jpg

The top guide was a little harder to compare but it too looked like it just had extensions to prevent chain skip. The new top guide was a little wider, had a deeper lip on the front edge and no lip on the rear edge, but otherwise seemed to me like a direct replacement with better chain skip prevention. See the compare pictures.

Top-4.jpgTop-3.jpgTop-2.jpgTop-1.jpg

Hope these pictures can help others. I could be wrong but to me it looks like the guides are exactly the same in the critical parameters and the new guides only add extensions to prevent chain skip. BUT the question still exists, if that is the case why would Audi & VW keep both part numbers rather than just supersede them?

Great info right here. Glad you got it done and everything is back together!

[KinkySlayer]

Not sure now; 1500 miles later and it's at 4.39 LOL

Car started, died, and then long cranked for maybe 5-7 sec then started up

12 month update! was at 130k miles -3.74 degrees previously

Now at 151,694 miles and cam phase went from 4.77, to 4.88, to 4.94 within a span of 5 mins. May be time for service lmao

[mr_milo]

Thanks again for all the information & support here! I love this community.

I also forgot to mention that I had the old 8 bolt lower cover & received the new 15 bolt cover with the kit. Confused why they used the 8 bolt since the block had all 15 bolt holes. It fit perfect and I hope it helps prevent a leak I think I had.

12 month update! was at 130k miles -3.74 degrees previously

Now at 151,694 miles and cam phase went from 4.77, to 4.88, to 4.94 within a span of 5 mins. May be time for service lmao

I would look at your tensioner and go from there. I was planning on letting mine go a little longer but after realizing I was at notch 10 of 11, I knew it was time.

[Theiceman]

personally I think .5-1 degree of phase shift is within the margin of error and will fluctuate based on all kinds of conditions, so I would not be that granular in looking at the data.. just look at orders of magnitude .. ie you want to be 4.. not 9.

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[Quattroking101]

For anyone in the Bay Area in California curious about doing this job, here's how much the shops charge.


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[Celiot29]

2013 A4 november 2012 build date updated tensioner old chain last measurement 190k miles was -4.58 i’m now at 207k going to measure agin next oil change. had it since new very well kept

been running 15w50 mobile synthetic for last 100k plus now running high mileage castrol 10w40.

thick oil is the key to why these numbers are so low on original equipment IMO. no long cranks engine smooth im guessing i will see something close to -5 next measurement.

question is with updated tensioner what is chance of total failure? in other words at 10k a year do i have another few years left at this rate of stretch given it was 4.47 at 178k and 4.58 at 190k?

[acamposac1]

Just checking in with my 2015 Audi A6 with 90,569 miles. No change since 80k miles, been sitting between 5-6.
Cam Adapt.PNG

[Theiceman]

^ so going to sit on it a while longer ? those new tensioners are proving pretty robust for sure.

Those numbers look about right for your mileage too ( not including the odd outlier obviously ) .. pretty close to what we are seeing, due at about 100K.

[Quattroking101]

^ so going to sit on it a while longer ? those new tensioners are proving pretty robust for sure.

Those numbers look about right for your mileage too ( not including the odd outlier obviously ) .. pretty close to what we are seeing, due at about 100K.

How come my b8 a4 did 114k miles at -3.5 degrees? It seemed unusually low


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[Theiceman]

How come my b8 a4 did 114k miles at -3.5 degrees? It seemed unusually low


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as i said there are always outliers, but in general terms we see at about 100K chains are due.

[acamposac1]

^ so going to sit on it a while longer ? those new tensioners are proving pretty robust for sure.

Those numbers look about right for your mileage too ( not including the odd outlier obviously ) .. pretty close to what we are seeing, due at about 100K.

Yea, going to just keep monitoring it for now. I thought by now it would be worse over a 10k mile gap.


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[Celiot29]

seriously -9.46 on updated tensioner and still no timing skip. that makes me feel real good about my 2013 A4 which was -4.58 at 190k last measurement all original equip. my guess is at 207k now my next measurement will be around -5 as i mentioned earlier. i wonder if i could take it right up to 300k without a timing job given how long it’s taken to get to -5. regardless when i see it approaching -7 i’ll be doing it as i haven’t see any instances where the updated tensioners catastrophically fail so i think -7 would still be safe

[Theiceman]

seriously -9.46 on updated tensioner and still no timing skip. that makes me feel real good about my 2013 A4 which was -4.58 at 190k last measurement all original equip. my guess is at 207k now my next measurement will be around -5 as i mentioned earlier. i wonder if i could take it right up to 300k without a timing job given how long it’s taken to get to -5. regardless when i see it approaching -7 i’ll be doing it as i haven’t see any instances where the updated tensioners catastrophically fail so i think -7 would still be safe

yeah I haven't heard of the new tensioner failing but ... we have had chains hitting the inside of the timing cover putting metal in the oil. there are pics on here of very grooved timing covers with sparkly oil .. so be aware

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[vosadrian]

Hi All,

I have a MY14 (built late 2013) Audi A4 B8.5 (AWD, DSG) in Australia with the EA888 Gen 3 2.0T Engine. I guess it is probably one of the first iterations of that engine. It has 180,000kms (~110,000 miles). The engine is quite rattly on cold start and even has a bit of knock at idle when warm. It seems to run great though when driving once warm. No fault codes. Because if the noise I did some googling and have come to suspect the timing chain. I have a Launch diangostic tool which seem to have access to the cam phaser adaption parameter:

1696129712141.png

I am a bit confused by the positive number. Is a value of +1.5 degrees OK?

I intend to check the timing tensioner shortly as directed in this thread, but I was just a bit confused by the reading I got for the phase adaption, so thought I would post here if anyone can provide advice.

Cheers!

[clettngx]

Long time, no post. I hope everyone is well.

Did an oil change today. Thought I'd check the tensioner value thru vcds. 80,000km. -2.88° 2014 with a 12/2013 engine build date.


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[clettngx]

Hi All,

I have a MY14 (built late 2013) Audi A4 B8.5 (AWD, DSG) in Australia with the EA888 Gen 3 2.0T Engine. I guess it is probably one of the first iterations of that engine. It has 180,000kms (~110,000 miles). The engine is quite rattly on cold start and even has a bit of knock at idle when warm. It seems to run great though when driving once warm. No fault codes. Because if the noise I did some googling and have come to suspect the timing chain. I have a Launch diangostic tool which seem to have access to the cam phaser adaption parameter:

1696129712141.png

I am a bit confused by the positive number. Is a value of +1.5 degrees OK?

I intend to check the timing tensioner shortly as directed in this thread, but I was just a bit confused by the reading I got for the phase adaption, so thought I would post here if anyone can provide advice.

Cheers!

Can't comment on that measurement,but you have pretty much the same car as me over here in Japan. I don't have the gen 3 engine though. :( I hope you change your dsg oil every 30k!

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[clettngx]

First off I wanted to give a big THANK YOU to Theiceman, old guy, Spawne32 and everyone else that helped build this knowledge base for timing chains!

I am happy to say my chains are replaced. In the end I purchased the Rein Automotive kit (P/N: CKS0229) from Rockauto.com. It came really complete with both chains, all guides, timing & balance chain tensioners, upper & lower covers, crankshaft bolt, and sealant. I just needed to purchase the oil chain tensioner and other hardware from my local VW dealer since they were MUCH cheaper than the Audi dealer. The Rein kit was $400, VW parts were $100 and about $50 in tools for a total of ~$550.... MUCH better than any shop or dealer in the area.

Here are before and after pictures of the chains & guides.

Old.jpgNew.jpg

As mentioned my car was a 2014 which should have had the updated guides but didn't. When I got the "proper" kit and the guides didn't match I was nervous but decided to tear it opened and compare. In the end I installed the updated guides and everything when well. At first I was a little disappointed when I first checked the adaptation since it was 1.17 at idle, and it took be a second to realize it was a +1.17 vs my -6.11. After warming it up and a short spirited drive the value was a respectable -0.64. I can't believe how much better the engine sounds and runs!

after warm up.jpg

So now for the new vs old guides. Personally I don't understand why Audi & VW are still selling the old guides. I did break the top guide pulling it off but super glued it so I could better compare them. First the long right guide, to me the new guide just has extensions to help prevent chain skip but otherwise they are exactly the same. See the compare pictures.

Right-1.jpgRight-2.jpgRight-3.jpg

The top guide was a little harder to compare but it too looked like it just had extensions to prevent chain skip. The new top guide was a little wider, had a deeper lip on the front edge and no lip on the rear edge, but otherwise seemed to me like a direct replacement with better chain skip prevention. See the compare pictures.

Top-4.jpgTop-3.jpgTop-2.jpgTop-1.jpg

Hope these pictures can help others. I could be wrong but to me it looks like the guides are exactly the same in the critical parameters and the new guides only add extensions to prevent chain skip. BUT the question still exists, if that is the case why would Audi & VW keep both part numbers rather than just supersede them?

So hang on, I'm confused here. One poster says don't use the updated guides if your vehicle doesn't already have them in, yet you decided to use them and they work. I understand about the build date recommendations, but like you said, you should have already had the new guides.

Parts are so confusing!



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[vosadrian]

Can't comment on that measurement,but you have pretty much the same car as me over here in Japan. I don't have the gen 3 engine though. :( I hope you change your dsg oil every 30k!

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Is that 30k mile or kms? I did change it at around 100k kms. I'm at 180k kms now and planning on doing it again around 200k kms. It does do some weird stuff on occasion, but it seems to have done that for the last 100k+ kms.

[clettngx]

Is that 30k mile or kms? I did change it at around 100k kms. I'm at 180k kms now and planning on doing it again around 200k kms. It does do some weird stuff on occasion, but it seems to have done that for the last 100k+ kms.

30,000km. I believe it should be done every 40k miles according to the manual. I just do mine early because the oil/filter is cheap enough here.

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[Theiceman]

Hi All,

I have a MY14 (built late 2013) Audi A4 B8.5 (AWD, DSG) in Australia with the EA888 Gen 3 2.0T Engine. I guess it is probably one of the first iterations of that engine. It has 180,000kms (~110,000 miles). The engine is quite rattly on cold start and even has a bit of knock at idle when warm. It seems to run great though when driving once warm. No fault codes. Because if the noise I did some googling and have come to suspect the timing chain. I have a Launch diangostic tool which seem to have access to the cam phaser adaption parameter:

1696129712141.png

I am a bit confused by the positive number. Is a value of +1.5 degrees OK?

I intend to check the timing tensioner shortly as directed in this thread, but I was just a bit confused by the reading I got for the phase adaption, so thought I would post here if anyone can provide advice.

Cheers!

probably need the b9 forum here to discuss the gen 3 engine

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[Celiot29]

thanks for the heads up i’ll be more inclined to change at -5 to -6 than pushing it to 7

[JoeMama]

Will a misfire cause adaptation value to change?