APR DP UC Boost Levels?

[youngrepublic]

Hi All,
Posting to see if my experience is normal or abnormal. Hitting peak boost between 3-4K RPM at 19-21 PSI, then it tapers to 18-16 PSI through the rev range until the limiter. Anyone have a similar setup that can vouch that this is normal (or perhaps APR itself)? I don't have the means for data logging, so the intent is to see if there's something obviously wrong as this seems counter-intuitive as the supercharger's output should follow in a loose 1:1 relationship with engine speed.

Details:
-APR dual pulley, APR Ultracharger, APR intake, APR UC tune (or at least that's what should be applied), APR CPS, AWE resonated downpipes, AWE Touring exhaust
-91 octane, 2013 S4, 6MT

-Brian

[Works2shoot]

You have 8-10k in mods but no VAGCOM? Call rosstech right now or get on the Classifieds. You need to start logging.


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[youngrepublic]

You have 8-10k in mods but no VAGCOM? Call rosstech right now or get on the Classifieds. You need to start logging.


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The reason for going whole-house APR stage 2+ was that I wouldn't have a reason to do data logging like past experience with aftermarket forced induction kits with VAG cars. I do plan to get my own VCDS in the near future as preferential awareness in addition to the realtime readings out of P3, and yes, it does sound illogical.

[EIAlfonso]

The reason for going whole-house APR stage 2+ was that I wouldn't have a reason to do data logging like past experience with aftermarket forced induction kits with VAG cars. I do plan to get my own VCDS in the near future as preferential awareness in addition to the realtime readings out of P3, and yes, it does sound illogical.

You need to start logging or else the answers you will receive will be guesses

Most folks see low 20's in boost, and hardly bleed any boost

[whiped]

What are you reading boost with? P3 unless you have the analog boost tap reads requested boost I believe.

[Works2shoot]

What are you reading boost with? P3 unless you have the analog boost tap reads requested boost I believe.

The guys at NGP Racing told me that they’ve had nothing but problems with the analog boost tap on the P3 with the 3.0T. They set up dyno equipment and the P3 was wayyyy off with the analog tap.

[whiped]

The guys at NGP Racing told me that they’ve had nothing but problems with the analog boost tap on the P3 with the 3.0T. They set up dyno equipment and the P3 was wayyyy off with the analog tap.

Mine matched up with the dyno perfectly... It does read a bit higher than the MAP sensors though likely due to where the tap is located.

[saxon]

id be willing to bet that they cant run that much boost on the 91 oct and your getting corrections due to knock

[VeeDubbinJetta]

The guys at NGP Racing told me that they’ve had nothing but problems with the analog boost tap on the P3 with the 3.0T. They set up dyno equipment and the P3 was wayyyy off with the analog tap.

Mine seems to be pretty accurate from what I can tell. I am stock engine/tune wise and see ~11.1 psi of boost at max. From what I’ve read stock S4’s will boost about 11 psi.

[fx_warrior]

My two cents is, the biggest issues I've seen so far with APR DP and UC cars on this site has to do with cooling. The biggest question usually is, was your cooling system bled right or bled at all? And since you are losing boost later in the rev range where everything is getting hotter, maybe look into this?

Also is this APR's 1st cooling upgrade or the newly released one? I think I've read that their original cooling system wasn't good enough for ultracharged cars. Don't remember where I saw that, but I'm 90% sure I read that from some experienced peeps. In fact I could have sworn even APR doesn't recommend their first cooling system for ultracharged cars, although I could be dead wrong about that.

And if no one replies with a boost number, look around in either the 1/4 thread started by Loe or the pulley ratio thread, I think people have posted their boost numbers there, but you'll have to look around.

[Loe]

If you bought this set-up under the impression that its a set-it-and-forget-it, you would be correct, it technically is that set-up. However, to maximize the set-up, I would really recommend to log not just the basic boost/timing/AFR value's, but to do a full set of fuel logs. You may be surprised, and may find your answer because there are variances in each car that may not show up at stock or stage 1 levels of performance, but those variances may show up once you go beyond stage 1.


Recent true story:

I had someone who was running poor on the APR UC set-up at the track, and also on the dyno,and after months of trying to figure out what was the issue since the general logs looked clean. Nothing in his logs would have revealed anything was "off" until I asked him to send me a full fuel system log. In his case, his cycle duty for his OEM HPFP was at max (99.98%) after 6,000rpm, and was near max anywhere after 4,500rpm. Even at that cycle duty, his fuel rail pressure was hovering in the 11,000-12,000 kPa range when "spec" is in the 13,000-14,000 kPa range, essentially his HPFP was not keeping up as a normal cycle duty is 60-65%. He was also running meth, so he was able to hit his target lambda's (this is another reason why Simos + meth isn't always "yeah this car is faaaaaaast....." it was essentially a placebo effect until he got to the dyno and 1/4 mile strip), the car needed fuel, and it finally received the fuel the Simos was looking for to allow full performance with an Autotech HPFP. He picked up a healthy 55awhp on a "virtual dyno" and is now grinning ear-to-ear.

[youngrepublic]

If you bought this set-up under the impression that its a set-it-and-forget-it, you would be correct, it technically is that set-up. However, to maximize the set-up, I would really recommend to log not just the basic boost/timing/AFR value's, but to do a full set of fuel logs. You may be surprised, and may find your answer because there are variances in each car that may not show up at stock or stage 1 levels of performance, but those variances may show up once you go beyond stage 1.


Recent true story:

I had someone who was running poor on the APR UC set-up at the track, and also on the dyno,and after months of trying to figure out what was the issue since the general logs looked clean. Nothing in his logs would have revealed anything was "off" until I asked him to send me a full fuel system log. In his case, his cycle duty for his OEM HPFP was at max (99.98%) after 6,000rpm, and was near max anywhere after 4,500rpm. Even at that cycle duty, his fuel rail pressure was hovering in the 11,000-12,000 kPa range when "spec" is in the 13,000-14,000 kPa range, essentially his HPFP was not keeping up as a normal cycle duty is 60-65%. He was also running meth, so he was able to hit his target lambda's (this is another reason why Simos + meth isn't always "yeah this car is faaaaaaast....." it was essentially a placebo effect until he got to the dyno and 1/4 mile strip), the car needed fuel, and it finally received the fuel the Simos was looking for to allow full performance with an Autotech HPFP. He picked up a healthy 55awhp on a "virtual dyno" and is now grinning ear-to-ear.

Thanks, Loe, I was secretly hoping you'd chime in. I'll utilize my friend's VCDS setup soon and post logs.

For the questions above, I'm using the P3 gauge for boost levels and I have the most recent APR CPS system (2.0?) that simply is a larger heat exchanger. Also, I splashed in some E85 in my last fill up and the butt dyno and throttle response just seem a bit crisper.

I recently had one of the intercoolers replaced at the time of installation of the downpipes and the heat exchanger here at Pure Motorsports and they had some seal issues at the supercharger. Something just still doesn't feel right to me as it's using more fuel than normal and though a little hard to judge, seems like it's not closing the throttle 100% on lift.

[Loe]

gotcha. If there is a vacuum leak around the supercharger, you'll get a high idle along with a idle too high code.

[dculber]

Noob question, what is a VCDS do we buy it


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[engineerjet]

Noob question, what is a VCDS do we buy it


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http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/cars/index.php

if youre going to work on your car its worth a look. I'm looking to pick this up soon as well.

[Acejam]

The biggest question usually is, was your cooling system bled right or bled at all?

I went APR dual pulley (no UC) about two months ago and installed their new CPS at the same time. From what I gathered, the new unit is self bleeding. During the first week I removed the reservoir cap to let air out and added coolant as needed. Now things have stabilized. The car runs amazingly well, but it’s also winter here. I didn’t bother cracking open the supercharger bleeder screws as I have read too many horror stories of them breaking.

Are you claiming that one must do more than this?

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[mdelmonico]

If you bought this set-up under the impression that its a set-it-and-forget-it, you would be correct, it technically is that set-up. However, to maximize the set-up, I would really recommend to log not just the basic boost/timing/AFR value's, but to do a full set of fuel logs. You may be surprised, and may find your answer because there are variances in each car that may not show up at stock or stage 1 levels of performance, but those variances may show up once you go beyond stage 1.


Recent true story:

I had someone who was running poor on the APR UC set-up at the track, and also on the dyno,and after months of trying to figure out what was the issue since the general logs looked clean. Nothing in his logs would have revealed anything was "off" until I asked him to send me a full fuel system log. In his case, his cycle duty for his OEM HPFP was at max (99.98%) after 6,000rpm, and was near max anywhere after 4,500rpm. Even at that cycle duty, his fuel rail pressure was hovering in the 11,000-12,000 kPa range when "spec" is in the 13,000-14,000 kPa range, essentially his HPFP was not keeping up as a normal cycle duty is 60-65%. He was also running meth, so he was able to hit his target lambda's (this is another reason why Simos + meth isn't always "yeah this car is faaaaaaast....." it was essentially a placebo effect until he got to the dyno and 1/4 mile strip), the car needed fuel, and it finally received the fuel the Simos was looking for to allow full performance with an Autotech HPFP. He picked up a healthy 55awhp on a "virtual dyno" and is now grinning ear-to-ear.

Loe, have you seen this more on the B8 or the B8.5 cars?


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[Loe]

Lately its been both, at 1st I thought it was isolated to a B8.5, until i saw a few more B8 logs. This is likely one reason you see UC cars all over the map with 1/4 mile times as our car's aren't hyper sensative to fluctuations in DAs as you'd expect

[DBL R]

If you bought this set-up under the impression that its a set-it-and-forget-it, you would be correct, it technically is that set-up. However, to maximize the set-up, I would really recommend to log not just the basic boost/timing/AFR value's, but to do a full set of fuel logs. You may be surprised, and may find your answer because there are variances in each car that may not show up at stock or stage 1 levels of performance, but those variances may show up once you go beyond stage 1.


Recent true story:

I had someone who was running poor on the APR UC set-up at the track, and also on the dyno,and after months of trying to figure out what was the issue since the general logs looked clean. Nothing in his logs would have revealed anything was "off" until I asked him to send me a full fuel system log. In his case, his cycle duty for his OEM HPFP was at max (99.98%) after 6,000rpm, and was near max anywhere after 4,500rpm. Even at that cycle duty, his fuel rail pressure was hovering in the 11,000-12,000 kPa range when "spec" is in the 13,000-14,000 kPa range, essentially his HPFP was not keeping up as a normal cycle duty is 60-65%. He was also running meth, so he was able to hit his target lambda's (this is another reason why Simos + meth isn't always "yeah this car is faaaaaaast....." it was essentially a placebo effect until he got to the dyno and 1/4 mile strip), the car needed fuel, and it finally received the fuel the Simos was looking for to allow full performance with an Autotech HPFP. He picked up a healthy 55awhp on a "virtual dyno" and is now grinning ear-to-ear.

I really need to get a logging setup so I can make sure my car is running healthy.

[bhvrdr]

I went APR dual pulley (no UC) about two months ago and installed their new CPS at the same time. From what I gathered, the new unit is self bleeding. During the first week I removed the reservoir cap to let air out and added coolant as needed. Now things have stabilized. The car runs amazingly well, but it’s also winter here. I didn’t bother cracking open the supercharger bleeder screws as I have read too many horror stories of them breaking.

Are you claiming that one must do more than this?

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Absolutely. I cant help but think this advertising of the CPS being "self bleeding" is going to get folks into trouble thinking their cooling system is working correctly with no bleeding. The APR CPS system sits lower than the supercharger intercooler cores. It may be able to "self bleed" itself (the APR hx) but I dont see how it is going to effectively bleed out air trapped that his higher than itself. This is why things that are supposed to be "set and forget" are really not always. I agree that logging is still very valuable even on the very simple tried and true upgrades that this platform has.

Mike

[Acejam]

Absolutely. I cant help but think this advertising of the CPS being "self bleeding" is going to get folks into trouble thinking their cooling system is working correctly with no bleeding. The APR CPS system sits lower than the supercharger intercooler cores. It may be able to "self bleed" itself (the APR hx) but I dont see how it is going to effectively bleed out air trapped that his higher than itself. This is why things that are supposed to be "set and forget" are really not always. I agree that logging is still very valuable even on the very simple tried and true upgrades that this platform has.

Mike

I suppose I can try and open the screws. When I swapped the HX’s I clamped off the lines, so very little coolant came out once the OEM core was disconnected. I suppose there is always a chance that air got into the system, but I’ve never had any problems (on any car platform) when I’ve added coolant to the reservoir very slowly. Whenever I swapped or disconnected turbos on my race car, of course I would do a full burping procedure.

I guess my point is that I don’t think the intercooler cores ran dry. If there were air bubbles/pockets, then surely the coolant temp needle would change behavior or you’d hear the infamous “Audi coolant slosh” from behind the dash. As you stated, the CPS also sits lower. If one reconnects the clamped lines after installing, coolant will rush into the new core. But on start up, that new core will then bleed itself.


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[bhvrdr]

I suppose I can try and open the screws. When I swapped the HX’s I clamped off the lines, so very little coolant came out once the OEM core was disconnected. I suppose there is always a chance that air got into the system, but I’ve never had any problems (on any car platform) when I’ve added coolant to the reservoir very slowly. Whenever I swapped or disconnected turbos on my race car, of course I would do a full burping procedure.

I guess my point is that I don’t think the intercooler cores ran dry. If there were air bubbles/pockets, then surely the coolant temp needle would change behavior or you’d hear the infamous “Audi coolant slosh” from behind the dash. As you stated, the CPS also sits lower. If one reconnects the clamped lines after installing, coolant will rush into the new core. But on start up, that new core will then bleed itself.


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I dont mean to sound like that is definitely you're issue but it cant hurt to check and log IAT. You can do that with the P3 track pack as well. I replaced my plastic SC bleeders with metal ones from Home depot but I also had ordered some backup ones too which removes the concern you have about stripping them (which is easy to do). If you do strip them dont worry about it. Just head up a screwdriver and shove it in the broken off head and twist. They'll come right out.

Mike

[Acejam]

I dont mean to sound like that is definitely you're issue but it cant hurt to check and log IAT. You can do that with the P3 track pack as well. I replaced my plastic SC bleeders with metal ones from Home depot but I also had ordered some backup ones too which removes the concern you have about stripping them (which is easy to do). If you do strip them dont worry about it. Just head up a screwdriver and shove it in the broken off head and twist. They'll come right out.

Mike

Thanks for the tips. I do have a VAGCOM so I can log. However, my whole point is that I don't have any issues. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[kelseysautobody]

You're better off bleeding at the screws then this rear hose but if you're really worried about the screws breaking this is the highest point in the coolant loop. Remove the bulkhead cover, unclamp the hose and slide it back enough to expose the bleeder hole. Doing it with someone holding RPM's above 2000 and the defroster on high worked well for me.

[bhvrdr]

Thanks for the tips. I do have a VAGCOM so I can log. However, my whole point is that I don't have any issues. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

lol, yeah sorry I think I am responding to you and meaning to respond to the OP anyways, lol


OP you have some great tips. Logging will see if there is an issue. Running 91 winter crap fuel, possible cavitation issues, or even weak fueling are all great suggestions that can be investigated.

Mike

[Melen2120]

Lately its been both, at 1st I thought it was isolated to a B8.5, until i saw a few more B8 logs. This is likely one reason you see UC cars all over the map with 1/4 mile times as our car's aren't hyper sensative to fluctuations in DAs as you'd expect

Think you can post up the list of logging parameters (for a full fuel systems check ) and what to look for ?


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[FlyS4]

There might be a lot of issues here. After all you might need to learn how to work on your own car and figure out problems. When you tune there is no such thing as set and forget. You will always have to monitor your car and fix things related to extra stress due to abnormal power increase from stock. Sorry to say that but if you want the safest bed you should buy a car with desires performance and keep it stock. Preferably new so you have factory warranty that you can just utilize when something brakes. Next step VCDS to log and then interpreting what’s wrong with that set up.

My educated guess would be heat soak due to inferior cooling. It is common to experience when larger crank pulley is installed. Your supercharger is operating way over its efficiency range.


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[p3u]

There might be a lot of issues here. After all you might need to learn how to work on your own car and figure out problems. When you tune there is no such thing as set and forget. You will always have to monitor your car and fix things related to extra stress due to abnormal power increase from stock. Sorry to say that but if you want the safest bed you should buy a car with desires performance and keep it stock. Preferably new so you have factory warranty that you can just utilize when something brakes. Next step VCDS to log and then interpreting what’s wrong with that set up.

My educated guess would be heat soak due to inferior cooling. It is common to experience when larger crank pulley is installed. Your supercharger is operating way over its efficiency range.


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Old thread.

My educated guess is it just wasn't "dialed in."

[FlyS4]

Old thread.

My educated guess is it just wasn't "dialed in."

Lol


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[FlyS4]

Op, did you figure out what the problem was?


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