Results of measuring timing chain stretch via cam phaser adaptation.

[600ProX2]

Yea you can see tensioner extension through the inspection port.

Thanks

[Theiceman]

Thanks

exactly , but have a bit of rtv to reseal it , and you have to get to the insp port from underneath ... a bit of a pain but not the end of the world, i would do it next oil change

[old guy]

exactly , but have a bit of rty to reseal it , and you have to get to the insp port from underneath ... a bit of a pain but not the end of the world, i would do it next oil change

The plug is cheap. They tend to distort a little when you pry them out. Just order a new one along with your next oil change kit and replace it. I currently have two on the shelf.

[geneleven]

Hey everyone this is my first post here. Wanted to thank everyone for sharing their experiences as this thread is a huge help to knowing what to look for while doing this job!

I've been following this thread for a while, been excited to toss up my data. I bought '13 A5 used 6 months ago. I was at 182000km (~113000 miles) reading -4.73° on my CAEB build date May/12. I thought this was strange for the original chain, then when I opened it up, the chain had the paint markings on it. So I'm assuming this job has been done before by the previous owner (which makes sense since I'd expect more that -5 at this mileage based on everyone's values here)

Just finished the job today with new guides, tensioner, chain and cambridge. When warm at idle after a drive I'm reading -1.34°. Disappointing ....anyone had a similar issue with a higher (lower->more negative*) values after a rebuild? I was sure to use genuine parts and followed the service manual, I'm not new to working on engines in general, but I am new to VW.

Any input is appreciated.

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[dalmation53]

i'm not an expert on this engine yet like iceman is but according to what i have read -4 and -3 is on spec. you are reading -1 and some change is awesome.

Hey everyone this is my first post here. Wanted to thank everyone for sharing their experiences as this thread is a huge help to knowing what to look for while doing this job!

I've been following this thread for a while, been excited to toss up my data. I bought '13 A5 used 6 months ago. I was at 182000km (~113000 miles) reading -4.73° on my CAEB build date May/12. I thought this was strange for the original chain, then when I opened it up, the chain had the paint markings on it. So I'm assuming this job has been done before by the previous owner (which makes sense since I'd expect more that -5 at this mileage based on everyone's values here)

Just finished the job today with new guides, tensioner, chain and cambridge. When warm at idle after a drive I'm reading -1.34°. Disappointing ....anyone had a similar issue with a higher (lower->more negative*) values after a rebuild? I was sure to use genuine parts and followed the service manual, I'm not new to working on engines in general, but I am new to VW.

Any input is appreciated.

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[Theiceman]

Hey everyone this is my first post here. Wanted to thank everyone for sharing their experiences as this thread is a huge help to knowing what to look for while doing this job!

I've been following this thread for a while, been excited to toss up my data. I bought '13 A5 used 6 months ago. I was at 182000km (~113000 miles) reading -4.73° on my CAEB build date May/12. I thought this was strange for the original chain, then when I opened it up, the chain had the paint markings on it. So I'm assuming this job has been done before by the previous owner (which makes sense since I'd expect more that -5 at this mileage based on everyone's values here)

Just finished the job today with new guides, tensioner, chain and cambridge. When warm at idle after a drive I'm reading -1.34°. Disappointing ....anyone had a similar issue with a higher (lower->more negative*) values after a rebuild? I was sure to use genuine parts and followed the service manual, I'm not new to working on engines in general, but I am new to VW.

Any input is appreciated.

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-1.34 is outstanding. dont worry. some days it will be less some days it will be more. did you notice any wear in the cam/ crank sprocket teeth ? That car will fine for years as far as timing goes if you used quality parts. ..

[geneleven]

-1.34 is outstanding. dont worry. some days it will be less some days it will be more. did you notice any wear in the cam/ crank sprocket teeth ? That car will fine for years as far as timing goes if you used quality parts. ..

Thanks for the input everyone. I did note the sprockets and didn't see any unusual wear or anything, so I'm not too worried. Also did use genuine parts

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[gregbeene]

Yes sir I would much appreciate that for reference. Can never be too careful.

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/893070-2012-A4-QUATTRO-(CAEB)-TIMING-CHAIN-CAM-CRADLE-RESEAL-JOB?p=14114951#post14114951

Here's my write up on the timing job/cam cradle

[Toasterhoff]

I didn’t go through every single page of this thread yet but have gone through most of it and I think I have the highest reading I’ve seen. Not good haha! I have a 2013 Allroad that I bought about 7-8 months ago now and it has been throwing some fuel pressure codes since a few weeks after I got it but the car seemed to be running okay so I kept driving it but haven’t been driving it hard at all. Finally got around to buying an OBDEleven to check more specific codes and read the “Camshaft Adaptation” which has been from -9.5 to -10.5 roughly. Yikes! I have since stopped driving the car until I can get the time to do the chains. I have done a few MK4 1.8T timing belts in the past but have yet to do a timing chain on this motor so hopefully all goes well. Just thought I’d share how high my adaptation degrees were...


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[geneleven]

I didn’t go through every single page of this thread yet but have gone through most of it and I think I have the highest reading I’ve seen. Not good haha! I have a 2013 Allroad that I bought about 7-8 months ago now and it has been throwing some fuel pressure codes since a few weeks after I got it but the car seemed to be running okay so I kept driving it but haven’t been driving it hard at all. Finally got around to buying an OBDEleven to check more specific codes and read the “Camshaft Adaptation” which has been from -9.5 to -10.5 roughly. Yikes! I have since stopped driving the car until I can get the time to do the chains. I have done a few MK4 1.8T timing belts in the past but have yet to do a timing chain on this motor so hopefully all goes well. Just thought I’d share how high my adaptation degrees were...


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Yikes! Sorry to hear. As mentioned earlier in this thread, a skipped tooth is about -7.5°... so I wouldn't be surprised if your timing is off by a tooth. Did you check if you have the old or new style tensioner? If you skipped a tooth because of the old style tensioner and you change the tensioner and just retime it, I wonder if your new adaptation will only read -3°(10.5-7.5=3) which is some reasonable chain stretch

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[maxud]

I didn’t go through every single page of this thread yet but have gone through most of it and I think I have the highest reading I’ve seen. Not good haha! I have a 2013 Allroad that I bought about 7-8 months ago now and it has been throwing some fuel pressure codes since a few weeks after I got it but the car seemed to be running okay so I kept driving it but haven’t been driving it hard at all. Finally got around to buying an OBDEleven to check more specific codes and read the “Camshaft Adaptation” which has been from -9.5 to -10.5 roughly. Yikes! I have since stopped driving the car until I can get the time to do the chains. I have done a few MK4 1.8T timing belts in the past but have yet to do a timing chain on this motor so hopefully all goes well. Just thought I’d share how high my adaptation degrees were...
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Can you please share the codes that you got.

[Theiceman]

dont worry you did NOT skip a tooth, The later cars with the newer tensioners are much more forgiving, although that reading is very high .Order yourself your parts and tools and get cracking. your chain is just really stretched that's all. The one piece of advice i would give that i learned from my experience ( 2014 with 8.5 degrees ) If i were to do it again i would order two things that i did not order the first time.
1. The shoulder bolts that the guides pivot on , they have a wear surface and should be replaced.
2. I would replace the crank sprocket which i could see wear from the chain on the sprocket teeth.
3. i ordered the balance shaft tensioner and that was kind of a waste of money as nothing really goes wrong with these.

Other than that give yourself a good weekend and take your time.
make sure you do your research , find as many DIYs as you can , and watch the edge video on this, it is very good

[Toasterhoff]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I’m about to order the chain kit from ECS Tuning. Probably gonna stick with the Genuine VW/Audi? Is that what you guys would recommend? And ya I don’t think it’s skipped a tooth either. It’ll be funny to see the adaptation reading after the repair. I’ll probably try and do a carbon cleaning while I’m at it as well.


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[Toasterhoff]

And these are the codes I was getting. On my generic scanner it was showing up as P2293. And than the OBDEleven was showing these codes.


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[maxud]

And these are the codes I was getting. On my generic scanner it was showing up as P2293. And than the OBDEleven was showing these codes.

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If you go back couple of pages, I documented getting these exact codes on 2 cars. One got new timing chain, waiting for long term results from that one, job was paid for by aftermarket warranty co.
The other car was traded in. Both of these cars had excessive adaptation numbers as well.

[Theiceman]

Actually it was a good discussion point from about a year ago . I got into a bit with an "expert " who said you would get fuel pressure codes at anything past 4 degrees and his dealership sees that all the time. . i called BS, as if that was the case that would be the number one code seen here. i wondered at the time what the real number would be. I think you have answered that question for us and it makes perfect sense. .
The newer style tensioner has done its Job and needs to be retired along with the chain to the garage art hall of fame. It can no longer compensate how it needs to, and the fuel pressure spikes on the cam lobe are no longer fitting the profile the ecu needs to see.
so looks like we see fuel pressure codes, due to the "Out of phase' fuel pulses at about 10 degrees of adaption.
i would absolutely recommend OE parts for this project. This is not the place for chinesium alloys.
But i would recommend taking it apart ordering what you need from an OE supplier rather than a kit , unless time is too tight for you.
then you can get exact parts plus any extras you need in one shot.

oh here is a pic of my crank sprocket..

[Toasterhoff]

Ya I went ahead and just ordered the OEM kit from ECS Tuning. I’m gonna hold off on the crank sprocket until i take a look at it. And ya I would be hard pressed to say these codes are from something other than the chain stretch as the P.O. had already changed the HPFP.


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[b85er]

I just purchased a 2013 A4 build date 6/12 with 69k miles. According to the dealership, the tensioner is on the 7th or 8th notch. I used ODBEleven to check the camshaft adaptation and the valve was at -3.30 after a normal drive. The dealership quoted me $3,600 to replace the tensioner and belts. Feel free to add me to the list.

[mtroxel]

oh here is a pic of my crank sprocket..

Holy !! I've heard you talk about that but don't remember seeing the pic. I did mine at 85K miles and sure didn't see any wear like that. You've got built-in chain stretch there.

[Spawne32]

Holy !! I've heard you talk about that but don't remember seeing the pic. I did mine at 85K miles and sure didn't see any wear like that. You've got built-in chain stretch there.

I cannot even fathom how these are even issues. Ive heard of crank sprocket wear before on many engines but never to this degree and usually only with insanely high miles. Some of these engines, not just VW/Audi just wreak of piss poor quality materials and workmanship. I swear the age old saying of the more complicated the plumbing the easier it is to clog the drain is so true. I was watching a tear down video that humble mechanic posted and i can't believe how many places inside the engine they used plastic parts and those little mesh screens only for the plastic to either get brittle and break which would OBVIOUSLY happen, or the screens to get clogged up and cause catastrophic engine failure.

[Theiceman]

My mechanic buddy who helped me take the engine out and looked over the parts with me said " there is no way the correct oil is being run in this engine... " changed at Audi Dealer with castrol 5w40. hmmmmm . He rebuilds tractor trailer engines with over a million miles and although does not see RPMS like ours has NEVER seen wear like that.

[ps2cho]

This look OK for 31,900?
I checked it at 23,500 and it read -1.60 but I dont think the drive was long enough, this below is after 25-mile drive, most of which was on the freeway so fully at operating temps



I'm going to be tracking the oil fill level before each oil change as well, along with the # at the beginning so I can also track oil consumption. Currently absolutely zero usage.

[old guy]

I would go with the higher reading. But either way it looks really good!

[Charles.waite]

My mechanic buddy who helped me take the engine out and looked over the parts with me said " there is no way the correct oil is being run in this engine... " changed at Audi Dealer with castrol 5w40. hmmmmm . He rebuilds tractor trailer engines with over a million miles and although does not see RPMS like ours has NEVER seen wear like that.

Damn I don’t recall seeing that pic of the sprocket wear, that’s insane!

I wonder if it’s shitty manufacturing (bad metallurgy?) or just a bad design and material spec choices (aka deliberately choosing inferior metal to save a buck). Or maybe it’s something minor like the older style lower timing covers that don’t direct oil everywhere on the sprocket like the new ones do.

I wish I’d taken a picture of the differences between the old cover and the new cover. The new one had multiple spout points, presumably designed to drip oil over each chain on the sprocket instead of just one and hoping I splashed onto the others. I think lack of proper piling on that sprocket is a huge oversight on these engines.

But I’m also interested in you’re friends determination that the oil spec is wrong. I wonder if there’s a way to determine that that doesn’t involve multiple engines on test benches to simulate thousands of running miles...

[mtroxel]

I wish I’d taken a picture of the differences between the old cover and the new cover. The new one had multiple spout points, presumably designed to drip oil over each chain on the sprocket instead of just one and hoping I splashed onto the others. I think lack of proper piling on that sprocket is a huge oversight on these engines.

I had the same thought, that the new covers direct more oil drainage onto that sprocket...maybe for a reason. I have no illusions though. The fact that two of us had the same thought probably means two of us are dead F'n wrong.

[Theiceman]

Damn I don’t recall seeing that pic of the sprocket wear, that’s insane!

I wonder if it’s shitty manufacturing (bad metallurgy?) or just a bad design and material spec choices (aka deliberately choosing inferior metal to save a buck). Or maybe it’s something minor like the older style lower timing covers that don’t direct oil everywhere on the sprocket like the new ones do.

I wish I’d taken a picture of the differences between the old cover and the new cover. The new one had multiple spout points, presumably designed to drip oil over each chain on the sprocket instead of just one and hoping I splashed onto the others. I think lack of proper piling on that sprocket is a huge oversight on these engines.

But I’m also interested in you’re friends determination that the oil spec is wrong. I wonder if there’s a way to determine that that doesn’t involve multiple engines on test benches to simulate thousands of running miles...

Remember Charles Mine is a 2014 so im sure would be the new timing cover. But i might have pics if someone has a pic of what the new and old look like
I was reminded of his comments when someone posted a new oil. The comments about it were EXACTLY what my buddy ed was saying . something about its properties designed with high sheer designed for chain driven high reving motors.
I think a lot of your comments are probably pretty accurate . Along with manufacturers running the thinnest oil possible to assist in gas mileage.

1. engine tied to the cost of manufacture per unit rather than longevity.
2. Engine designed as none repairable throwaway part
3. Limit warranty costs with no consideration of beyond warranty.

[ps2cho]

I would go with the higher reading. But either way it looks really good!

Great thanks - the reason why is coolant temp was only 78C on the last one I saved, so engine wasn't fully warmed up hence why I think I should probably throw that value out.

[Theiceman]

Great thanks - the reason why is coolant temp was only 78C on the last one I saved, so engine wasn't fully warmed up hence why I think I should probably throw that value out.

you can be +/- a degree anytime so dont sweat it . Just be consistent in your checking procedure. ( I do mine after a drive )

[kapilamuni]

For information. Is there a similar measurement for B8 A4 with 2.0TDI engine?

Thanks.

[Theiceman]

For information. Is there a similar measurement for B8 A4 with 2.0TDI engine?

Thanks.

not that i am aware of.

[kapilamuni]

not that i am aware of.

Oh dear!
Is there a way that we tractor engined guys can check Cam chain (in fact it's a belt) wear?

[Theiceman]

Oh dear!
Is there a way that we tractor engined guys can check Cam chain (in fact it's a belt) wear?

if its a belt stretch isnt an issue, its snapping. just change it at requested intervals and you will be fine.

[Spawne32]

if its a belt stretch isnt an issue, its snapping. just change it at requested intervals and you will be fine.

Gates and Goodyear used to make kevlar racing belts, not sure if they still do though. Honestly id trust those for 100k miles or more over our timing chains.

[nofx1981]

Hey guys,
great thread here. I'm gearing up to do my timing chains, tensioners and guides. I have CAEB motor, with about 220 miles on it and a low oil pressure warning when warm. I also have a chattering or rattling sound on start-up for like 2-3 seconds and then it's gone. The car has a rebuilt title and questionable maintenance records. I figure it's time I get in there and do it. I'm sitting at around -3.01 degrees for camshaft phase position and I popped off the lower timing cover plug to get a look at the tensioner. It doesn't look like anything I've seen online. Any thoughts???

[Charles.waite]

That’s the new design with the wire holder.

Low pressure is worrisome, what are you going to do to address that? You’re likely going to want to pop the oil screen out if your cam bridge since it’s likely gone anyway.

[nofx1981]

That’s the new design with the wire holder.

Low pressure is worrisome, what are you going to do to address that? You’re likely going to want to pop the oil screen out if your cam bridge since it’s likely gone anyway.

Thanks for the reply. I'm glad it's the newer tensioner. And after a bit more reading it looks like I'm in ok shape for now at -3 degrees and on the 7th of 11 notches on the tensioner. I'm going to turn my attention to the oil pressure specifically. I plan on measuring actual oil pressure values to start with. Ideally it's just a bad sensor or break in the wiring. If not, I've read it can be the cam bridge or balance shaft. Maybe the oil pump? Could a leak in the timing cover or valve cover cause a drop in oil pressure?

[Theiceman]

Nope.
We have seen a few balance shafts cause this. That's where I would be putting my money after the switches
Big job.

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[dalmation53]

negative -3 degress is not bad. i'm at -4.67 with the old tensioner but since i'm replacing my pistons with the new ones for oil consumption i don't care if it blows up lol. i'm at 97k miles.

Hey guys,
great thread here. I'm gearing up to do my timing chains, tensioners and guides. I have CAEB motor, with about 220 miles on it and a low oil pressure warning when warm. I also have a chattering or rattling sound on start-up for like 2-3 seconds and then it's gone. The car has a rebuilt title and questionable maintenance records. I figure it's time I get in there and do it. I'm sitting at around -3.01 degrees for camshaft phase position and I popped off the lower timing cover plug to get a look at the tensioner. It doesn't look like anything I've seen online. Any thoughts???

[Theiceman]

negative -3 degress is not bad. i'm at -4.67 with the old tensioner but since i'm replacing my pistons with the new ones for oil consumption i don't care if it blows up lol. i'm at 97k miles.

ummmm.. you will care if it takes your valves with it ..... this has nothing to do with piston replacement... you could even end up needing a new head,
Piston replacement removes head, turbo, exhaust manifold and intake manifold as one unit,,, if you now have to take all that apart to fix bent valvesi it becomes a much bigger job.

[mtroxel]

^^^It can get worse than that.^^^ I bought an A6 with a broken timing belt years ago. Valve broke off, piston had no where to go so it rammed through the cyl wall and into the water jacket. Cyl full of coolant: entire motor was done.