Results of measuring timing chain stretch via cam phaser adaptation.

[SDF1]

Need more data points!

Time to message everyone who has access to the phase data!

[elscotto80]

Been following this thread for a bit and decided to check my values. I had a timing service completed about 2 years ago - new tensioner, guides, etc, but no chain replacement. Shop said it was ok. Wish I had done the chain, but o well. I am at 28 degrees for cam adjustment and -2.99 degrees phase position. Seems like I am in ok shape based off what I gathered in this thread. Will keep an eye on it from time to time.

feel free to add my information above. Timing components (except chain) were replaced at 62,711 miles in May 2016, the above readings were collected at 100,000 (aprox). The tensioner listed when they replaced it all - 06H 109 467K. Hoping thats the newest revision?

[jfo]

06H 109 467K. Hoping thats the newest revision?

Yes, it still is. I believe that has been unchanged since about late 2014. 0

[elscotto80]

Yes, it still is. I believe that has been unchanged since about late 2014. 0

Sweet.

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[JBAeroEngineer]

I'll post my data this week. Going on 25k and 2 years with the updated parts.

[old guy]

Yes, it still is. I believe that has been unchanged since about late 2014. 0

My 2013 A5 has an October 2012 build date and it has the latest revision tensioner.

[Shoreaudi]

Here's my 2cents. 09 A4 2.0 ran a little rough at idle on startup and stumbled when passing (103k). Did a scan with Vag-com and the reading was at 6.75. Took my A4 in to the dealer to have the timing chain and tensioner done (Quote of 1600). Got a call today from the dealer about needing a new motor. The bottom bolt on the intake side T-chain guide backed out and from being loose damaged the block as well as the cover. I explained to the service person that AOA owed me a new motor. The history of the motor is, the head was off at around 28k (Before we owned it, bought at 30k), then the motor was out for new pistons and rings and the updated tensioner at 50k on AOA's dime. So my position is that an Audi Tech missed a bolt with the torque wrench. Now waiting to here.

[Shoreaudi]

FWIW they did confirm the chain and guides and tensioner were at their limits and needed to be done. Mechanic wanted to know if I wanted him to continue and finish T-chain service and see if it held!!!!

[mtroxel]

Mechanic wanted to know if I wanted him to continue and finish T-chain service and see if it held!!!!

I'd be curious what the block damage was. It seems you could just chase those threads and torque a guide bolt in there to see if it held. But maybe the lose bolt beat up more than just the threads....

[Shoreaudi]

I thought the same thing but the Tech made it sound like that area of the block was too gouged out. They wanted me to come in and look at it but it's 50 minutes one way and service would be closed before I could get there after work. Waiting on pics but I'm not holding my breath.

[WtA4WtQ5]

Checked mine today @ 70,300 miles. 6.25 degrees.

[Justin B8]

I'm at -4.92deg at 90,700 miles.

[DDPRESCOT]

Really want to measure my cam chain, stock 2013 allroad, 54k miles, no vag com, no obd11, only have carista adapter, any another live data app can measure this?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Audizine mobile app

[Futant]

-4.72 at 42,300 miles. Stock 2014 allroad.

[blgilles]

So to add some data to this thread, I'm at:
* 2009 B8 A4 2.0T
* 99,042 miles
* -3.05 Camshaft adaption phase position (bank 1)




This is for a fully-warmed motor. I bought this car recently, after having owned a MKV GTI, B5, and B7 A4s, and it's the most babied VW/Audi I've personally seen (I was considering buy a new Golf SportWagen, and this 2009 A4 was in better condition than the dealership's 2018 test-drive SportWagen). Given that everything was mint or nearly mint, I'm not overly surprised that the camshaft adaption is more commensurate with a car with fewer miles, given the data collected/presented here (albeit I was still elated to see this measurement).

(Given that it was so babied, it probably has wicked-bad carbon buildup.)

[mtroxel]

Given that everything was mint or nearly mint, I'm not overly surprised that the camshaft adaption is more commensurate with a car with fewer miles...

Yea -3.05° is not what we’ve come to expect from 99K miles. Did someone do a new chain at some point? I’d still take a look in the inspection hole. An 09 came with the crappy chain tensioner and I’d swap that out real soon.

[blgilles]

Thanks mtroxel. So good point, ya, the possibility exists that the chain/tensioner/etc. were replaced and simply aren't in the service history documents I have. The fact that the car shows 3-point-something for the Cam phase adjustment makes this probability higher.

Either way, agreed on checking the inspection hold; I am planning on checking the tensioner through it, probably tomorrow (just received the replacement plug this week (here) so that I can replace it when I take a peek.

And before measuring the cam phase, I was 100% set on replacing everything. Should it be the case that the chain/guides/etc. likely haven't been replaced, I still will.

Here's a quick stab at the parts list:

Parts:
Ultimate timing chain service kit: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-.../06h109158hkt/
Replacement Gasket for Upper Timing Chain Cover: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...et/06h103483c/
Timing Chain Cover, lower: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...r/06h109210ag/
Sealant for Lower Timing Chain Cover: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...0ml/d174003m2/
Crank Pulley Bolt: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...ach/wht001760/
(ECS says that one doesn't fit a B8 A4, but according to Audi, WHT001760 is the bolt I need for the Harmonic Balancer)
Probably replacement Accessory Serpentine Belt: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-continen...6b903137d~con/
Locking pin for the oil chain tensioner (and old-style cam chain tensioner): https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...in/t40011~oev/
Replacement coolant; using this kit: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-assemble.../g013a8jm1kt5/
Oil pump chain tensioner: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-bremmen-...6h109507m~brp/

Tools:
A kit for the whole project: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-schwaben.../020946sch01a/

Best,
New B8 Owner

[blgilles]

And I'll report back what I find from the inspection hole.

[Justin B8]

Here's a quick stab at the parts list:

Parts:
Ultimate timing chain service kit: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-.../06h109158hkt/
Replacement Gasket for Upper Timing Chain Cover: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...et/06h103483c/
Timing Chain Cover, lower: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...r/06h109210ag/
Sealant for Lower Timing Chain Cover: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...0ml/d174003m2/
Crank Pulley Bolt: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...ach/wht001760/
(ECS says that one doesn't fit a B8 A4, but according to Audi, WHT001760 is the bolt I need for the Harmonic Balancer)
Probably replacement Accessory Serpentine Belt: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-continen...6b903137d~con/
Locking pin for the oil chain tensioner (and old-style cam chain tensioner): https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...in/t40011~oev/
Replacement coolant; using this kit: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-assemble.../g013a8jm1kt5/
Oil pump chain tensioner: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-bremmen-...6h109507m~brp/

Tools:
A kit for the whole project: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-schwaben.../020946sch01a/

Best,
New B8 Owner

Just did this job, you'll also want:

Exhaust cam bolt
Cam adjustor magnet seal (in top cover)
Dipstick o-ring

I also replaced the belt, tensioner and idler.

[blgilles]

Just did this job, you'll also want:

Exhaust cam bolt
Cam adjustor magnet seal (in top cover)
Dipstick o-ring

I also replaced the belt, tensioner and idler.

Sweet, thanks Justin! So do you happen to have the part numbers you used? (I'll look in parallel but it's always nice to have a second source to make sure the wrong thing isn't ordered.)

Also, I did check the tensioner today. It's the original version (presumably the one that came with the car). The front end did not look like it had been opened, so I do think it's the original tensioner from the factory. Pictures below:






Notice it hasn't moved very far out, which is commensurate with the -3.05 degree cam phase adjustment.

[mtroxel]

Also, I did check the tensioner today. It's the original version (presumably the one that came with the car).

Yep. Worst tensioner you could have. Do it soon.............real soon.

[bhvrdr]

Sweet, thanks Justin! So do you happen to have the part numbers you used? (I'll look in parallel but it's always nice to have a second source to make sure the wrong thing isn't ordered.)

Also, I did check the tensioner today. It's the original version (presumably the one that came with the car). The front end did not look like it had been opened, so I do think it's the original tensioner from the factory. Pictures below:






Notice it hasn't moved very far out, which is commensurate with the -3.05 degree cam phase adjustment.

Thats friggin crazy. I think you got one of the only 2.0tsi timing chains and tensioners that are performing like they should on a car.

Mike

[blgilles]

Thats friggin crazy. I think you got one of the only 2.0tsi timing chains and tensioners that are performing like they should on a car.

Mike

Heh. Well the car looks like no one ever sat in it (let alone think about -driving- it). My partially-joking guess is that it was an AoA experiment vehicle and sat it's whole life on a dyno, with no-one in it, being controlled remotely by a computer. And probably only being tested at highway speeds, to be even nicer to it.

At least that's what it looks like based on it's condition (and now, engine).

And maybe if that's the case (I doubt that it is, I think the PO was just someone who super-baby's their cars), then maybe that's why the chain/tensioner are the way they are too. :-)

Either way, I'm planning on doing the tensioner, guides, and both the cam and balance-shaft chains soon (as even without problems, it seems the general consensus is to replace all that stuff every 100k, similar to a timing belt).

I'm still scared about pulling the whole front of the car off... the bumper alignment to the body is perfect right now, and I'm worried I won't be able to put it back that well. That, and well the 6,000 fasteners I'll have to catalog while taking it off.

Justin B8 - when you put yours back on, could you let me know how it fits, if you don't mind?

Best
- Owner of 'The Ghost' B8

P.S.: Maybe that'll be the name for this car... 'the ghost'. Given that both this car, and ghosts, are about equal probability to not exist. ;-)

[Justin B8]

Sweet, thanks Justin! So do you happen to have the part numbers you used?

N 105 724 03 Exhaust cam bolt (need 1)
N 105 540 05 Tensioner bolt (need 2)
WHT 003 463 Dipstick o-ring (need 1)
06H 103 483 D Front cover/magnet seal

Justin B8 - when you put yours back on, could you let me know how it fits, if you don't mind?

I'll let you be the judge Just be methodical and look for the "witness marks" where the hardware mates up, especially the lock carrier tops. I installed an RS style grille and etch primed+painted the bumper bar while it was apart. Whenever a project involves more than a dozen fasteners, I always use a box of ziplock baggies and label each one with a Sharpie. Takes a few seconds and saves endless headaches guessing what went where, especially if this ends up being a multi-day thing like it did for me. I had about 30 bags.

IMG_5492.jpg IMG_5423.jpg

Tip for removing the bumper: remove the headlight brackets BEFORE messing with the bumper. You have a world of room to remove the 10mm bolt at the front of the fender. You can also loosen (but don't remove) the two 10mm nuts at the bumper rear sides; the plastic mounting clip will drop down and then you can easily unclip the bumper from the bracket. I didn't even remove the wheels to get the bumper off, just turned them inward.

[blgilles]

Looks fantastic! Thanks for the tips, the pics, and the part numbers!

[Justin B8]

Looks fantastic! Thanks for the tips, the pics, and the part numbers!

No worries.

Besides fighting a bit with the cam bridge, two other things to be aware of... the AC condenser coil is a PITA to remove from the radiator bracket. The passenger side unclips fine, and the driver side does too, but the mounting bracket molded into the radiator interferes with the top refrigerant line. I had to trim about an 1/8in from the bottom front corner of the top bracket to get enough space to wiggle it out. Once out, just lay it to the side on something padded, no need to get fancy. Also, aligning the driver side balance shaft gears is tedious - only because the dots are TINY. I had to clean the balance shaft and the intermediate/driven gear with carb cleaner and get them DRY to find the pair of dots on the inner gear. Mine were more like " o.o " than " ... " when aligned.

[SDF1]

[blgilles]

No worries.

Besides fighting a bit with the cam bridge, two other things to be aware of... the AC condenser coil is a PITA to remove from the radiator bracket. The passenger side unclips fine, and the driver side does too, but the mounting bracket molded into the radiator interferes with the top refrigerant line. I had to trim about an 1/8in from the bottom front corner of the top bracket to get enough space to wiggle it out. Once out, just lay it to the side on something padded, no need to get fancy. Also, aligning the driver side balance shaft gears is tedious - only because the dots are TINY. I had to clean the balance shaft and the intermediate/driven gear with carb cleaner and get them DRY to find the pair of dots on the inner gear. Mine were more like " o.o " than " ... " when aligned.

Good to know. So I think I’m missing something on the driver-side balance shaft.

So you have to align the (USA) driver-side intermediate and balance gear with the o.o by rotating them together and then put the colored chain link on corresponding mark on the intermediate. Is that right?

I ask because some instructions say to not rotate the driver-side balance shafts... thoughts?


Also thanks SDF1 for the plot!

[elscotto80]

I added my data a month or so agoz it's in this thread somewhere...updated tensioner and other butts around 75k I think.

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[studioRS]

@SDF1 - yes thank you for the updated chart. Mine certainly will be the highest mileage making it to 147k (so far reported in here) on it's original tensioner.

Running like a top with the updated timing parts, love the power delivery on this engine at 151k now. I'll check in and post updates as it goes along.

Also fixed a P2188 code with running too rich at idle - changed the HPFP, cam follower, seal with new parts.

[Justin B8]

So you have to align the (USA) driver-side intermediate and balance gear with the o.o by rotating them together and then put the colored chain link on corresponding mark on the intermediate. Is that right?

Yes. The dot meshing indicates the alignment is correct, they are small and are out near the gear teeth.
The painted chain link gets installed above a different reference dot on the driven gear (it does not get installed over the three alignment dots)

Here's the service manual description:

https://workshop-manuals.com/audi/a4...iew/page_2791/

[n87]

You guys have me worried now... got an '09 at ~230000km...
Next thing on the long list....

[blgilles]

Awesome, thanks again Justin B8. Appreciate the link as well.

[blgilles]

You guys have me worried now... got an '09 at ~230000km...
Next thing on the long list....

n87 - have you already measured the cam phase adaption? We’d be curious to see it if you haven’t yet.

[n87]

n87 - have you already measured the cam phase adaption? We’d be curious to see it if you haven’t yet.

Not yet, My VCDS is crapping itself and I have a OBD11 coming with my new turbo.
Bear in mind that my car is on the other side of the planet, so it is probably +ve ;)

[jfo]

Another data point...

60,000 Miles -.80

[old guy]

Another data point...

60,000 Miles -.80

Is that with the engine at full operating temperature and the original chain and tensioner? That reading is incongruent with the other posted readings. Not saying it's wrong, it's just not a reading I would expect at 60K miles.

[Smac770]

CAEB, Aug 2008 build date, 172k miles now, but had all chains/tensioners/guides replaced at 132k.
As it turned out, the original tensioner had been replaced with the K rev back at 75k during the rings/pistons work.

VCDS reports camshaft adaptation - phase position as .29 degrees.
The other values seem to be the normal idle values: camshaft adjustment - value as 28 degrees and camshaft adjustment - activation as 6.25%

[jfo]

Is that with the engine at full operating temperature and the original chain and tensioner? That reading is incongruent with the other posted readings. Not saying it's wrong, it's just not a reading I would expect at 60K miles.

Original chain. The tensioner was done at about 35K miles along with stage 2 oil in 2015. This reading is consistent with several others taken at operating temp, starting last Dec. The first reading was about -0.75
The tensioner was showing 6 ribs(from the retaining clip) in March.

[cfthomson3]

I just picked up a 2009 A4 Quattro with the 2.0t and it has 155250 miles with a cam phase of -6.49 and I'm going to tackle the timing chain replacement tomorrow. Wish me luck. I've done a timing on an 1998 Mustang GT when I was in the navy
Back in the day. So hopefully it won't be too bad.