...and thats all she wrote ....

[soje]

Remember, going 45 degrees before or after TDC on the cams is based on the the direction of the #1 piston as described in my previous post. It's not an optional decision. If the #1 piston is rising in the cylinder at the 90 degree crank position it is before TDC so the cams must be moved to 45 degrees before TDC before reconnecting the timing belt.

Dude you're awesome. I'd much rather put the chain on and know it's right. I've probably watched 20 different timing chain videos, so I know what to look for. I'm tired of guessing and jacking with trying to figure out if there's damage. Next step is your resyncing the cams/crank. I've probably read it 10 times by now, so I definitely won't forget to account for the direction the piston is moving. I'm not educated enough to judge, but it seems you have a vast knowledge base, and you're generous with it. I'm grateful. Thank you.


I realize I kinda sound like a bimbo, but I'm truly grateful to get solid info and answers.

[soje]

When I'm done with all of this, will there be any issues with the computer recognizing the crank-cam-timing correlation? Will I need to do anything with the computer?

[Brillo]

When I'm done with all of this, will there be any issues with the computer recognizing the crank-cam-timing correlation? Will I need to do anything with the computer?

Maybe EvolutionArmory can check me on this but I don't believe there will be any issues with the ECU. The only feedback to the ECU regarding cam or crankshaft rotational position is from the cam position sensor, and you will not have done anything that would adversly affect the accuracy/timing of that signal.

[Theiceman]

When I'm done with all of this, will there be any issues with the computer recognizing the crank-cam-timing correlation? Will I need to do anything with the computer?

No
If there is a code. Your timing is set wrong


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[Theiceman]

okay 23rd of march 2020. Time for an update . Considering 2 years ago the car was a complete write off in my mind and the VW tech not to bother fixing it as all the valves would be bent, I am happy to report the car is actually still on the road and plugging away well. car has about 320k Km now and other things are starting to go wrong, license plate light modules not working, a bit of a rattle at the back end and the speakers not working. But Mechanically she is still sound in the engine dept and the car owes both me and my son nothing. I told me son to start saving for a new car so he is not under water when this one eventually dies. But i must say she has served us well and the only issue on the books currently is a new valve cover gasket. Other than that its bone dry.
It still makes decent power is sure footed and a LOT more fun to drive that my B8.5.

[Brillo]

Well, good news Theiceman. Well done - nice to hear when things go right. You've given us hope!!

So, when are we going to hear back from soje?

[Theiceman]

Good question, let me grab my calendar

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[Hockeydad1519]

IÂ’m kinda conflicted, I used astrals vid for my info and IÂ’ve done the timing 3 times as I keep getting high phase position numbers, astral says count 18-19 pins and put a mark between them, but on the mock up pick it shows 19-20, is astrals info wrong ? IÂ’m thinking this may be my problem. ?

- - - Updated - - -

IÂ’m kinda conflicted, I used astrals vid for my info and IÂ’ve done the timing 3 times as I keep getting high phase position numbers, astral says count 18-19 pins and put a mark between them, but on the mock up pick it shows 19-20, is astrals info wrong ? IÂ’m thinking this may be my problem. ?

[Theiceman]

The mock up.is exactly right..just remember that is over the top not underneath. Also his are " pins between them" mine are the gaps they sit in so likely the same anyway. You can't sit a tooth sproket on a pin, that's why I provided the pic.

If you did not do it like my mock up you will have high phase shift and likely throw a code.
And your lobes on the cam for cylinder four will not be perfectly symmetrical while at TDC.

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[Hockeydad1519]

The mock up.is exactly right..just remember that is over the top not underneath. Also his are " pins between them" mine are the gaps they sit in so likely the same anyway. You can't sit a tooth sproket on a pin, that's why I provided the pic.

If you did not do it like my mock up you will have high phase shift and likely throw a code.
And your lobes for cam four will not be perfectly symmetrical while at TDC.

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Yeah I counted his way and your way and they didn’t seem the same , but yes I’m having high phase numbers and slight rough idle. I’m gonna dig into it again. Thanks for your quick reply. I’ll post my results. Thanks again.

[Theiceman]

Yeah I counted his way and your way and they didn’t seem the same , but yes I’m having high phase numbers and slight rough idle. I’m gonna dig into it again. Thanks for your quick reply. I’ll post my results. Thanks again.

if you did not watch the video about the French Canadian mechanic who got it wrong you should watch that , it is an excellent video and he carefully shows you what he did wrong and how he corrected it. I think its in this thread somewhere. if you cant find it let me know. I think however it idles pretty good so your issue might be somewhere else like a vacuum leak.

Bring it to tdc and check those came lobes.

[Hockeydad1519]

if you did not watch the video about the French Canadian mechanic who got it wrong you should watch that , it is an excellent video and he carefully shows you what he did wrong and how he corrected it. I think its in this thread somewhere. if you cant find it let me know. I think however it idles pretty good so your issue might be somewhere else like a vacuum leak.

Bring it to tdc and check those came lobes.

Just watched his video, he did have a fault code and I do not, also my timing degree is almost exactly like his is that he showed on vcds. Wish he would of showed phase position as now mine is at -9

[Theiceman]

Just watched his video, he did have a fault code and I do not, also my timing degree is almost exactly like his is that he showed on vcds. Wish he would of showed phase position as now mine is at -9

then i would say your timing is fine, go find the hose you left off thats causing a vac leak .. :)

maybe your pcv is creating an issue ?

[Silicon Voodoo]

I'm next inline to do that job. I have a A3 8P with BWA engine code.

It sorts of sound like a potatoe right now at idle, with some occasional vibrations and occasional diesel sound. (though no misfire registered in OBD counters read for smartphone apps. maybe it's loose balance shafts, or the bimass flywheel).
I'm considering that ECS kit here: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-assemble...06d109229bkt2/
is this kit ok? I'm worried about the INA cam follower. I want a Febi-Bilstein, because the one I have now is INA, and it was lighter than the OEM one I removed. I have a suspicion it's the culprit for part of the noise.
The car inspection garage put oil additive and the sound has improved.

For the chain job change, I'm stressed about:
- the polydrive bolt
- the 3 round seals on the control valve conduit
- do I need sealant as well as the gasket for the chain cover?
- how many links are there supposed to be between the cam-phaser notch, and the tiny mark on the intake shaft sprocket? I read the mark is supposed to sit between link 9 and 10.
- do you need a long extension to crank the engine?
- I'd prefer to sit the valve cover gasket with a glue prior to closing, to avoid that it shifts out of seat and pinching it wrong while closing. But don't know what product to buy. My valve cover was already changed a few months ago.

[Theiceman]

I'm next inline to do that job. I have a A3 8P with BWA engine code.

It sorts of sound like a potatoe right now at idle, with some occasional vibrations and occasional diesel sound. (though no misfire registered in OBD counters read for smartphone apps. maybe it's loose balance shafts, or the bimass flywheel).
I'm considering that ECS kit here: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-assemble...06d109229bkt2/
is this kit ok? I'm worried about the INA cam follower. I want a Febi-Bilstein, because the one I have now is INA, and it was lighter than the OEM one I removed. I have a suspicion it's the culprit for part of the noise.
The car inspection garage put oil additive and the sound has improved.

For the chain job change, I'm stressed about:
- the polydrive bolt
- the 3 round seals on the control valve conduit
- do I need sealant as well as the gasket for the chain cover?
- how many links are there supposed to be between the cam-phaser notch, and the tiny mark on the intake shaft sprocket? I read the mark is supposed to sit between link 9 and 10.
- do you need a long extension to crank the engine?
- I'd prefer to sit the valve cover gasket with a glue prior to closing, to avoid that it shifts out of seat and pinching it wrong while closing. But don't know what product to buy. My valve cover was already changed a few months ago.

looks like the right kit. absolutely no issues with INA. in fact it may be the oem of this part.

first thing you try is the poly bolt, if it strips, you back off and come at it another day, car id still drivable. If it cracks your golden.

those three round seals or rings are available on ebay fairly cheap , just order them before hand just in case.

if you get a factory cover and torque properly no need for sealant. but a small skim coat cant hurt.

read this thread, im not discussing links for the umpteenth time as i go over it extensively with pics.

play with the crank bolt before you start to see what you need.

valve cover gasket needs no sealant or glue. its rubber. when you take the cover off seal will likley remain in the clover.

[Silicon Voodoo]

thanks!!

I went and checked the astral video you mentioned, and got a screenshot of the chain links:


So I'm reassured it is between 9 and 10 links indeed starting from 0. And when other people mention 18-19 it's in fact the hinges count. So seems good to me.

[Silicon Voodoo]

Actually I have another question, do you think you need to remove (or just unbolt and let sit) the spark plugs? So that when you crank by hand there is no compression to resist the turn maybe?

[Theiceman]

Actually I have another question, do you think you need to remove (or just unbolt and let sit) the spark plugs? So that when you crank by hand there is no compression to resist the turn maybe?

sure why not, good time to throw new plugs in.

[Silicon Voodoo]

I already got new plugs though, so that's ok.
I went and ordered the polydrive bit, the schwabben cam locker (not CTA, nor any chinese stuff), the ECS kit. Found 3 seals for cam adjuster on rakuten for ¥5000 (I'm in Japan).
I still have to buy a bit for crankshaft bolt, and the crowbar-like VW tool to pry the intake shaft.

Will spraying anti seize (WD40 or the like) into the cam adjuster bolt will ease its release?

[Theiceman]

Nope

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[Plxa4q7]

Agree with iceman…that bolt is tight as hell. I’ve done the timing chain tensioner on two of my cars…first one was no problem and second one I stripped the cam adjuster bolt recess. My advice would be to get a second set of hands to keep the poly bolt socket (bit) as tight and square as possible to the poly bolt when using the breaker bar to loosen it. When it “breaks” away you will know it, and hopefully it’s the bolt loosening and not stripping of the poly drive recess in the bolt. Good luck!

[Theiceman]

Did you actually read this thread in its entirety ? It almost seems like you didnt, as there are pics showing clearly the pics you posted and tools you can make and methods.
I won't post anymore as every single answer to your questions was already in this thread.
Good luck.

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[Jayz691]

I already got new plugs though, so that's ok.
I went and ordered the polydrive bit, the schwabben cam locker (not CTA, nor any chinese stuff), the ECS kit. Found 3 seals for cam adjuster on rakuten for ¥5000 (I'm in Japan).
I still have to buy a bit for crankshaft bolt, and the crowbar-like VW tool to pry the intake shaft.

Will spraying anti seize (WD40 or the like) into the cam adjuster bolt will ease its release?

A little heat on the polydrive bolt does help.

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[Silicon Voodoo]

A little heat on the polydrive bolt does help.

Thanks. I tried to torch it, and still no luck.
So today is a 4 day off stretch so I thought I could do it, just received my kit from ECS Tuesday.
I dismounted everything up to the dreaded moment: the polydrive bolt.
I used this pistonhead post as a guide, I printed a summary and followed it. It worked pretty well, I kept a video document of the whole operation which I will have to edit properly soon.
But then I arrived at the moment of untightening the polydrive, and even with a relatively long bar (it's a tire bolt bar), I physically can't remove that bolt.
My hands had so much nervous tension, my fingers locked-up in a fist position, couldn't command them to open anymore, that's quite scary.
It took me 7 hours to get there, I cleaned-up the parking and saved the tools/parts waiting for a solution.
The bolt tooths are already half stripped. I think I'll drill the center to render it more malleable, with luck, a hole in the center will allow some outward lock force to relax by collapsing the whole structure inward a micro bit. And secondly I think I should try to impact-wrench it off. Manually I just don't have the stength.

current state of the teeths: https://i.imgur.com/JPpAKAH.jpg

[Theiceman]

Thanks. I tried to torch it, and still no luck.
So today is a 4 day off stretch so I thought I could do it, just received my kit from ECS Tuesday.
I dismounted everything up to the dreaded moment: the polydrive bolt.
I used this pistonhead post as a guide, I printed a summary and followed it. It worked pretty well, I kept a video document of the whole operation which I will have to edit properly soon.
But then I arrived at the moment of untightening the polydrive, and even with a relatively long bar (it's a tire bolt bar), I physically can't remove that bolt.
My hands had so much nervous tension, my fingers locked-up in a fist position, couldn't command them to open anymore, that's quite scary.
It took me 7 hours to get there, I cleaned-up the parking and saved the tools/parts waiting for a solution.
The bolt tooths are already half stripped. I think I'll drill the center to render it more malleable, with luck, a hole in the center will allow some outward lock force to relax by collapsing the whole structure inward a micro bit. And secondly I think I should try to impact-wrench it off. Manually I just don't have the stength.

current state of the teeths: https://i.imgur.com/JPpAKAH.jpg

7 hours ?? Wtf it's like 20 minutes !!

How can you get an impact in ? Is the engine out if the car ? Don't drill.

This is all pretty simple ... Use high quality tools. Make sure cam absolutely can not move. Use long bar and heave quickly so it breaks before stripping.
If it strips remove cradle.. then lift out intake can tonunhook chain .. undo tensioner ..
Not that hard.

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[Silicon Voodoo]

> 7 hours ?? Wtf it's like 20 minutes !!

You must be confusing me for a profesional mechanic or something. Even by other accounts I've gathered this is a 2 to 4 hours operation, even the astral guys needed multiple days. I'm doing this with cheap tools (except for the schwabby camlocker I've tolerated to part with 80$ to get it), I've never been employed anywhere near the car industry. First time for me to ever dig in an engine that much. You are weirdly obnoxious.

The impact will fit because it's not an A4, it's an A3, I've written that already.

[Theiceman]

i meant 20 minutes to get to the bolt... not the whole process.. lol

oh A3... you have to remember we get lots of threads going on and all mixed up ..

the key to this is good tools, especially the polydrive socket. and making sure that cam does not move a mm ( astral they use vice grips, i did too wrapped in denim. ) dont count on the cam alignment tool to hold it...

good luck.

[Jayz691]

There a trick I recently heard, that works nicely(from,what I hear). They used a paste, can't rem 100%, but may have been a lapping compound. Basically something to take up any dpace it the bolt head, around the bit. And it won't compress, so makes the polydrive bit fit more solid. Can't rem where I seen it(here or FB), but seemed to work wonder. I believe his teeth on the bolt were even chewed up a bit. I'll see if I can find the post, to verify what was used.

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[Gowking]

Oh boy doing this on the A3 should be quite a bit easier that on an A4. Best of luck to you Sir!

[Theiceman]

There a trick I recently heard, that works nicely(from,what I hear). They used a paste, can't rem 100%, but may have been a lapping compound. Basically something to take up any dpace it the bolt head, around the bit. And it won't compress, so makes the polydrive bit fit more solid. Can't rem where I seen it(here or FB), but seemed to work wonder. I believe his teeth on the bolt were even chewed up a bit. I'll see if I can find the post, to verify what was used.

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wow that's an awesome piece of info if that works. I think anything that can help would be good.. i do know that the failure rate is higher if doing it slowly which is another common error, as people are fearfull .. has to be a build up of pressure and once the slack is gone heave it quickly to crack it before the bolt can mar up. That compound would help with this.

[Silicon Voodoo]

I just accidently stumbled on this video that talks of such compound. It may be the thing Jayz691 is talking about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDpZfk3l5MA&t=310s

DAP Tank Bond. Never heard of such stuff before, but considering the difficulty of that bolt, I'd definitely put this as a requirement for anyone attempting this job, because ANY help is just necessary.

Tiny update on my "progress": I was afraid that hardened steel would be flat impassive to DIY drill bits. So before buying expensive HSS-G or Cobalt bits, I tried with my current 2.7mm metal bit. It ate through the bolt fine, I made a 2cm hole. Very slowly but fine. I enlarged it up to 4mm with multi usage bits. But the 6.35mm hexagonal heads are actually a separate piece of metal from the bit. So bigger bits started to get stuck, and rotated in the void essentially breaking their sealing in the hex head.
To finish it, I'm looking at [sk11 ironwork drill - amazon japan link]
I'm just afraid that attacking the uneven bolt head with such a large bit will lock the drill all the time. I'd prefer enlarge the pre-hole millimeter by millimeter. But I'd need to get a whole collection of bits for that.
For example [this set] could do it? But they have round shafts? I haven't used non hex shafts before, not sure it would hold tight in the chuck. I have a non locking chuck. It's those stupid modern thing with no key (I don't like it tbh. I prefered the old fashion key chucks).

[Silicon Voodoo]

Alright I published the video of the operation. It's in French, but with luck auto-generated subtitles may work.
The polydrive fight starts at 21':57''
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5AXSKaqQqY
It's messy.
The idle noise is gone now, but there is a new clunk noise at each wheel rotation; when releasing the foot from the gas. That's going to be another story though.

[Theiceman]

Alright I published the video of the operation. It's in French, but with luck auto-generated subtitles may work.
The polydrive fight starts at 21':57''
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5AXSKaqQqY
It's messy.
The idle noise is gone now, but there is a new clunk noise at each wheel rotation; when releasing the foot from the gas. That's going to be another story though.

so long and short of it .. was your project a success ?
well as soon as i saw the tools in the video i knew disaster was coming ... great effort to finally get it out though.

[Silicon Voodoo]

You're right, I cheaped out of a breaker bar since it's 5 times the price of a tire lever, which is a bitter mistake since it eventually costed 2 breaker bars in wrenches and drill bits.
Long story short, the project is a success. No more spurious clacking, no more random diesel tractor noise. Pretty smooth revving noise. I even am under the impression that I regained some horsepower back.
And I bought myself some peace of mind regarding this event:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_80Zw6eIrFs
This was a sudden phenomenon that disappeared the next day, it caused some misfires and loss of power, and that spectacular knock noise as you hear in the video.
The dealer couldn't diagnose anything apart from changing ignition coil & sparks. But I had my eyes on the chain tensioner ever since.

[Marques1]

okay just found some info you guys may know already

You put the copper coloured chain link on the tooth on the exhaust tooth that has the line ( its actually on the adjuster )
then you wrap around the chain and the intake tooth with the dot on it goes between link 9 and 10. This is the ultimate alignment.

this is interesting stuff really

Hey man,

Have you ever heard of issues with this alignment? Off a tooth or not?
I recently lost timing on my a4 and bend most of my valves.
I rebuilt my Head, re-installed my cams, chain (like everyone suggested), and timing marks are perfect for the belt.
Motor runs now but rough as hell , multiple cylinder misfires.

Didn't have time to check compression before doing all this work and will be doing so soon.
Does anyone think that compression issues would cause multiple cylinder misfires?

I can't think of the next steps , I've also cleaned off my spark plugs but doing the same still.
Putting in new ones this week when they get delivered.


Heres are some timing measurements from VCDS:

[Theiceman]

Hey man,

Have you ever heard of issues with this alignment? Off a tooth or not?
I recently lost timing on my a4 and bend most of my valves.
I rebuilt my Head, re-installed my cams, chain (like everyone suggested), and timing marks are perfect for the belt.
Motor runs now but rough as hell , multiple cylinder misfires.

Didn't have time to check compression before doing all this work and will be doing so soon.
Does anyone think that compression issues would cause multiple cylinder misfires?

I can't think of the next steps , I've also cleaned off my spark plugs but doing the same still.
Putting in new ones this week when they get delivered.


Heres are some timing measurements from VCDS:

i never used VCDS when doing mine, i don't think i had it back then .. but if you align it as instructed you should be fine ..

Im not sure i understand your question really..

definitely if timing is off you will get misfires.... also obviously with no compression you will get misfires..

[Jayz691]

Like iceman said, either will cause misfires. But from those readings, your timing isn't off. Readings are great, but a tooth off on either will nocked it much farther out I believe. First, check comp. If good across all 4, then go over everything. Did you install new VVT seals? Clean out the screen in the cover for oil flow to VVT solenoid? Was the engine up to operating temp when you checked those values?

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[Theiceman]

Like iceman said, either will cause misfires. But from those readings, your timing isn't off. Readings are great, but a tooth off on either will nocked it much farther out I believe. First, check comp. If good across all 4, then go over everything. Did you install new VVT seals? Clean out the screen in the cover for oil flow to VVT solenoid? Was the engine up to operating temp when you checked those values?

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i will confess when i did mine i forgot to put the tube back on the PCV ... lol ... idled like a bag of dirt, then noticed the tube on the roof of the car... oops..

[Theiceman]

Hard to believe this thread is still chugging way for almost 5 years now. Just like the car. This is the first year my son bought a winter beater to save his 350K km A4. So it has the winter off... he bought a 500K diesel Jetta.. and guess who got to get that thing on the road...

its actually an awesome little car .. i just hope the trunk doesnt fall off.

[Theiceman]

Well Guys i just reread this entire thread . lots of great contributions from folks .

Car is still chugging away . My son owns a Boxster now, and he was driving a VW Jetta diesel for a while. car has 400K km on it now and exhaust is falling off ( rotted out right at the "y" piece " .. but it is still going. Not bad for a car we almost wrote off 7 years ago.