Results of measuring timing chain stretch via cam phaser adaptation.

[SNice]

Has anyone logged any performance data before and after the timing chain/tensioner job? Curious if there is any performance benefit to a smaller camshaft adaptation value?


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[silver_tt]

Haven't but I suspect there is not much performance difference. At higher adaptation values and more stretch the timing is running slightly retarded but at just a few degrees I'm not sure it's enough to be meaningful as far as a performance benefit from having it close to 0.

[old guy]

The adaptation value is simply what is needed to put the cam in the expected position. As long as the cam phaser can make the adjustment there should be no change in performance.

[Seal1968]

I'm shopping for parts...and note that ECS and others only show timing kits for the TSI ...not the TFSI engines.

My production date is Oct 2012.

What is the difference in parts? I assume maybe the cam bridge or one of the rails or something?

[Theiceman]

I'm shopping for parts...and note that ECS and others only show timing kits for the TSI ...not the TFSI engines.

My production date is Oct 2012.

What is the difference in parts? I assume maybe the cam bridge or one of the rails or something?

the nomenclature for these engines is an absolute nightmare .. its more about that than the parts. i think VW TSI is Audi TFSI or something like that...

there is however i think a couple of rail differences between some of the Audi engines as years go on .

[Seal1968]

Smac replied to me...the rails are different for production July 2013 and up...mine was made Oct 2012, so previous versions. All good, doing my homework now.

[Theiceman]

Smac replied to me...the rails are different for production July 2013 and up...mine was made Oct 2012, so previous versions. All good, doing my homework now.

if you need the timing tool kit i have it . Mine does not have crank holder though. If you need it let me know and we can connect.

[Seal1968]

Thanks, will let you know. Big job.

[Theiceman]

Thanks, will let you know. Big job.

the big job is getting the front end to where you can work on the car really, once you get the lower timing cover off its not too bad.

[elscotto80]

-0.13 degrees after replacement head and all other associated timing parts.

Motor has been running great, except for crappy fuel mileage. Previously I was 27-30mpg as I track all my fill ups in fuelly. Now I am seeing 23-25 mpg. Any thoughts? I've only ran two tanks total since I got it back in early October. PXL_20211204_174211408.jpg

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[Theiceman]

-0.13 degrees after replacement head and all other associated timing parts.

Motor has been running great, except for crappy fuel mileage. Previously I was 27-30mpg as I track all my fill ups in fuelly. Now I am seeing 23-25 mpg. Any thoughts? I've only ran two tanks total since I got it back in early October. PXL_20211204_174211408.jpg

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did you replace rings at all ? resistance due to new rings ? remember Audi went to the substandard rings to eek better fuel economy out of the car .. but to be honest i dont give a crap about fuel economy. i drive cars coz i like them and never even checked mine before and after. but this is a timing thread so i will leave it at that .

just the head causing lower economy im not sure.

[elscotto80]

did you replace rings at all ? resistance due to new rings ? remember Audi went to the substandard rings to eek better fuel economy out of the car .. but to be honest i dont give a crap about fuel economy. i drive cars coz i like them and never even checked mine before and after. but this is a timing thread so i will leave it at that .

just the head causing lower economy im not sure.

It had new pistons and rings installed a while ago under the original warranty. It's never burned oil since I've owned it since 2012.


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[Theiceman]

It had new pistons and rings installed a while ago under the original warranty. It's never burned oil since I've owned it since 2012.


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oh okay so not likely to be lower fuel consumption due to rings if you have had good mileage since then and have it drop after doing the head... what about throttle body adaption or soemthing like that ? do you think it might need redoing with the new head ? maybe its a characteristic of the new head , it is allowing more air / fuel to flow ?

a good one for sure

[elscotto80]

oh okay so not likely to be lower fuel consumption due to rings if you have had good mileage since then and have it drop after doing the head... what about throttle body adaption or soemthing like that ? do you think it might need redoing with the new head ? maybe its a characteristic of the new head , it is allowing more air / fuel to flow ?

a good one for sure

That's a good idea. I am not sure if the shop that completed the work did that. I can try that myself with VCDS.

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[mrg_B8TFSi]

Hello,
I'm curious if the following math is true? If the intake cam sprocket tooth is relative to 7.826° as you indicate (360/46 - and I always counted the teeth and I come up with 46) so I agree that each tooth = 7.826°. If I found that my Cam Adaptation is 6.88° refer to image does that mean the that I've stretched the following link distance? 7.826 (is 1 link) so 6.88/7.826 = 0.879 links If this is true than I need to do a complete chain/tensioner upgrade

Thanks - Mike

[silver_tt]

Yes, you need a new timing chain and tensioner (I would do the guides and everything in the timing case while you're in there). At 72K miles I am not surprised....

[Theiceman]

Hello,
I'm curious if the following math is true? If the intake cam sprocket tooth is relative to 7.826° as you indicate (360/46 - and I always counted the teeth and I come up with 46) so I agree that each tooth = 7.826°. If I found that my Cam Adaptation is 6.88° refer to image does that mean the that I've stretched the following link distance? 7.826 (is 1 link) so 6.88/7.826 = 0.879 links If this is true than I need to do a complete chain/tensioner upgrade

Thanks - Mike

Don't over think it. You need new chain,tensioner and guides.
If you are on an old style tensioner, I'd hurry.

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[mrg_B8TFSi]

Thanks ice,

Yeah I just bought the kit from FCPEuro, and I am am surprised at only 72k but I don't know the history of the car, I bought it at 68k. I actually just pulled the rubber inspection plug and its the upgraded tensioner (but looks like its on 7th click, yikes!!! I'll start taking off the front end this week, Yeah I'm not overthinking it, thanks.. I have a couple of questions for you, should I remove the cambridge oil screen, on the reinstall? I have heard that is a horrible design they continually blow out and do I need to drain the oil? I just put in Amsoil Euro 5W/40 and its the VW502.0 spec, I'd hate to drum that with only maybe 50miles on that oil. I don't have to drain it to remove the lower timing chain cover, the oil will all be in the pan right?

[Theiceman]

I did mine on a rebuild so i'm not sure about oil draining but i'm sure others will know.
If you have the new tensioner there is no reason to panic as it is very reliable. Do it in the summer if you are in a cold climate.
Yes remove screen..I'm thinking yours will be punched anyway when you take the cam bridge off.

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[MyDimeIsUp]

Thanks ice,

Yeah I just bought the kit from FCPEuro, and I am am surprised at only 72k but I don't know the history of the car, I bought it at 68k. I actually just pulled the rubber inspection plug and its the upgraded tensioner (but looks like its on 7th click, yikes!!! I'll start taking off the front end this week, Yeah I'm not overthinking it, thanks.. I have a couple of questions for you, should I remove the cambridge oil screen, on the reinstall? I have heard that is a horrible design they continually blow out and do I need to drain the oil? I just put in Amsoil Euro 5W/40 and its the VW502.0 spec, I'd hate to drum that with only maybe 50miles on that oil. I don't have to drain it to remove the lower timing chain cover, the oil will all be in the pan right?

Correct no need to drain oil at all. I also didn't replace my tensioner since my car is B8.5 it had the updated tensioner. I was sure to replace all cam chains/guides as well as balance shaft chains/guides. My screen was torn and was stuck in the head so I took the torn screen off and took a pair of pliers and pulled the entire screen out of the cambridge. I'd get rid of the thing since it has no use. We already have an oil filter on the engine. Same thing with the 4.0 twin turbo V8. Everyone removes the oil filter screen before it clogs and starves the turbo of oil.

[mrg_B8TFSi]

Thanks, yeah I was thinking the same thing, but I'm fairly new to this motor, I've been working on the 2.8L 5V way longer than the 2.0 TFSI.

[Theiceman]

You may want to replace the shoulder bolts the guides pivot on. They have a special coating and mine was all worn off . But I was at 130k miles.

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[MyDimeIsUp]

You may want to replace the shoulder bolts the guides pivot on. They have a special coating and mine was all worn off . But I was at 130k miles.

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Yeah I replaced all my bolts as well. I know technically in the manual they say they don't need to be replaced if removed, but I did so to be safe. I didn't but thread locker on but I'm not losing sleep.

[Theiceman]

Yeah I replaced all my bolts as well. I know technically in the manual they say they don't need to be replaced if removed, but I did so to be safe. I didn't but thread locker on but I'm not losing sleep.

I just torqued to spec.

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[19birel]

I'm doing job within the next couple days, I've read up quite a bit but any tips or tricks from those that have done it ?

[mrg_B8TFSi]

Yep the kit has the M10 triple squares for all the guides, gonna replace those and new tensioner bolts. Thanks


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[Theiceman]

Lower cover bends easy on removal and leaks. May want a replacement.

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[MyDimeIsUp]

Lower cover bends easy on removal and leaks. May want a replacement.

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Do get a replacement. I scored a genuine cover w/ Audi stamping on eBay for $49 w/ shipping and tax (I confirmed every which way that it is in fact genuine and there haven't been any problems). You can also get aftermarket URO and I think Febi from ECS for around $90 (or again check eBay). Trust me you don't want to have oil leaks because you're too cheap to buy a timing cover for ~$90. We had to take our brand new cover off because we didn't seal it correctly and wasted a good couple of hours attempting to not bend it while removing, scraping the oil silicone off, cleaning the cover and the block, and reinstalling and letting sit.

I'm doing job within the next couple days, I've read up quite a bit but any tips or tricks from those that have done it ?

If you're going to lock your existing tensioner have a lot of patience. It took my grandfather and I a combined 20mins just to get the lock slid into the tensioner. Between him using a pry bar and attempting to not score any of the aluminum and me getting the lock to slide on while also squeezing the spring clip so the tensioner can slide back... yeah get a bud to help or get the official T40243 tool for like $70+ (though I would rather spend an excruciating 20mins than $70+).

Make sure to cover the hole to the oil pan so if you drop something it doesn't go into the oil pan.

The cambridge is easy coming off but HOLY SHIT getting it back on. I'd say that was the most annoying thing of all. I found that using your 15 or 18mm spanner (depending on if you're moving intake or exhaust) to move the camshaft ever so slightly relieves the tension and allows you to slide the cambridge on, though it must be done VERY evenly on the intake and exhaust or else it'll get crooked and you need to pull it off.

Of course you've heard it before but REMOVE the oil screen from the cambridge. Just another failure point that may result in oil starvation.

A lot of people forget this. I'm sure you're fine if you don't do this but to be safe take your new chain and submerge it in oil before installing. I wouldn't want a completely dry chain running on plastic guides. I pre-oiled the guides and chains so there would be no risk of scraping on dry chains.

While you have the balance shaft chains removed, spin the balance shafts back and forth a tiny bit just to confirm that they move freely (balance shafts are known to sometimes seize and lock up the engine).

On that note while you're in there replace the balance shaft chains. NaptownTuner actually showed that the chains do stretch since he measured the balance shaft tensioner before and after replacing and I think the difference was around 8mm of extension.

And for shits and giggles if you have an endoscope you may be able to fish it through the hole in the block and possibly get a look at your piston rings (I left my endoscope at home when doing the job so unfortunately I can't confirm if this works or not). that's all I got atm of posting

[mrg_B8TFSi]

Wow thanks for all the detail there.. yeah I’ve been watching Naptown he’s an Audi genius.. I have the lower cover coming in the kit abs I’m gonna do the balance shafts chain.. doing everything since I’m opening it all up. Gonna spin the shafts and I’ll make sure those sprocket are timed . I’m not doing the oil pump chain or guide.. and I have that CTA kit for relieving the tensioner. Hardest part of this job will be removing the front clip.. I know people say service position is possible, but I can’t see myself putting that lower case on perfectly without having full access. Thanks again and any other tips or suggestions please keep them coming:)


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[Theiceman]

easiest way to get the cam bridge on is to have a buddy just rock the crank back and forth very slightly with a wrench as you slide it on .. chain forces the cams both ways and it slips on.

[19birel]

Lower cover bends easy on removal and leaks. May want a replacement.

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I read that would be a potential issue so I do have a replacement lower cover kit, I got the Febi one. I also bought a new gasket for the upper cover as well.

Do get a replacement. I scored a genuine cover w/ Audi stamping on eBay for $49 w/ shipping and tax (I confirmed every which way that it is in fact genuine and there haven't been any problems). You can also get aftermarket URO and I think Febi from ECS for around $90 (or again check eBay). Trust me you don't want to have oil leaks because you're too cheap to buy a timing cover for ~$90. We had to take our brand new cover off because we didn't seal it correctly and wasted a good couple of hours attempting to not bend it while removing, scraping the oil silicone off, cleaning the cover and the block, and reinstalling and letting sit.


If you're going to lock your existing tensioner have a lot of patience. It took my grandfather and I a combined 20mins just to get the lock slid into the tensioner. Between him using a pry bar and attempting to not score any of the aluminum and me getting the lock to slide on while also squeezing the spring clip so the tensioner can slide back... yeah get a bud to help or get the official T40243 tool for like $70+ (though I would rather spend an excruciating 20mins than $70+).

Make sure to cover the hole to the oil pan so if you drop something it doesn't go into the oil pan.

The cambridge is easy coming off but HOLY SHIT getting it back on. I'd say that was the most annoying thing of all. I found that using your 15 or 18mm spanner (depending on if you're moving intake or exhaust) to move the camshaft ever so slightly relieves the tension and allows you to slide the cambridge on, though it must be done VERY evenly on the intake and exhaust or else it'll get crooked and you need to pull it off.

Of course you've heard it before but REMOVE the oil screen from the cambridge. Just another failure point that may result in oil starvation.

A lot of people forget this. I'm sure you're fine if you don't do this but to be safe take your new chain and submerge it in oil before installing. I wouldn't want a completely dry chain running on plastic guides. I pre-oiled the guides and chains so there would be no risk of scraping on dry chains.

While you have the balance shaft chains removed, spin the balance shafts back and forth a tiny bit just to confirm that they move freely (balance shafts are known to sometimes seize and lock up the engine).

On that note while you're in there replace the balance shaft chains. NaptownTuner actually showed that the chains do stretch since he measured the balance shaft tensioner before and after replacing and I think the difference was around 8mm of extension.

And for shits and giggles if you have an endoscope you may be able to fish it through the hole in the block and possibly get a look at your piston rings (I left my endoscope at home when doing the job so unfortunately I can't confirm if this works or not). that's all I got atm of posting

I'll be sure to cover the oil pain and keep that in mind for reinstalling the cam bridge! Definitely planning to find and remove the oil screen too!

As far as the tensioner and lower chain are concerned I did purchase replacements for both. I got the Ultimate kit from ECS (the one with OEM parts) which I believe has all the guides/tensioners

Thanks for all the great advice guys! I'll post when I'm done with before and after readings of cam adaptation. I've also bought a new crank pulley as well, not sure how many people replace that but I figured the rubber in the stock one (which dampens vibrations) has probably begun to deteriorate so I have a Fluidampr waiting to go on.

EDIT: as far as the piston rings go I don't have a scope but fortunately my car doesn't really burn oil *knock on wood* at least never enough to require me to top off in between oil changes, so I'm not too worried there!

[Theiceman]

I can't stress enough how critical it is you get the crank sprocket on correctly and squarely . The alignment tooth " triangle" is not very pronounced and it's easy to get wrong.

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[MyDimeIsUp]

Wow thanks for all the detail there.. yeah I’ve been watching Naptown he’s an Audi genius.. I have the lower cover coming in the kit abs I’m gonna do the balance shafts chain.. doing everything since I’m opening it all up. Gonna spin the shafts and I’ll make sure those sprocket are timed . I’m not doing the oil pump chain or guide.. and I have that CTA kit for relieving the tensioner. Hardest part of this job will be removing the front clip.. I know people say service position is possible, but I can’t see myself putting that lower case on perfectly without having full access. Thanks again and any other tips or suggestions please keep them coming:)


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Yeah putting the cover on is a pain. We just put the car in service position (Unbolted the core support from the top and has it dropdown and angled forward supported with wood blocks on the bottom) we didn't have full access from the front and had to work from the top down. Smudged the silicone when putting the timing cover on and when we ran the car we discovered we were leaking a tiny bit of oil.

If you don't have the long bolts to slide the core support into service position, here is how I did mine:

[a4lownslow]

Here to save another one.. 2015 Q3 2.0T with 99k miles.

Timing value of 41 degrees

Safe to say this motor has jumped time but it is still a run and drive. Will be installing new timing components this weekend.Image1640992536.094995.jpgImage1640992560.981558.jpg


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[Theiceman]

Here to save another one.. 2015 Q3 2.0T with 99k miles.

Timing value of 41 degrees

Safe to say this motor has jumped time but it is still a run and drive. Will be installing new timing components this weekend.Image1640992536.094995.jpgImage1640992560.981558.jpg


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Not necessarily. Did you check the spool valve to see if it has popped ?
The one that is responsible for advancing the timing inside the cam bridge.

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[silver_tt]

Agree. Related to the spool valve, which controls the oil flow into the phaser, one of the few times I saw the phase position that high the problem was the that phaser on the intake camshaft was broken (probably an issue with the lock pin not engaging).

This is a good video that shows how it all works in detail:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juJ02ZCX9rw

[a4lownslow]

Not necessarily. Did you check the spool valve to see if it has popped ?
The one that is responsible for advancing the timing inside the cam bridge.

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I have not but I have experienced similar values on another A4 that had indeed jumped time. Will update later today..


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[a4lownslow]

Agree. Related to the spool valve, which controls the oil flow into the phaser, one of the few times I saw the phase position that high the problem was the that phaser on the intake camshaft was broken (probably an issue with the lock pin not engaging).

This is a good video that shows how it all works in detail:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juJ02ZCX9rw

Will take a look!


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[a4lownslow]

Fully extended

Image1641047005.187941.jpg


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[silver_tt]

So your chain is stretched for sure..... but with a phase position that high, 41.65 degrees, I still think there's probably something wrong related to the phasing. Let us know!